276 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

Also fair amount that it will

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

This discussion is only relevant if Vivienne is divine as I doubt Cass would approve of using the rite as punishment as she did say she would help the cure be widespread.

Leliana gives mages freedom and I doubt hey would also use the rite as much as the Templars did assuming they use the rite as all

[Addai]

Tranquility is actually retaining the usefulness of the body rather than senselessly killing the mage.

To me it's nothing to use it as a punishment.

In fact I'd argue that principle application has gone overlooked far too long.

So except in exceptional circumstances I'd argue it's a greater kindness. Not to mention in usage of tranquility you allow the mage the retention of free will.

Will is nothing to a corpse.

Inversely there are some whom would do the kindness a disservice and are ultimately unworthy of it.

Those are ones who would simply be executed.

In medieval law, putting out an eye or cutting off a limb used to be seen as mercy and also as instructive. That doesn't make it any less barbaric, still less a kindness.
 

Except no where that I know of in the lore/history/games/books has any mention been made of RoT going wrong and killing a mage. Until such a point where that is noted somewhere, its a really far stretch to think it possible. At this point I would call that another crackpot theory.

And organizations like the templars and Chantry would never stoop to secrecy? Anyway, my objection was not that we know it happens, but that we don't know that it never does, as Warder and br3admax asserted.

We do know of two instances where Tranquility caused death: Karl and Pharamond.

[Master Warder Z_]

Also fair amount that it will

Eh...

It has to appear to Cassandra that it is safe.

*shrugs*

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Eh...

It has to appear to Cassandra that it is safe.

*shrugs*

Forgetting the loyalists mages who also know it considering every circle learned the cure

[Gothfather]

I've always been a bit surprised at the reaction to using Tranquility as a punishment. To me, it is the most vile thing one can to do a person - far worse than just murdering them - because of the way it fundamentally violates their personhood. It's so viscerally offensive when imposed on someone that it's really one of the worst types of punishments one can inflict. In the way torture can mutilate the body forever, tranquility effectively mutilates the soul (especially of a powerful mage, taking away not just everything that makes them who they are, but everything that makes them what they are). 

 

To me, it was always a punishment. A vicious and terrible one, but a punishment nevertheless. So it came as a shock to me that mages would protest my Inquisitor using it as a viscious punishment. To me, that was exposing the truth of tranquility: not some blessing provided to mages who can't protect themselves from demons, but a viscerally abusive and irreparable breach of their autonomy. 

 

 

What I find interesting is that the Tranquil, which are fully functioning on a cognitive and mental level often cite that it was RIGHT to make them tranquil. When they view the situation without the lens of EMOTION aka all the SUBJECTIVE things you cite in you post and just view the situation from an OBJECTIVE stand point there seems to be a very high rate of the tranquil saying their punishment is just. How do you circle that square?

 

Or are you claiming that tranquil are mind controlled or lack a mental capacity to understand? That seems completely counter to what the lore says, it was a TRANQUIL researcher that found out how to reverse it. so there is no claim that the process damages their mental and cognitive abilities. Everything the lore states backs up that the rite only removes the emotional centres of the mind prohibiting a person's ability to "dream." We know, due to the Asunder book, that it doesn't actually sever their connection to the fade it just makes the connection utterly uninteresting to spirits. The Tranquil mind is still creative, they are makers of magical items, they are imaginative enough to think of a scientific hypothesis and test it. Any person who understands science knows that it takes a creative mind to think of theories and the tranquil seem to be able to do that in the lore. So what about  the rite is so inhumane specifically how is it inhumane and why do many of the tranquil seem to agree with the choice post proceedure?

 

The rite is a very humane way to deal with people who can destroy city blocks with a word. In the lore I find it interesting that mages and non mages alike mistreat the tranquil because they can. I think it is high time people stop viewing mages as "innocent." Mages are as far from a beacon of moral fortitude as any other power grasping organization in Thedas. There isn't a single group delineated down any lines, aka cultural, racial or class lines, that isn't guilty of crimes and despicable behaviour. Hell we even learn that the exalted march against the elves wasn't a simple case of Elves minding their own business and big bad evil humans thumped them because they could. We find out it was because of the actions intolerant ELVES that started the first atrocity that allowed intolerant humans to engage in their own atrocities as pay back. Opps all the countless hours people bemoaning the evil humans attacking the helpless innocent elves on BSN all rendered crap with a single quest arc. Hell we saw that the Wardens are also not this wholly virtuous and "can do no wrong" group in both DA:O and DA:I.  What is the moral of the story? Bioware does not make moral absolutes in the Dragon age series, the history, politics and social issues are all much more complex and nuanced then most people want to admit.  It is time mages stop being painted as virtuous saints who never do anything wrong and all actions against them are simple persecutions of evil oppressors. Its is utterly false, its simplistic and it is a disservice to the developers who took the time and effort to give us a more complex story then a dark side and light side of the force delineation of morality.

[Master Warder Z_]

We do know of two instances where Tranquility caused death: Karl and Pharamond.

Both murdered by mages.

[raging_monkey]

Idk if tranqing directly caused there death addai

[Sifr]

Both murdered by mages.

 

Technically, they were mercy-killed... both Karl and Pharamond begged to die rather than be forced to endure Tranquility again.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

What I find interesting is that the Tranquil, which are fully functioning on a cognitive and mental level often cite that it was RIGHT to make them tranquil. When they view the situation without the lens of EMOTION aka all the SUBJECTIVE things you cite in you post and just view the situation from an OBJECTIVE stand point there seems to be a very high rate of the tranquil saying their punishment is just. How do you circle that square?

Or are you claiming that tranquil are mind controlled or lack a mental capacity to understand? That seems completely counter to what the lore says, it was a TRANQUIL researcher that found out how to reverse it. so there is no claim that the process damages their mental and cognitive abilities. Everything the lore states backs up that the rite only removes the emotional centres of the mind prohibiting a person's ability to "dream." We know, due to the Asunder book, that it doesn't actually sever their connection to the fade it just makes the connection utterly uninteresting to spirits. The Tranquil mind is still creative, they are makers of magical items, they are imaginative enough to think of a scientific hypothesis and test it. Any person who understands science knows that it takes a creative mind to think of theories and the tranquil seem to be able to do that in the lore. So what about the rite is so inhumane specifically how is it inhumane and why do many of the tranquil seem to agree with the choice post proceedure?

The rite is a very humane way to deal with people who can destroy city blocks with a word. In the lore I find it interesting that mages and non mages alike mistreat the tranquil because they can. I think it is high time people stop viewing mages as "innocent." Mages are as far from a beacon of moral fortitude as any other power grasping organization in Thedas. There isn't a single group delineated down any lines, aka cultural, racial or class lines, that isn't guilty of crimes and despicable behaviour. Hell we even learn that the exalted march against the elves wasn't a simple case of Elves minding their own business and big bad evil humans thumped them because they could. We find out it was because of the actions intolerant ELVES that started the first atrocity that allowed intolerant humans to engage in their own atrocities as pay back. Opps all the countless hours people bemoaning the evil humans attacking the helpless innocent elves on BSN all rendered crap with a single quest arc. Hell we saw that the Wardens are also not this wholly virtuous and "can do no wrong" group in both DA:O and DA:I. What is the moral of the story? Bioware does not make moral absolutes in the Dragon age series, the history, politics and social issues are all much more complex and nuanced then most people want to admit. It is time mages stop being painted as virtuous saints who never do anything wrong and all actions against them are simple persecutions of evil oppressors. Its is utterly false, its simplistic and it is a disservice to the developers who took the time and effort to give us a more complex story then a dark side and light side of the force delineation of morality.

Do you recall that the times tranquility was cured, both former tranquils said that being made tranquil was worse than death and begged to be killed rather than be tranquil again.

Also, if tranquility is so useful, why not use it on non-mages like death row prisoners or prisoners in general? They can be useful and you don't have to bother wih them in prison or killing them since they have no emotions.

Also, I have a problem with something that results in you being okay with becoming a sex slave

[Master Warder Z_]

Forgetting the loyalists mages who also know it considering every circle learned the cure

Every circle learned of a attempt at the cure.

Nothing detailed was spoken, and considering the Tranquil researcher was murdered by a mage prior to it, only a single mage present of those assembled knew what that cure entailed and that was post conclave.

Reread Asunder.

The Conclave never got to speak of it.

And Rhys can be left to rot in whatever hole the Red Templars dump his corpse in.

[raging_monkey]

Psst Z your getting emotional lol

[Master Warder Z_]

Technically, they were mercy-killed... both Karl and Pharamond begged to die rather than be forced to endure Tranquility again.

Reversing tranquility causes immense and immediate emotional instability. They cannot objectively ask to die, just as a depressed person cannot objectively ask to die.

Frame of mind, perspective, thought beyond immediate consequence.

Those aren't present.

And then Adrian pinning the murder on her comrade to incite violence?

No.

Mercy had nothing to do with either.

It was blind ambition and indifference.

Dogma.

[Xilizhra]

And Rhys can be left to rot in whatever hole the Red Templars dump his corpse in.

Incorrect. There's no place in the game where it's stated that Rhys dies, nor is it an option in the Keep.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Psst Z your getting emotional lol

Seems like he's just mad that he can't oppress mages and is just looking for any inane way to make oppress them.

I suspect he'd love living in the qunari lands considering what they do to mages

[Boost32]

 

 

Twice. You can make Alexius Tranquil.

 

Trice actually, you can make Erasthenes tranquil too.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Incorrect. There's no place in the game where it's stated that Rhys dies, nor is it an option in the Keep.

I'd love to see warder's reaction when the cure for tranquility is discovered anyway regardless of his attempts to stop it

[Xilizhra]

Trice actually, you can make Erasthenes tranquil too.

You can't make both Alexius and Erasthenes Tranquil on the same playthrough.

[Sifr]

Every circle learned of a attempt at the cure.

Nothing detailed was spoken, and considering the Tranquil researcher was murdered by a mage prior to it, only a single mage present of those assembled knew what that cure entailed and that was post conclave.

Reread Asunder.

The Conclave never got to speak of it.

And Rhys can be left to rot in whatever hole the Red Templars dump his corpse in.

 

Actually, the Conclave was assembled because the news of the Cure had become known, furthermore the Divine herself, someone sympathetic to the mages knew of it's existence and while she might want to handle the news delicately, wasn't likely to want to suppress the knowledge?

 

The fact that the Templars ended up collectively soiling themselves and immediately trying to imprison everyone in White Spire for sedition, kinda went far to showing how legit the cure was, because otherwise, why would they have reacted so strongly as they did?

[raging_monkey]

Seems like he's just mad that he can't oppress mages and is just looking for any inane way to make oppress them.

I suspect he'd love living in the qunari lands considering what they do to mages

he actually loathes Winston hehe

[Boost32]

Incorrect. There's no place in the game where it's stated that Rhys dies, nor is it an option in the Keep.

If you don't save him, who does? 

[Br3admax]

Incorrect. There's no place in the game where it's stated that Rhys dies, nor is it an option in the Keep.

The option is to not do any of the war table missions. 

 

This discussion is only relevant if Vivienne is divine as I doubt Cass would approve of using the rite as punishment as she did say she would help the cure be widespread.

Leliana gives mages freedom and I doubt hey would also use the rite as much as the Templars did assuming they use the rite as all

I'd again like to point out that ONLY mages can use the RoT, so why would mages suddenly want to gimp a major source of their income? 

[Master Warder Z_]

Incorrect. There's no place in the game where it's stated that Rhys dies, nor is it an option in the Keep.

Incorrect?

It's the logical conclusion to their war table operation.

Both traitors were rescued by inquisition forces from the red templars that were engaging them.

When the characters in question will later say that if those forces hadn't intervened they would have died?

No.

It's simply the conclusion that occurs outside of the Inquisitor acting on it, like the Nevarran Tevinter war.

Which I also think if I recall correctly.

Has no option in the keep.

[Xilizhra]

If you don't save him, who does? 

No one, because he's not in the Shrine of Dumat if you played In Hushed Whispers. I don't think he was even bound, because Samson didn't need the binding ritual (presumably his armor would do the job, or maybe Corypheus' ability to directly control the Blight would mean that he could wrench Samson away from Mythal on his own).

 

 

The option is to not do any of the war table missions.

That's like saying "if Shepard doesn't play Lair of the Shadow Broker, Liara will never be the Shadow Broker."

[Master Warder Z_]

Actually, the Conclave was assembled because the news of the Cure had become known

To discuss the cure.

As I said.

That never happened.