49 réponses à ce sujet

[jerky]

I find this to be a very interesting use of abilities.  Once again thanks to Drasca for finding out something unconventional and cool.

 

I've been using Agony with a frost rune and Walking Death with a fire rune.  So with an ability like spinning blades or Flashing Steel, I get crazy procs on chain lightning and walking bomb, plus elemental damage. 

[Eyecon74]

Gift of Talons (procs hidden blades) also triggers when using Luka's elemental mines, lots of fun to be had with the extra's on these weapons, its not all about DPS..

[Jackyl]

I salvaged my Audacity Was fun and all, but just didn't fit the whole sneaky stealthy rogue archetype to me. Now there is an upfront in your face type rogue it would be perfect on, and it's gone.

[Proto]

 

Don't mind me, I'm just having fun here.

 

The best weapon for Duelist is not the Dragon Dagger it seems, but the level 10 unique Audacity, followed by the Nameless Blade. The target explodes for 75% weapon damage, and +5% damage per enemy within 8 meters masterwork effects respectively. The Dagger of the Dragon is my main-hand weapon here.

 

Be on the look-out for daggers with interesting effects to use as your off-hand weapon.

 

My buddy has been doing this the past 2 nights. Some cheeeese.

[Cryos_Feron]

my Wicked Grace gives 10% chance for poison

my Agony gives 10% chance for Chain lightning

 

 

Would this mean that there is a 20% chance for ANYTHING to happen ?   :-)

Or maybe even a 1% chance that both effects are applied?

[jamdjedi]

nice! I have an AOE mainhand because I'm lazy and like to hit multiple targets, I have a higher DPS single attack dagger but I like the AOE animation. Now I can put my lvl 10 off purple hand that has neat bonuses on again!

 

another question.. is it worth to put runes on off hand? Granted most have us have a bunch of runes stacked.. but that would be great info for starting players

[yarpenthemad21]

my Wicked Grace gives 10% chance for poison
my Agony gives 10% chance for Chain lightning
 
 
Would this mean that there is a 20% chance for ANYTHING to happen ?   :-)
Or maybe even a 1% chance that both effects are applied?

http://en.wikipedia....ability_theory)

so
19% chance for anything
1% for both

[Cryos_Feron]

OK... but my meaning rather is:
what has the game intended for this.

because many things related to DW and combat as a whole seem pretty "random" or even strange to me

[yarpenthemad21]

OK... but my meaning rather is:
what has the game intended for this.

because many things related to DW and combat as a whole seem pretty "random" or even strange to me

why random?

I would say it's strangely logical and well made.
Base damage from weapons is separate. Bonuses from both weapons sum up. Masterwork bonus (so this 10% for something) is also a bonus. Default weapon for ability base weapon damage calculation is right hand. Only few skills use offhand for this (and they animation shows it like e.g twin fangs).

Duelist can exploit it because all crossbow skills are generic skills, so use mainhand, even skills like flashing steel are still mainhand. The same ambush. If you add to it that you don't use autoattack that much on duelist you can change offhand and take instead of higher damage, some better stats or masterwork effects.
Drasca showed example of audacity, low level dagger with an effect of explosion on kill. This effect works in that way that every target you kill explodes dealing 75% damage of the killing blow. So if you killed something with BroadSide and this skill can when crit hit like truck you will probably wipe whole group.

[ParthianShotX]

Audacity is my main weapon for everything in life.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

Gift of Talons (procs hidden blades) also triggers when using Luka's elemental mines, lots of fun to be had with the extra's on these weapons, its not all about DPS..

Hmm maybe I'll use that dagger again on my alchemist. Elemental mines + upgrade for extra mines + 50 stamina amulet. That could be fun

[Ploidz]

Gift of Talons (procs hidden blades) also triggers when using Luka's elemental mines, lots of fun to be had with the extra's on these weapons, its not all about DPS..

 

Yeah I loved doing this, seeing multiple enemies get hit by hidden blades is satisfying. The Gift isn't as low level as Audacity so it's ok for Alchemist's auto attack. The thing about Duelist is that it appear she rarely have to use auto attack (I just started playing her yesterday and after reading this thread).

[Drasca]

why random?

 

Because he, like others, cannot math in part because it is hard to observe, and it is work to figure out, so they chose to not even try and call it random.

[Drasca]

My buddy has been doing this the past 2 nights. Some cheeeese.

 

What can I say? Isabella likes the boom boom.

[BraveLToaster]

Yeah, I tried this out after seeing you mention Nameless in another topic and being sad when I realized I didn't have one anymore.  Good thing I figured that there might be some future gimmick use for explosions.

[BreakJohn]

very nice indeed, sadly i don't have the audacity. however i do have the nameless blade and gift of the talons. this definitely temps me to play around with a few off-hand daggers. 

[K_A_Rnage]

I tried this. It is AWESOME!!
Broadside still crits for 5k and everything within 5 meters DIES. Haven't got it to chain across the map yet but I suck at Isa.
Thanks for the tip Drasca

[Altair_Snake]

Thanks for showing me parried. I had never used it or even seen it.

 

Are the abilities damage calculated by the main hand weapon only?

[Drasca]

Thanks for showing me parried. I had never used it or even seen it.

 

Are the abilities damage calculated by the main hand weapon only?

 

Most, not all.

[Cryos_Feron]

Because he, like others, cannot math in part because it is hard to observe, and it is work to figure out, so they chose to not even try and call it random.

Thanks Drasca ;-)


I got this impression.

Maybe also because I played this game from the first day.

And you know how many, many, many items and abilities either did nothing, the opposite or just something else.
How the tooltipps just said something completely else. It left a really strange and "random" impression.


But you are right, when I think about this today, the combat system makes a little more sense.

Only: I cannot understand so many things.

For example the idea to make the whole system solely dependent on the Weapon,
completely ignoring the character as a whole. You can only buff it a little through the passives.

there are so many other things, for example THIS very thread.
WHY could I put a super low level dagger on the off-hand and still do way more damage at the end.
How could anyobody know that the damage ONLY comes from main hand, while the off-hand properties
are COMPLETELY taken into account.

And then, AGAIN there are all those irregularities I spoke about (Flank Attack using the off-hand, etc.)

(think of bleeding, etc.
or of other characters like the Arcane Warrior barrier evo that results in a faster depleting barrier, etc....etc.)

it is just that you read a great ability (like the one of the dynamo staff) but you feel like it probably won't work properly or in a different way = RANDOM

or you have an armor that sunders or does bleeding
and you think: how can an armor do that??

then there is so much jewelry that was just taken out of single player that doesn't make sense in multiplayer.
you think: yes! a unique accessory!!
only to be left head shaking and disappointed.

feels random.



The only thing I am saying is:
There are just so many things no experienced RoleplayGamer (who has seen the classic combat and character systems)
would have thought or anticipated - unless he reads in Forums like these.

Therefore I (mistakenly) used the word "STRANGE" or "RANDOM" because that was the impression I could not help but get.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Yeah, I've been using Wicked Grace and Walking Death once I noticed the WB proc has (subjectively) better CC on the Duelist than Agony. Sadly I do not have Audacity though... That would be tons better to me for the knock down over a 10% WB proc.

(Yes, the Duelist is shaping up to be quite the dark horse Controller)

[Cryos_Feron]

and Drasca (or yarpenthemad) :

if you think that the system is so logic,

how come that so many people thank you in this thread for finding this out?

because they never would have anticipated this...

and this is just one example

[yarpenthemad21]

Thanks Drasca ;-)


I got this impression.

Maybe also because I played this game from the first day.

And you know how many, many, many items and abilities either did nothing, the opposite or just something else.
How the tooltipps just said something completely else. It left a really strange and "random" impression.


But you are right, when I think about this today, the combat system makes a little more sense.

Only: I cannot understand so many things.

For example the idea to make the whole system solely dependent on the Weapon,
completely ignoring the character as a whole. You can only buff it a little through the passives.

I would say that I've played many many many rpgs, mmos, and DAI system is one of the "cleanest".

In other games abilities tend to have their own damage values which scales most of the time with other stats.
Here it's simple. Base damage from weapon is your start (don't look at "dps stat" on weapon, it's for babies).
Now abilities are made around % value of base damage. Great. You can easily compare skills without even knowing how math goes.

Next are stats. They are also very clean. %attack gives just damage. It's also very good that we have one stat for, not seperate ones. If you attack value is +100% you deal twice as damage. Simple. % is additive so it's also logical.
Crit and crit damage works like in other games, nothing new. What is hidden (and I would say that for some reason 100% games does not show it) is which bonus damage is additive which is multiplicative. Probably game devs don't want to show formulas or just think that we sucks at math.

there are so many other things, for example THIS very thread.
WHY could I put a super low level dagger on the off-hand and still do way more damage at the end.
How could anyobody know that the damage ONLY comes from main hand, while the off-hand properties
are COMPLETELY taken into account.

Imagine situation. You have 2 weapons in hand.Flaming Dragon dagger of ultimate destruction and butter knife. Your special "ability" is called "Staby!". Which hand would you use?

It's very logial approach. Stats are shared (like in Sword + shield you get stat from both weapons and that's looks normal, isn't it?), but base damage is calculated based on weapon used in skills. If twin fangs use 2 weapons at once we have 2 seperate attacks.
But what with skills not that based on dagger attack?
Just take main hand weapon. Like in other classes. It's very logical. Offhand can either does not exists, be a dagger or be a shield. So it's logical that default this be main hand and only few skills, made around one typical version of rogue can use dagger in offhand.
Deathblow use mainhand for first attack, offhand for second attack, animation shows it. Flank attack use offhand only.

(think of bleeding, etc.
or of other characters like the Arcane Warrior barrier evo that results in a faster depleting barrier, etc....etc.)

Barrier is scaled of base damage.
max_barrier = (base_damage + 10) * 48 - 300
and
default barrier decay rate is 8.33% barrier per second.

They just made it that way. They made barrier scaled with damage so, values aren't fixed on level 1 in SP you have maybe 300 on 20 you have 5k.
So now how you want to program depleting of barrier? % of value every second is best and pretty much only working approach.

Because strength of spirit changes this "max_barrier" by 50%. If you use barrier spell it would last the same amount of time but it would be stronger (so can absorb more damage)

AW don't cast spell for barrier but his damage is changed into barrier. With this passive his maximum potential barrier is 50% higher, so he needs to deal more damage to get to full barrier. But depleting is still this 8.33% per second of max barrier. In raw numbers it's now 50% more points of barrier now, that's why for AW this passive is not that useful. Still they changed it in that way that fade shield has better % values.

it is just that you read a great ability (like the one of the dynamo staff) but you feel like it probably won't work properly or in a different way = RANDOM

Bugs are everywhere. Skyrim needs around couple of GB unofficial patches to be playable.

or you have an armor that sunders or does bleeding
and you think: how can an armor do that??

then there is so much jewelry that was just taken out of single player that doesn't make sense in multiplayer.
you think: yes! a unique accessory!!
only to be left head shaking and disappointed.

feels random.

It's not random. You use of random is not even close of definition.
+ stats on armor in most cases are those "defensive", so it's bleeding when you get hit (changed to sunder now). Imagine armor with spikes.

The only thing I am saying is:
There are just so many things no experienced RoleplayGamer (who has seen the classic combat and character systems)
would have thought or anticipated - unless he reads in Forums like these.

Therefore I (mistakenly) used the word "STRANGE" or "RANDOM" because that was the impression I could not help but get.

As a rpg player from old days in games like baldurs gate, paper rpgs like warhammer and d&d, many mmo games, many other systems (Dark Eye for example) I can say that that DAI system if very logical and clean, perfect for action based combat. Yes there are bugs but even for bioware I would say that aren't that many. I remember bug in DA:O in which dexterity didn't apply damage to bows and daggers at all. DAI has nothing even close to that type of huge bug in mechanic.

[Cryos_Feron]

I would say that I've played many many many rpgs, mmos, and DAI system is one of the "cleanest".

In other games abilities tend to have their own damage values which scales most of the time with other stats.
Here it's simple. Base damage from weapon is your start (don't look at "dps stat" on weapon, it's for babies).
Now abilities are made around % value of base damage. Great. You can easily compare skills without even knowing how math goes.

Next are stats. They are also very clean. %attack gives just damage. It's also very good that we have one stat for, not seperate ones. If you attack value is +100% you deal twice as damage. Simple. % is additive so it's also logical.
Crit and crit damage works like in other games, nothing new. What is hidden (and I would say that for some reason 100% games does not show it) is which bonus damage is additive which is multiplicative. Probably game devs don't want to show formulas or just think that we sucks at math.



Imagine situation. You have 2 weapons in hand.Flaming Dragon dagger of ultimate destruction and butter knife. Your special "ability" is called "Staby!". Which hand would you use?

It's very logial approach. Stats are shared (like in Sword + shield you get stat from both weapons and that's looks normal, isn't it?), but base damage is calculated based on weapon used in skills. If twin fangs use 2 weapons at once we have 2 seperate attacks.
But what with skills not that based on dagger attack?
Just take main hand weapon. Like in other classes. It's very logical. Offhand can either does not exists, be a dagger or be a shield. So it's logical that default this be main hand and only few skills, made around one typical version of rogue can use dagger in offhand.
Deathblow use mainhand for first attack, offhand for second attack, animation shows it. Flank attack use offhand only.


Barrier is scaled of base damage.
max_barrier = (base_damage + 10) * 48 - 300
and
default barrier decay rate is 8.33% barrier per second.

They just made it that way. They made barrier scaled with damage so, values aren't fixed on level 1 in SP you have maybe 300 on 20 you have 5k.
So now how you want to program depleting of barrier? % of value every second is best and pretty much only working approach.

Because strength of spirit changes this "max_barrier" by 50%. If you use barrier spell it would last the same amount of time but it would be stronger (so can absorb more damage)

AW don't cast spell for barrier but his damage is changed into barrier. With this passive his maximum potential barrier is 50% higher, so he needs to deal more damage to get to full barrier. But depleting is still this 8.33% per second of max barrier. In raw numbers it's now 50% more points of barrier now, that's why for AW this passive is not that useful. Still they changed it in that way that fade shield has better % values.



Bugs are everywhere. Skyrim needs around couple of GB unofficial patches to be playable.


It's not random. You use of random is not even close of definition.
+ stats on armor in most cases are those "defensive", so it's bleeding when you get hit (changed to sunder now). Imagine armor with spikes.


As a rpg player from old days in games like baldurs gate, paper rpgs like warhammer and d&d, many mmo games, many other systems (Dark Eye for example) I can say that that DAI system if very logical and clean, perfect for action based combat. Yes there are bugs but even for bioware I would say that aren't that many. I remember bug in DA:O in which dexterity didn't apply damage to bows and daggers at all. DAI has nothing even close to that type of huge bug in mechanic.

If you are an old-school-roleplayer you'll probably agree that in RPG's everything is about the Character-development whereas in Shooters (for example) it is more about the weapons.

 

Well - in DAI we have the situation that a level 1 character (is allowed to!) wield an OP-weapon and destroys (almost) everything.

 

I am not sure if I like that - but at least I am starting to understand what the devs had intended.

 

However, it certainly is not (oldschool) roleplay-like !

 

I will never forget how I got the Bow of Cruel Redemption in my (like) second chest and destroyed everything with my level 1 rogue.

So, please tell me: Where was the character development here?

 

 

I used the word "Random" because I had the German word "willkuerlich" in my mind.

And I already admitted that it may have been the wrong word.

 

 

 

sure - bugs are everywhere.

But what are we here talking about?? About what extent? 

I can only speak for myself but I did not trust ANY tooltip anymore.

Especially if it was an "interesting" ability like of "the staff of the Dynamo" I almost knew that it wouldn't work.

So, here I consider my argument justified.

 

 

 

Anyways, we may not have the same point of view and will never have,

 

but at least you (hopefully) see that I did not say it just like that

(what Drasca thought) - I really have my (personal) reasons.

[yarpenthemad21]

If you are an old-school-roleplayer you'll probably agree that in RPG's everything is about the Character-development whereas in Shooters (for example) it is more about the weapons.
 
Well - in DAI we have the situation that a level 1 character (is allowed to!) wield an OP-weapon and destroys (almost) everything.
 
I am not sure if I like that - but at least I am starting to understand what the devs had intended.
 
However, it certainly is not (oldschool) roleplay-like !
 
I will never forget how I got the Bow of Cruel Redemption in my (like) second chest and destroyed everything with my level 1 rogue.
So, please tell me: Where was the character development here?
 
 

I used the word "Random" because I had the German word "willkuerlich" in my mind.
And I already admitted that it may have been the wrong word.

 
 
 
sure - bugs are everywhere.
But what are we here talking about?? About what extent? 
I can only speak for myself but I did not trust ANY tooltip anymore.
Especially if it was an "interesting" ability like of "the staff of the Dynamo" I almost knew that it wouldn't work.
So, here I consider my argument justified.
 
 
 
Anyways, we may not have the same point of view and will never have,
 
but at least you (hopefully) see that I did not say it just like that
(what Drasca thought) - I really have my (personal) reasons.

Main problem of those "paper" systems rpgs is simple. They scale just horribly.
Even games which implements this shows this. D&D 2.5 (or 3.0) which was in baldurs gate worked fine. But there max level was around 7-8.
Baldur's gate 2 made max level around 20, expansion even more. Mechanic made around hitting target just disappeared, it was pretty much 100% all the time. Add to it classes with 1 attack per round limit and those who could get to even 5. Whole system in sense of any balance just collapsed.
The same problem has even warhammer. You can't level up to highest levels because there is no point in having 100% chance for everything.

System made around some basic stats, which can be extended to pretty much infinity scale way better. Most mmos use this type of system, DAI use it and IMO it's great decision. They can easily for example scale enemies in SP, balance can be changed by number tweaking and it is more "stable".
As for the weapon as the main part of character. It's mmo system. All of them are made around gear progression so this gear need to matter. Even in oldschool games there was some artifact boosting character. You always wanted to get better gear. This concept is just a step further.
This "OP" does not exists on SP that much. Items in SP have level requirement and even crafting is somewhat limited either by resources or by recipes. In theory 1 level character can equip in SP high end crafter weapon but without some sort of cheating it's impossible to make it.
MP is made around promoting, so playing 1->20 level all the time. Level requirement here is just stupid idea. First nobody want to change weapons every level and nobody want to use best weapon he has on 2 last levels.

So to sum up. From my experience systems similar to those paper ones, so ones made around some starting set of stats (sometimes many of them) and some progression of effectiveness around them in dice rolls scale poorly. All of them have their limit, max level, whatever you called it and you can't go further because it will break mechanic (100% chance problem, or >100% chance problem).
System like this in DAI does not have it problem. For now in SP we can talk about max level around 25+ but this limit is more around skills and it's limited number, not mechanic. You could have 100 level, 10 times stats and it still would work, you should just scale enemies also. Haakon Jaw dlc is great example. They "tweaked" stats around those enemies so there is a fun challenge at the end. I wish for even harder, as power gamer I love challenge, but this was fun.