334 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

The S&M ideology as it is now surfaced in the 1700s under wealthy noblemen who would hire mistresses to service them. These nobles had pain fetishes many times, so this entire practice became known as "BDSM". It was a very low-profile, low-brow sexual lifestyle that was rightly criminalized for many years, and by the early 1900s it had lost most of its steam and nearly faded as just a bad memory of antiquity. Until the 1960s, when Hippies and ProgLibs brought back old-style sex practices under the guise of it being 'free love', forgetting that things like S&M destroyed families, relationships, and lives in the nobility and elsewhere.

 

That was an addition to my main post. If you think "Enjoying Sex" is reason enough to do it, then you should advocate for the legalization of things like making love to your horse or your car, amongst other things. After all, it's enjoyable sex, right? OMG DONT TAKE MY FREE SEX AWAY!!!

 

S&M caused great distraught amongst married families, which was mostly the fault of those partaking, yes, but it was rightly criminalized to help them, along with adultery. Both these things are now legal, unfortunately.

 

It was never a harmless sex practice, and never has been.

 

WHICH, BACK ON TOPIC SO WE STOP DERAILING THIS THREAD THEN BLAME IT ON HANDSOME JACK

 

Is why it doesn't belong in Dragon Age. It makes no sense in Dragon Age's society, and S&M character like Bull are walking parodies, hollow husks of what writing once was.

 

IB was a pretty crap-tastic character, I agree.

 

Because of what you post....

 

Handsome Jack is one of the few interesting posters to me here so sorry but I don't see this "horror" that everyone else does when he (she?) posts.

 

On the other hand, as far as this goes there are BDSM people who seem to go places which I find sort of unfathomable and quite insane. There are also some to actively mix it with sex and seem to use it as just kind of an aid or connection to sex or promiscuity, which I don't really find so crazy but it doesn't seem to connect as well. On the other hand, there are those who are just as interested in being tied up once or twice in a kind of fairly monogamous/virginal sort of context and that doesn't seem so crazy to me (again, almost virginal etc).

[vertigomez]

I don't think you can have a civil discussion when one party is being referred to as deviant criminal scum that's undermining societal foundations.

Just sayin'.

[KaiserShep]

I don't think you can have a civil discussion when one party is being referred to as deviant criminal scum that's undermining societal foundations.

Just sayin'.

Of Lovecraftian proportions. You can't forget that part.

[Grieving Natashina]

 

This has been one of the more surreal reads I've seen in awhile...

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Intercourse of any sort and discussions thereof should be kept private, as a matter of civility and respect. I don't see people glorifying what they do in the bathroom remotely as much as what they do in the bedroom. I don't blame him in thinking of it as deviant.

 

This is still ultimately irrelevant, but the thread ran its course a long time ago, anyway, IMO.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Could we talk about something else but Handsome Jack please? I really don't want to sit down and write a long essay on why he is completely wrong, with credible sources and everything.

 

Do we really need to have history lessons in here? Do we really need certain sexual practices explained? Do we really need to analyze his posts for his manipulative choice of words?

[Seraphim24]

I don't think you can have a civil discussion when one party is being referred to as deviant criminal scum that's undermining societal foundations.

Just sayin'.

 

Eh people are untitled to their opinions, I don't think you can say, it's ok to express disagreement, but not strong disagreement. Attempting to moderate the severity of the opinions amounts to censorship of a kind.

 

I think he makes some salient points too, it really is an era of relatively open sexual activity and such, people who are more traditional and such often feel quite marginalized.

 

I'm not sure it's impossible to harmonize people's different perspectives though.

[vertigomez]

Intercourse of any sort and discussions thereof should be kept private, as a matter of civility and respect. I don't see people glorifying what they do in the bathroom remotely as much as what they do in the bedroom. I don't blame him in thinking of it as deviant.
 
This is still ultimately irrelevant, but the thread ran its course a long time ago, anyway, IMO.

Uh... why? No one's asking you (or him, or whoever) to broadcast their sexual proclivities if they don't want to. But treating it like a dirty secret or like OTHER people ought to be ashamed if they so much as talk about it is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Eh people are untitled to their opinions, I don't think you can say, it's ok to express disagreement, but not strong disagreement. Attempting to moderate the severity of the opinions amounts to censorship of a kind.

 

I think he makes some salient points too, it really is an era of relatively open sexual activity and such, people who are more traditional and such often feel quite marginalized.

 

I'm not sure it's impossible to harmonize people's different perspectives though.

 

Yeah, I don't think direct insults, false accusations, twisted facts and outright lies count as opinion.

 

Asking for a civil discussion while not being civil yourself... that's not going to work.

 

Just an example: "You are a disgrace to the human race, people like you should not be allowed to breed, we should just get rid of you as quickly as possible. That's just my opinion though." ... Would that be okay? I kind of doubt it. It's not really something you can discuss or find a compromise for.

[Lady Artifice]

I'm not sure it's impossible to harmonize people's different perspectives though.

 

It can be awfully difficult when insults and personal attacks are in use, which is what most people are actually condemning here. 

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Yeah, I don't think direct insults, false accusations, twisted facts and outright lies count as opinion.

 

Asking for a civil discussion while not being civil yourself... that's not going to work.

 

Just an example: "You are a disgrace to the human race, people like you should not be allowed to breed, we should just get rid of you as quickly as possible. That's just my opinion though." ... Would that be okay? I kind of doubt it. It's not really something you can discuss or find a compromise for.

 

Technically, that still works as an opinion; it's just that it's a really crappy and baseless one. I don't think that the opinion of "sexual activity should be kept private" is comparable to such an opinion, though. I just mean that not all of his opinions were baseless.

[DomeWing333]

Intercourse of any sort and discussions thereof should be kept private, as a matter of civility and respect. I don't see people glorifying what they do in the bathroom remotely as much as what they do in the bedroom. I don't blame him in thinking of it as deviant.

What people do in the bathroom isn't nearly as varied or interesting as what they do in the bedroom. And what people do in the bedroom can be quite a large part of a relationship. So if you're going to have a game that tries to faithfully depict romantic relationships, sex is a perfectly valid thing to explore. In all its weird, icky glory.

[Seraphim24]

Yeah, I don't think direct insults, false accusations, twisted facts and outright lies count as opinion.

 

Asking for a civil discussion while not being civil yourself... that's not going to work.

 

Just an example: "You are a disgrace to the human race, people like you should not be allowed to breed, we should just get rid of you as quickly as possible. That's just my opinion though." ... Would that be okay? I kind of doubt it. It's not really something you can discuss or find a compromise for.

 

I don't know what facts or false accusations is he making? If people wanted to highlight those that might be meaningful or helpful. There are most definitely probably instances where S&M has gone off the rails and probably destroyed relationships. There are probably instances of regular old cheating doing that too. Also yes "You are a disgrace to the human race..." is still fundamentally an opinion, a harsh one, sure, but it's still just words on a page.

 

Sorry but I think asking for "civility" here is asking for censorship mostly.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Technically, that still works as an opinion; it's just that it's a really crappy and baseless one. I don't think that the opinion of "sexual activity should be kept private" is comparable to such an opinion, though. I just mean that not all of his opinions were baseless.

 

Sure, the problem is... some of the things he said, especially in the deleted hate speech posts, would fit perfectly into the Nazi rhetoric of WW2, as would my example just now. You know what they did with sexual deviants back then? They put them into concentration camps.

 

So when I see someone repeating the same false arguments that were used by extremists in the past... and then see people agreeing with that... /facepalm is just not enough.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

What people do in the bathroom isn't nearly as varied or interesting as what they do in the bedroom. And what people do in the bedroom can be quite a large part of a relationship. So if you're going to have a game that tries to faithfully depict romantic relationships, sex is a perfectly valid thing to explore. In all its weird, icky glory.

 

Oh certainly, but the games have yet to start glorifying exhibitionism for the most part, lol.

 

I simply believe that "immodest" discussions and activities should be kept in private (even in a community dedicated to it) between consenting adults as a courtesy to others. Hearing about that kind of thing, especially if it goes beyond the norm, can be very off-putting.

 

I'm of a mind that it has no place in video games in the first place, that it's not a necessary feature, much less subject of discussion. I think it's best to leave these things to our imaginations.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Sorry but I think asking for "civility" here is asking for censorship mostly.

 

The thing that needs to be kept in mind, though, is that every site and community has a kind of ToS. A lack of censorship can only go so far before it breaks the ToS. Also, I still believe one can state one's opinions in full honesty, even on this site, without being incredibly gauche about it. I think it takes actual skill and effort, but that just makes the attempt more admirable. Makes you realize how challenging it must be to be an honest diplomat.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I don't know what facts or false accusations is he making? If people wanted to highlight those that might be meaningful or helpful. There are most definitely probably instances where S&M has gone off the rails and probably destroyed relationships. There are probably instances of regular old cheating doing that too. Also yes "You are a disgrace to the human race..." is still fundamentally an opinion, a harsh one, sure, but it's still just words on a page.

 

Sorry but I think asking for "civility" here is asking for censorship mostly.

 

Pretty much all of his posts are gone now and what's left are a few quotes of him. Please trust me when I'm telling you that the sources he cited were heavily biased websites, were from groups with extreme political agendas and that the "historic facts" he alluded to were not only presented in the worst possible way, they were also incorrect.

Hate speech has no place in a discussion, because you can not argue with irrational behaviour. How do you plan on having a discussion with someone who sees you as scum that needs to be discarded and who disregards everything you say because in his eyes you are worthless trash?

 

Not only all that... but all of it in a truly condescending tone, with a few insults thrown in.

 

Civility means politeness, it means courtesy, it means respect. Even if you can not respect the other side, you can still respect the form of the discussion itself.

 

Censorship is something else entirely and not a word you should use lightly. Some of us lived in countries with actual censorship and that's not an experience I wish for anyone.

[Malthier]

Sorry but I think asking for "civility" here is asking for censorship mostly.

 

Very true. I didn't get to tell Jackie what I think of his white power, anti-feminist, anti-gay ideals with nearly as much precision as I would have liked while working (mostly) within forum rules 

 

I did tell him how stupid his "all women on the internet are men playing pretend" theory is, repeatedly, but not half so explicitly as I would have liked

 

Fight the power. Down with forum censorship 

[Seraphim24]

The thing that needs to be kept in mind, though, is that every site and community has a kind of ToS. A lack of censorship can only go so far before it breaks the ToS. Also, I still believe one can state one's opinions in full honesty, even on this site, without being incredibly gauche about it. I think it takes actual skill and effort, but that just makes the attempt more admirable. Makes you realize how challenging it must be to be an honest diplomat.

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-

 

you can't. I have tons of extremely non-PC opinions that would easily get me banned, that I present not from a position of hatred but as my honest opinions and from my own experience. 

 

The moderates are heavily biased in terms of pro-Bioware positions and are apply double (or triple) standards to anti-Bioware positions, this shouldn't really shock anyone.

 

The thing is this is their company, their board, their fans, so I'm not the type to wreck their happiness. (really I'm not) If I want to see something different or see something different I'll make my own game. 

 

It's hard to ignore their company (and fan's) insistence that they're open to competing opinions though, that's going to attract people to test that. So if they moderate or censor Jack, that materially detracts from that reputation and indeed they will have been mostly talk on that.

 

Very true. I didn't get to tell Jackie what I think of his white power, anti-feminist, anti-gay ideals with nearly as much precision as I would have liked while working (mostly) within forum rules 

 

I did tell him how stupid his "all women on the internet are men playing pretend" theory is, repeatedly, but not half so explicitly as I would have liked

 

Fight the power. Down with forum censorship 

 

Yeah see that wasn't too hard, I doubt he cares to be honest. The point is you both express whatever you feel, and that's that.

[AresKeith]

Yeah see that wasn't too hard, I doubt he cares to be honest. Generally speaking there is only one person offended in an internet argument, the one who is wrong.

 

What kind of logic is that? 

[Seraphim24]

What kind of logic is that? 

 

If someone says something really crazy like... yeah white supremacy? (Which I didn't see in Jack's argument) I feel nothing, I can easily ignore it, it's just so absurd. You don't need to censor people with crazy opinions because you can just ignore them just as easily.

 

People call for censorship generally when it triggers something for them and they share some of the same sentiment.

 

A lot of the time people will assume a person is arguing with them when they're just talking, it's the other person finding the opinion really dis favorable to them (which again I just mean generally, I'm not speaking for this particular instance)

[Malthier]

Well, to be fair Jackie Boy did get upset at most anything very easily, and he was always wrong

[Seraphim24]

Well, to be fair Jackie Boy did get upset at most anything very easily, and he was always wrong

 

Well if your both getting upset at each other I guess that's your own business. I however, simply see people sharing opinions on a wide variety of subjects and that's it.

[Malthier]

If someone says something crazy like... yeah white supremacy? (Which I didn't see in Jack's argument) I feel nothing, I can easily ignore it, it's just so absurd. You don't need to censor people with crazy opinions because you can just ignore them just as easily.

 

People call for censorship generally when it triggers something for them and they share some of the same sentiment.

 

I didn't say white supremacy. I said white power in reference to Jackie boy's innumerable references to his particular pride in being a white man, many of which have now been deleted due to the fact that they also contained personal insults at other posters

 

But if it comes down to semantics, I'll rephrase white power to white pride since that was the wording dear Jackie used

[Malthier]

I never got upset at Jackie boy is the slightest, he was too damn funny

 

I'll have a desperate struggle to work through my mourning that he's gone

 

But I have talk of the BDSM LI of the future to keep me company, which is much more charming