276 réponses à ce sujet

[Gothfather]

http://dragonage.wik...eekers_of_Truth

 

"To become a seeker, an initiate must spend months in a vigil. A full year of fasting, prayer, and separation from all distractions- including other people. They empty themselves of all emotion, focusing only on the purity of their devotion. The initiate is then made Tranquil, and the vigil summons a Spirit of Faith to touch the initiate's mind thus breaking the tranquility and giving a seeker their abilities."

 

The rite was required to achieve the true peace that could draw a spirit of faith from the depths of the Fade. A difficult task, considering a Tranquil mind is all but invisible to these beings. The candidate must be pure.

 

So the codex says that the candidate must be made pure before becoming Tranquil, otherwise the spirit won't notice them. And the wiki says that the vigil is separate from the Tranquility, which is how I remember it as well. If you have a contradictory source, feel free to state it.

 

 

 

Also that (I haven't played Jaws of Hakkon yet).

 

 

Incarceration is inhumane whenever it's not focused on rehabilitation over punishment. Tranquility cannot exist for the purposes of rehabilitation and is always inhumane.

 

Also, your line from Cassandra has no bearing on this whatsoever, unless Tranquil mundanes are prone to randomly dropping dead in ways that Tranquil mages don't, and I'm reasonably sure that's never been said. The hard part is everything that comes before Tranquility.

So it is inhumane to imprison child molesters because psychiatric research shows that we ineffective at rehabilitation? seems to me that if we don't have an effective way to rehabilitate someone by your definition it is inhumane to lock them up. Which leads us to the next question what possible punishment would be humane? They can't be let back into society when they are predatory and we have no means of reliable rehabilitation so is it really inhumane to lock them up? i don't think so.

 

There is no way for the people of Thedes rehabilitate the magic out of a criminal mage except through the rite so is it inhumane to remove magic from the magical criminal? Demon possession is a real thing in DA, it is proven to be a real and non theoretical  danger to both the mage and surrounding people, what humane way should be done to stop people who have shown themselves susceptible to possession? Note it is mages that determine a person failed the harrowing not Templars so don't claim it Templar propaganda and oppression. Should all mage criminal be executed?

 

I make no claim that the rite of tranquillity is harmless, that is can't be abused, nor do I claim it is unicorns and rainbows. But I see zero alternative given to deal with criminal mages other then death, should a mage thief be executed for stealing? What reasonable society could afford to build prisons that a mage couldn't eventually blast out of, that system in place could be implemented that made the personnel safe from blood magic mind control?

 

Seems to me that the rite is a very humane way to solve many issues, it isn't perfect or impossible to abuse but what punishment system is?

[Iakus]

IIRC, they were made Tranquil for maybe thirty seconds, and had spent a year prior deliberately dulling their emotions to make the transition seamless.

 

Also, incarceration actually is very often inhumane.

I actually wonder if such a treatment could potentially replace the Harrowing.

 

Instead of testing to see if a mage can fight off demons, make them outright immune to possession.

[The Baconer]

Seems to me that the rite is a very humane way to solve many issues, it isn't perfect or impossible to abuse but what punishment system is?

 

Tranquility isn't supposed to be used as a punishment.

 

I make no claim that the rite of tranquillity is harmless, that is can't be abused, nor do I claim it is unicorns and rainbows. But I see zero alternative given to deal with criminal mages other then death, should a mage thief be executed for stealing? What reasonable society could afford to build prisons that a mage couldn't eventually blast out of, that system in place could be implemented that made the personnel safe from blood magic mind control?

 

But... Thedas has exactly that type of facility.

[Sifr]

The Order of the Fiery Promise operates on the belief that the true directive of the Seekers and the original Inquisition was to bring an end to the world so that it may be built anew, and that the currently-existing Seekers of Truth are "false" or fraudulent.

 

How could this cult keep re-appearing to attack the Seekers for centuries? Very few people know that the Seekers even exist. Fewer still would be familiar with the Order's origins and the history of the first Inquisition. Thus, the safest and most logical assumption that we can make is that the Order of the Fiery Promise is the product of Seekers going rogue.

 

While this might be possible, at the same time, we saw how just Corin was able to nearly tank the Seekers completely, it doesn't really seem likely that the Seekers could have endured for so long if they kept having themselves nearly destroyed from within every couple centuries or so? Especially since the only people who know the secret the Lord Seekers themselves?

 

Of course, like the Templars, I doubt that the Seekers aren't adverse to rewriting history to cover up certain chapters in their history they'd like to forget, like if some of them went nuts and went rogue? Cass does comment that any problems cause them to close ranks, so it's possible that any rogue Seekers might be dealt with quickly and quietly?

 

But I dunno, having the Seekers be responsible for the creation of their own nemesis, especially more than once throughout their long history, does make me wonder why they'd never have seen that possibility beforehand and taken steps to prevent it before now?

 

I suppose they could have had some precautions they had to prevent this kind of thing happening, but with the outbreak of the Mage-Templar conflict, coupled with Lambert's death, they found themselves facing too many problems at once to deal with?

[Iakus]

 

 

I make no claim that the rite of tranquillity is harmless, that is can't be abused, nor do I claim it is unicorns and rainbows. But I see zero alternative given to deal with criminal mages other then death, should a mage thief be executed for stealing? What reasonable society could afford to build prisons that a mage couldn't eventually blast out of, that system in place could be implemented that made the personnel safe from blood magic mind control?

Azkaban?  

 

 

Seems to me that the rite is a very humane way to solve many issues, it isn't perfect or impossible to abuse but what punishment system is?

It's an alternative, though whether it's better than death is debatable.  Plus the way to reverse it is now widely known and really not all that difficult to implement.

[Sunnie]

I actually wonder if such a treatment could potentially replace the Harrowing.

 

Instead of testing to see if a mage can fight off demons, make them outright immune to possession.

The Harrowing is a test that can only end one of 2 ways, pass; by resisting a demon possession, or fail; and be possessed. In the case of the latter, the possessed mage is killed immediately by the Templar guarding the test. Performing the RoT on a possessed mage would never be able to happen.

[The Baconer]

While this might be possible, at the same time, we saw how just Corin was able to nearly tank the Seekers completely, it doesn't really seem likely that the Seekers could have endured for so long if they kept having themselves nearly destroyed from within every couple centuries or so? Especially since the only people who know the secret the Lord Seekers themselves?

 

I don't see any reason to assume they were nearly destroyed each time. Lucius was working with an excessively fortuitous arrangement that allowed him to do as much damage as he did.

[Lady Artifice]

Azkaban?  

 

Or Aeonar, the Thedasian mage prison. 

 

Which, as Baconer pointed out, exists to keep criminal mages contained. 

[raging_monkey]

Yet conviently forgetton

[Gothfather]

Would you prefer "salvage" or "rehabilitate"? You asked how the Rite would be useful with a non-mage offender, and I gave you a use.

 

 

 

No.

 

 

 

The Order of the Fiery Promise operates on the belief that the true directive of the Seekers and the original Inquisition was to bring an end to the world so that it may be built anew, and that the currently-existing Seekers of Truth are "false" or fraudulent.

 

How could this cult keep re-appearing to attack the Seekers for centuries? Very few people know that the Seekers even exist. Fewer still would be familiar with the Order's origins and the history of the first Inquisition. Thus, the safest and most logical assumption that we can make is that the Order of the Fiery Promise is the product of Seekers going rogue.

I never asked how the rite would be useful to non mages. I never cage the rite in terms of useful EVER people keep putting this notion into my posts I never have.

 

I simply pointed out  that mundane punishments work very well against the mundane because they are... mundane. There is no need to use the rite on the mundane because there is no need to sever magic from the mundane. The rite's purpose is to stop a mage from accessing magic. There is no reason to stop someone with no magic from accessing magic.

 

The seekers of the truth are not a secret society and the history of the seekers isn't forbidden knowledge, so where do you get the idea that very few people know about them? People in power sure as hell know about the seekers, and religious crazy is abundant in DA, there is no reason it must come from the seekers. Masons have been around for centuries but every generation or so some group re-emerges that calls them Satanists, just because some former masons have been among these people doesn't mean every attack on the masons comes from a former mason.

[Sifr]

I don't see any reason to assume they were nearly destroyed each time. Lucius was working with an excessively fortuitous arrangement that allowed him to do as much damage as he did.

 

I agree, it was probably due to the Seekers being forced to have so much divided attention elsewhere that he was able to get as far as he did? If earlier incidents of dissent or insurrection happened within the Seekers ranks, they probably were dealt with or snuffed out far before they could do any lasting damage or gain some kind of foothold?

[Gothfather]

Or Aeonar, the Thedasian mage prison. 

 

Which, as Baconer pointed out, exists to keep criminal mages contained. 

So every nation has the means to create such a prison? For a society to be functional it has to have its own way to effectively deal with it's own criminals in a timely manner. How does one use a single prison for an entire continent using pre industrial travel? How exactly could you transport criminals with magic for months (because that is the time scale here) cheaply, efficiently and safely? Its not feasible and it is not rational to think that is a solution for every nation. How many Templars would it take to put into practise a system that required months of travel time both ways.

[SgtSteel91]

Why come up with punishments and instead come up with ways to help people so they won't be pushed to the point of committing a crime?

[The Baconer]

I simply pointed out  that mundane punishments work very well against the mundane because they are... mundane. There is no need to use the rite on the mundane because there is no need to sever magic from the mundane. The rite's purpose is to stop a mage from accessing magic. There is no reason to stop someone with no magic from accessing magic.

 

The Rite's purpose is to render mages invisible to demons and thus normally immune to possession, for individuals who are suspected to be unable to resist the predations of fade entities for whatever reason.

 

 

The seekers of the truth are not a secret society and the history of the seekers isn't forbidden knowledge, so where do you get the idea that very few people know about them? People in power sure as hell know about the seekers, and religious crazy is abundant in DA, there is no reason it must come from the seekers.

 

The Seekers are a secretive organization, in a world where the vast majority of people are not privy to Circle hierarchy... or educated in history, or even literate where the commoners are concerned.

 

"Who watches powers greater than that of the templars? One assumes it's the Divine, but how much could She know about their activities when their very existence is a mystery to most?" - DA 2 Codex

 

"We harbored secrets and let them fester. We acted to survive, but not to serve." - Cassandra

 

"Few recall there was ever an Inquisition. Those who do believe it predated the Chantry, hunting cultists and mages in a reign of terror that only ended upon its transformation into the Templar Order"  - Genitivi, World of Thedas.

 

 

Masons have been around for centuries but every generation or so some group re-emerges that calls them Satanists, just because some former masons have been among these people doesn't mean every attack on the masons comes from a former mason.

 

... No comment.

[Sifr]

Y'know, I've always wondered how difficult it would be to start mass producing those kinds of anti-magic wards, like the ones in the basement of the Circle Tower that prevents mages from getting into the phylactery chamber? Do they even have a size limit to how large a ward can be?

 

According to the Band of Three, a lot of Kirkwall was designed in the form of unknown sigils, kinda makes me wonder whether or not it'd be possible to figure out how to cover an entire town, village or city with one massive ward?

 

Not saying that people should do that, just something to wonder, at least?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Why come up with punishments

To deter crime.
 

and instead come up with ways to help people so they won't be pushed to the point of committing a crime?

The need for punishment can/will still exist anyway.

[Iakus]

The Harrowing is a test that can only end one of 2 ways, pass; by resisting a demon possession, or fail; and be possessed. In the case of the latter, the possessed mage is killed immediately by the Templar guarding the test. Performing the RoT on a possessed mage would never be able to happen.

RIght and I'm wondering if instead of that, if a mage can be prepared to be made Tranquil, and restored again.  THe immunity to demonic possession and blood magic would do much to calm the people's fear of mages.  

 

Of course, it is a long, arduous process to prepare for it, so this is probably just spitballing at this point.

[Sunnie]

RIght and I'm wondering if instead of that, if a mage can be prepared to be made Tranquil, and restored again.  THe immunity to demonic possession and blood magic would do much to calm the people's fear of mages.  

 

Of course, it is a long, arduous process to prepare for it, so this is probably just spitballing at this point.

And you forget that being made tranquil cuts the mage off from the Fade, thus making the mage unable to use magic or enter the fade (required for the Harrowing).

[Sifr]

And you forget that being made tranquil cuts the mage off from the Fade, thus making the mage unable to use magic or enter the fade (required for the Harrowing).

 

Yeah, Cass mentions early on that it's impossible for Mages to become Seekers, although at the time she doesn't know the reason why?

 

Same reason why we learn in JoH that;

 

Spoiler

Ameridan was never inducted into the Seekers, despite being the Inquisitor, since he'd have lost his magic.

[Hellion Rex]

And you forget that being made tranquil cuts the mage off from the Fade, thus making the mage unable to use magic or enter the fade (required for the Harrowing).

Well, to be fair, we have only seen it reversed in one mage, and it was not long before he was eventually killed by Cole. We do not yet know the full extent of what Pharamond was capable of after having his Tranquility revered. It's possible that he simply could use magic as before, or he could possibly have gained greater resistance to possession and maybe even immunity.

[Hellion Rex]

Yeah, Cass mentions early on that it's impossible for Mages to become Seekers, although at the time she doesn't know the reason why?

Well, that was before she knew the Truth though, right?

 

Part of the problem is that I think the Seekers would not have wanted mages knowing there was a way to reverse Tranquility, let alone let one into their ranks. The "certainty" of Tranquility's permanence was one hell of a weapon to scare mages.

[The Baconer]

Spoiler

Ameridan was never inducted into the Seekers, despite being the Inquisitor, since he'd have lost his magic.

 

Do you know the exact dialogue for that? I don't have the DLC but from the videos I've watched I don't remember Ameridan mentioning that.

 

We know that the idea behind Tranquility being used on mages was inspired by a mage trying to join the Seekers, and failing to attract a spirit (thus remaining sundered from the Fade). I haven't seen anything conclusive that suggests mages cured of Tranquility are permanently deprived of their magic, especially when Seekers themselves gain magical abilities after their vigil. Cassandra and Lambert also state that the cure is dangerous because recipients become emotionally unstable and are thus more vulnerable to possession, which shouldn't be a danger if they are cut off from magic and the Fade. Of course, this could have just been a lie (or ignorance on Cassandra's part) to cover up the truth.

[Hellion Rex]

Do you know the exact dialogue for that? I don't have the DLC but from the videos I've watched I don't remember Ameridan mentioning that.

 

We know that the idea behind Tranquility being used on mages was inspired by a mage trying to join the Seekers, and failing to attract a spirit (thus remaining sundered from the Fade). I haven't seen anything conclusive that suggests mages cured of Tranquility are permanently deprived of their magic, especially when Seekers themselves gain magical abilities after their vigil. Cassandra and Lambert also state that the cure is dangerous because recipients become emotionally unstable and are thus more vulnerable to possession, which shouldn't be a danger if they are cut off from magic and the Fade. Of course, this could have just been a lie (or ignorance on Cassandra's part) to cover up the truth.

In regards to Ameridan, he says that he was not a part of the Seeker Order, and that simply that he was named Head Inquisitor. He mentions nothing about "losing his magic" in reference to the Rite, as far as I am aware.

[Lady Artifice]

So every nation has the means to create such a prison? For a society to be functional it has to have its own way to effectively deal with it's own criminals in a timely manner. How does one use a single prison for an entire continent using pre industrial travel? How exactly could you transport criminals with magic for months (because that is the time scale here) cheaply, efficiently and safely? Its not feasible and it is not rational to think that is a solution for every nation. How many Templars would it take to put into practise a system that required months of travel time both ways.

 

I don't think you could. I cited the existence of the Mage prison, but not to imply that I approve of its use. 

 

The Harrowing, the Rite of Tranquillity, the most significant traditions of the southern circle system are deeply rooted in Andrastian religious principles and their prejudices. They'll tell you that none of the denizens of the Fade are to be trusted, that possession is incurable. 

 

Beneath all that, there's the inherent implication that it doesn't matter if a few weaker Mages die in the harrowing, if it protects masses of "innocent people." Part of that is math and cold logic. It isn't an unreasonable perspective, as pragmatism goes, but it is pragmatism. It's trading this life for that life, while regarding one person's life as fundamentally less valuable, less innocent and worth protecting, than another person's.

 

Well, we now know that possession isn't incurable, and that Fade entities aren't simple. They were able to deal with Connor in DAO, not simply or easily, but they did potentially manage it. We know that the Chantry perspective, which informs the functions of the circle, is lacking the nuance of the full picture. 

 

JoH spoiler:

 

Spoiler

 

The Avaar have instituted Spirit possession and de-possession in some of their most basic rituals. 

 

 

They could study magic, really study, with a goal toward innovation and improvement. Toward a way to treat Mages like their lives are worth preserving, even if it can't be done cheaply. They could train a Mage toward dealing with demons and the temptations of the Fade steadily without deciding, "Whelp, it's now or never. You know roughly what's waiting because we woke you up in the middle of the night and informed you. Now get out there and prove you deserve to survive."

 

Doing so would potentially negate the general need for Tranquility in the first place. 

 

But the Andrastian distrust of magic and the fade is such that talk of that is never entertained. Instead they go with, "this is how it always has been done, and it is how it must be done. It just is." 

 

I don't believe there is a way to make the changes necessary to render the circle functional, easily or cheaply, or without significant upheaval and conflict. 

 

But that difficulty wouldn't make those changes impossible, or unworthy of attempting, in my opinion.

[Sifr]

In regards to Ameridan, he says that he was not a part of the Seeker Order, and that simply that he was named Head Inquisitor. He mentions nothing about "losing his magic" in reference to the Rite, as far as I am aware.

 

True, he never says that in so many words, although one would presume that the reason he never became part of the Seekers, nor underwent the Rite was because it wouldn't work on him (or rather, would work too well), making it pointless?