How on earth can you call it subjective or conjecture?
There is no reason to render magic inert in people who have no magic, so why bother making them tranquil?
Forceful rehabilitation via the sundering of emotions and summary re-education. Or it can be used punitively. Pharamond implies that the "real" person is still inside, with some semblance of awareness, but are effectively "smothered".
When I read it the first time I really tried to remember in what circle she served as Knight-Commander, but hey its at least a minor error who people will not remember, and Bioware have done worse in Inquisition (I'm looking at you Cullen).
Cullen was a acting knight commander.
And Evangeline was knight captain of the white spire.
I'wasn't talking about his title, I was talking about his time at Kirkwall.
I'wasn't talking about his title, I was talking about his time at Kirkwall.
How on earth can you call it subjective or conjecture? Sheer and unbridled terror at being made Tranquil once more was the reaction of the people who've endured that state, in some cases for years?
If you wanted it from the horse's mouth, you can go no further?
Hmm seems to me that you are missing a whole group of people who were made tranquil and rendered untranquil that look back on their tranquil time without horror or terror....
Every seeker of the truth. They did not know they were tranquil but thought they were in a state of meditation so if being tranquil was so utterly horrific and terrible why don't the Seekers of the truth talk about how horrific things are?
So maybe these are a case of a prisoner rather dying then going back to prison. This is known to happen it doesn't make incarceration evil or inhumane intrinsically, just because some people would rather die then go to prison.
I suspect he'd love living in the qunari lands considering what they do to mages
Because it is unfortunately.
You are inserting sentiment into the event.
Your relying on a context that doesn't exist in either case.
Unaltered personal reaction, you are applying that their reaction in their post tranquility state would be their natural one.
Subjective.
Conjecture.
Rather that than prononuced lack of empathy you are viewing them with?
Furthermore I have to dismiss your assertion that they are not "lucid" or "coherent". Both Karl and Pharamond were nothing but those things whenever they spoke to anyone? The only thing that was different between the two was that Pharamond was suffering clear signs of shock and post traumatic stress, but that makes sense because he'd been in that state longer and had a lot of deaths on his conscience?
Under your logic that we cannot accept the words from the mouth's of people who you believe to be not in their right mind... then you'd not listen to someone begging to be let out of the basement that you've imprisoned them in for ten years, because clearly they cannot be in their "right mind" after suffering from that kind of extreme and prolonged stress?
That is essentially no different from what you're saying and if you really believe that, I'm sorry to say, that's more than a little disturbing?
Forceful rehabilitation via the sundering of emotions and summary re-education. Or it can be used punitively. Pharamond implies that the "real" person is still inside, with some semblance of awareness, but are effectively "smothered".
what re-education? There is no mind control and re-education involved that I am aware of, can you cite source of being made tranquil re-educated people?
Hmm seems to me that you are missing a whole group of people who were made tranquil and rendered untranquil that look back on their tranquil time without horror or terror....
Every seeker of the truth. They did not know they were tranquil but thought they were in a state of meditation so if being tranquil was so utterly horrific and terrible why don't the Seekers of the truth talk about how horrific things are?
So maybe these are a case of a prisoner rather dying then going back to prison. This is known to happen it doesn't make incarceration evil or inhumane intrinsically, just because some people would rather die then go to prison.
IIRC, they were made Tranquil for maybe thirty seconds, and had spent a year prior deliberately dulling their emotions to make the transition seamless.
Also, incarceration actually is very often inhumane.
Rather that than prononuced lack of empathy you are viewing them with?
IIRC, they were made Tranquil for maybe thirty seconds
with a "splash" of uniconformismI think Warder hates the Qun more than he hates rebel Mages.
Pro human, pro chantry, and very pro military.
Every seeker of the truth. They did not know they were tranquil but thought they were in a state of meditation so if being tranquil was so utterly horrific and terrible why don't the Seekers of the truth talk about how horrific things are?
Consider where the situations are different: The Seekers were somehow unaware that they were rendered Tranquil, and were cured after a (figuratively) short period. The emotional state of Karl and Pharamond going into the procedure, their memories of being Tranquil afterward, and the duration of their status as Tranquil probably had a significant effect on their mental health after being cured. Though, admittedly I don't know how long Karl was Tranquil.
Also note that the revelation of the procedure drove the Lord Seeker insane... and I believe that wasn't the only time it had happened, because how else would it have been possible for the Order of the Fiery Promise to resurface multiple times throughout history?
what re-education? There is no mind control and re-education involved that I am aware of, can you cite source of being made tranquil re-educated people?
I meant in the extent that it could be easier to direct a Tranquil to act in a lawful manner, whereas it might be harder to "rehabilitate" a non-Tranquil depending on their mental state. Not that I would support its use in such a manner.
IIRC, they were made Tranquil for maybe thirty seconds, and had spent a year prior deliberately dulling their emotions to make the transition seamless.
Also, incarceration actually is very often inhumane.
yawn like any PUNISHMENT it can be abused but that doesn't INHERENTLY make incarceration inhumane. I assumed people know what inherently means but maybe not...
inherently
adjective1. existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute;
The fact that you use the phrase "often inhumane" shows that incarceration is not inherently inhumane.
Also..
um according to Cassandra many don't survive the rite and it lasts until a spirit of faith enters so perhaps you can cite a source that states this is a 30 second ritual?
Nope.
The entire vigil process.
A whole year.
Ameridan doesn't back that up, he comments that it's only a few seconds. The vigil merely prepares them to enter that state.
Nope.
The entire vigil process.
A whole year.
http://dragonage.wik...eekers_of_Truth
"To become a seeker, an initiate must spend months in a vigil. A full year of fasting, prayer, and separation from all distractions- including other people. They empty themselves of all emotion, focusing only on the purity of their devotion. The initiate is then made Tranquil, and the vigil summons a Spirit of Faith to touch the initiate's mind thus breaking the tranquility and giving a seeker their abilities."
The rite was required to achieve the true peace that could draw a spirit of faith from the depths of the Fade. A difficult task, considering a Tranquil mind is all but invisible to these beings. The candidate must be pure.
So the codex says that the candidate must be made pure before becoming Tranquil, otherwise the spirit won't notice them. And the wiki says that the vigil is separate from the Tranquility, which is how I remember it as well. If you have a contradictory source, feel free to state it.
Ameridan doesn't back that up, he comments that it's only a few seconds. The vigil merely prepares them to enter that state.
Also that (I haven't played Jaws of Hakkon yet).
yawn like any PUNISHMENT it can be abused but that doesn't INHERENTLY make incarceration inhumane. I assumed people know what inherently means but maybe not...
inherently
adjective1. existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute;
The fact that you use the phrase "often inhumane" shows that incarceration is not inherently inhumane.
Also..
um according to Cassandra many don't survive the rite and it lasts until a spirit of faith enters so perhaps you can cite a source that states this is a 30 second ritual?
Incarceration is inhumane whenever it's not focused on rehabilitation over punishment. Tranquility cannot exist for the purposes of rehabilitation and is always inhumane.
Also, your line from Cassandra has no bearing on this whatsoever, unless Tranquil mundanes are prone to randomly dropping dead in ways that Tranquil mages don't, and I'm reasonably sure that's never been said. The hard part is everything that comes before Tranquility.
Ameridan doesn't back that up, he comments that it's only a few seconds. The vigil merely prepares them to enter that state.
Thats actually true.
https://youtu.be/HoYpLs5RM8E?t=1m58s
Consider where the situations are different: The Seekers were somehow unaware that they were rendered Tranquil, and were cured after a (figuratively) short period. The emotional state of Karl and Pharamond going into the procedure, their memories of being Tranquil afterward, and the duration of their status as Tranquil probably had a significant effect on their mental health after being cured. Though, admittedly I don't know how long Karl was Tranquil.
Also note that the revelation of the procedure drove the Lord Seeker insane... and I believe that wasn't the only time it had happened, because how else would it have been possible for the Order of the Fiery Promise to resurface multiple times throughout history?
I meant in the extent that it could be easier to direct a Tranquil to act in a lawful manner, whereas it might be harder to "rehabilitate" a non-Tranquil depending on their mental state. Not that I would support its use in such a manner.
oh so you use re-education deliberately and to falsely prejudice the conversation.
The revelation drove the Lord seeker insane? Isn't that like saying violence in video games drove people to commit crimes?
I see no connection to one Lord seeker going off the deep end and Order of the Fiery Promise to resurface multiple times throughout history. please cite for me how every time the Order resurfaced it was because of the seekers.
It's by no means helping him. It would ultimately be worse than the binding ritual.
Cole would disagree. Being tranquil would end his constant agony. I know I'd rather be tranquil than be tortured constantly.
Cole would disagree. Being tranquil would end his constant agony. I know I'd rather be tranquil than be tortured constantly.
Cole's knowledge is incomplete. For instance, he doesn't know of the damage that binding a spirit might do over time, something Solas alludes to when he denies that binding Cole wouldn't be abusive. In any case that's not a statement you can make until you've been Tranquil (and then recovered, so that you can judge how that differs from your complete self).
I'd like to think the "imprison" option actually has him imprisoned here-
http://dragonage.wik...try:_The_Aeonar
Would be better than some random prison, for a mage such as him.
Cole's knowledge is incomplete. For instance, he doesn't know of the damage that binding a spirit might do over time, something Solas alludes to when he denies that binding Cole wouldn't be abusive. In any case that's not a statement you can make until you've been Tranquil (and then recovered, so that you can judge how that differs from your complete self).
I can throw it back at you and say since you haven't been tranquil either your stance is just as invalid. From what i know, I'd rather be tranquil than constantly tortured. Erastanes felt the same as he consents to the decision, yet protests if you decide to just keep him alive to suffer.
EDIT: And Cole doesn't need to be omniscient to know when someone is being helped.
Cole's knowledge is incomplete. For instance, he doesn't know of the damage that binding a spirit might do over time, something Solas alludes to when he denies that binding Cole wouldn't be abusive. In any case that's not a statement you can make until you've been Tranquil (and then recovered, so that you can judge how that differs from your complete self).
Makes you wonder how many demons we've encountered in the game that were bound, actually were done so because they were dangerous demons that people wanted to lock away, or simply Spirits who found themselves trapped for so long that they eventually went nuts?
To quote Aladdin, a bound spirit might essentially live the life of having "Phenomenal cosmic powers... itty bitty living space"
oh so you use re-education deliberately and falsely prejudice the conversation.
Would you prefer "salvage" or "rehabilitate"? You asked how the Rite would be useful with a non-mage offender, and I gave you a use.
The revelation drove the Lord seeker insane? Isn't that like saying violence in video games drove people to commit crimes?
No.
I see no connection to one Lord seeker going off the deep end and Order of the Fiery Promise to resurface multiple times throughout history. please cite for me how every time the Order resurfaced it was because of the seekers.
The Order of the Fiery Promise operates on the belief that the true directive of the Seekers and the original Inquisition was to bring an end to the world so that it may be built anew, and that the currently-existing Seekers of Truth are "false" or fraudulent.
How could this cult keep re-appearing to attack the Seekers for centuries? Very few people know that the Seekers even exist. Fewer still would be familiar with the Order's origins and the history of the first Inquisition. Thus, the safest and most logical assumption that we can make is that the Order of the Fiery Promise is the product of Seekers going rogue.
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