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[CrutchCricket]

I think Ash and Garrus both have similar roles. Probably Ash moreso. Garrus doesn't talk much (in ME1) and is mostly consulting you on matters of justice. 

Unless you ignore or don't recruit him you actively influence Garrus' perspective and shape his very carrer path (never mind that is washed over in ME2).

 

ME2 has him doing the ragtag crew of badasses before you do. His Shadow Broker dossier clearly pegs him as a great leader but living in your shadow.

 

ME3 pretty much assumes bro and protege status with the sniping contest (even more poignant if you use snipers yourself) and furthers the similarities to Shepard via the anti-Reaper task force (thus answering the question of who's smarter, turians or humans). And he and Tali become the Beta Couple if not romanced.

 

Of course almost all of this is optional. But the VS on the hand does not have a comperable response in ME1 and beyond that all they have is... recurring whining about Cerberus. Hence my skepticism.

[CrutchCricket]

I know all of this, but Ash is the same.. just the details on how they're guided are different. There's probably a reason why they're both on the cover of ME1.

 

I'm not saying this because I'm a big Ash fan btw.. I just think she serves a bigger purpose than you're giving her credit for. Both the VS' do (although I think Kaidan is more of a peer).

 

Other than that, strictly gameplay wise, she's a better soldier than any squadmate. Except maybe ME3 Zaeed. He's got similar, but better skills than she does (he's got both concussive and carnage. Rather than Marksman).

How is she the same? What indication is there that you're training/coaching/advising her or Kaidan in any way? Or that they actually look to you for that sort of thing or grow/improve as a result of serving under you (nonsensical promotions in the third game aside)?

 

I'm not dissing either character or denying their specific skills. But they do not show any indication of a mentor-protege relationship with Shepard, nor do they follow his model as closely. Garrus on the other hand is pound for pound a poor man's Shepard, as developed over all three games of the trilogy.

[CrutchCricket]

Your mentor role revolves around Council/Alliance relations. With all of them, really. But with Ash, it's more detailed stuff about humanity's destiny. And not just the buddy cop movie with Garrus. She also saw her whole squad die and you go through the same things with her and Garrus about that stuff. Secondly, I think the bomb placer at Virmire is supposed to die, and the one who goes with Kirrahe meant to live. That's just my personal take though. I think Ash changes from working with aliens like this. And develops her own thoughts and begins on her own path of leadership (which why she can part ways for awhile... and then becomes a Spectre herself). 

 

Garrus is not a poor man's Shepard or learned his skills from him either. He's more of the Soldier-y aspect of an Infiltrator. He's both tech and marksman. He's a cop and learned how to shoot from his dad. He's also the same age apparently. So it's not exactly a mentor role. It's somewhat competitive. It's reflective of Turian/Human relations in general, and has nothing to do with bringing up a Soldier (specifically an Alliance Soldier). All we really mentor him about is morality, red tape, and justice.

Uhm... what?

 

What does Tali, Wrex or Liara or Garrus (i.e the aliens) have to do with the Alliance, in any of the arcs? What do any of them apart from Wrex have to do with the Council?

 

Tali is just on pilgrimage and can advise with the geth and help with Engineering

Wrex just tags along at first and his is the most direct greivance with the Council (but has nothing to do with the Alliance). Not that you take any steps to help with that, at least in the first game.

Garrus has nothing to do with either, he just wants to nail Saren and is conflicted between being a by the book cop or a renegade one

Liara is a Prothean expert only there to move the plot along and has a connection with one of the antagonists.

I honestly remember nothing about Kaidan. Something about headaches and killing his instructor? That inspires confidence...

Ashley's biggest chip is her family being blacklisted by the Alliance and her straightlaced religious and political views, which while you can discuss, she never really changes her opinion on. She accepts the aliens as allies and friends individually, but I don't recall a categorical reevaluation of her previous position on alien relations in the same vein as Pressley's. And where are you getting this humanity's destiny stuff? The was nothing like that in the game I played. The only help Shepard ever gives Ashley professionally is incidental. She's allowed to overcome her blacklisting by association. Shepard didn't recruit her she just sort of fell into his squad (literally, if I think about it). She holds her own and my Shepard at least, would help her out. But as it is there is zero mentorship available in the games for her.

 

And even if I grant that making Ashley more open minded and opening previously closed doors for her is active mentorship, that's like one example vs how many for Garrus? The latter is still the most actively groomed character on the squad.

[CrutchCricket]

I was talking about Ashley. She's an Alliance Soldier. And we're talking about mentoring, walking in Shep's footsteps, comparing it with Vega. What did you think we were talking about?

 

No wonder why you keep arguing. We're not even close to the same page apparently.

 

Garrus learns from Shepard or finds a like mind when it comes to law enforcement. It has nothing to do with taking on Shepard's mantle in these other ways.

 

Your mentor role revolves around Council/Alliance relations. With all of them, really.

What did you mean then?

 

And I wasn't comparing anyone to Vega. We were talking about Garrus and Ashley.

 

Garrus begins to walk in Shepard's shoes throught the entire trilogy. It only starts with just his law enforcement dilemma, but that shouldn't just be dismissed in any case as it is among the most overt cases of Shepard literally molding a squadmate's perspective professionally in the entire series. I think only EDI in ME3 is more blatant. But by ME2 he is in full on emulation mode with his squad on Omega and the dossier analysis. ME3 mostly shows the bro side but his anti-Reaper task force is still further significant proof of doing as his mentor does.

 

Now compare Ashley who's mostly just there. Yes you can talk to her. Yes her character develops. But she doesn't actually do much of anything on her own. ME2 Horizon is just Eden Prime 2.0 for her and in ME3 it's two unexplained promotions (one of them decidedly political) and a lot of downtime. You want to talk about Vega, even he does more than this, with his previous squad and N7 ambitions.

 

So objective protege rankings, based on what's in the game are as follows:

1. Garrus

2. Vega

3. Everybody else

 

Notice I didn't rank EDI on there even though I said she practically asks you to change her mind. That's because while you adivse her and help shape her beliefs, it isn't about combat or command or anything else related to Shepard's professional standing. Advising a squadmate doesn't automatically mean you mentor them. Well maybe it does in general but not in the context we're discussing.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't agree with your edit at all. Shepard-Garrus is almost exactly like Anderson-Shepard plus or minus some history and differing levels of ambition. What does being turian have to do with it? Militarism is the turian's Hat (which almost certainly means they can plausibly make better soldiers, on average) and Garrus' renegade streaks would fit well with Shepard's (if you play him as such).

 

I think you're too smart to bring race into it but it certainly seems like you did.

[CrutchCricket]

I disagree. Shepard's actions in repeatedly uniting different species to solve problems, not to mention the enemy he faces and the scale of the conflict make him transcend humanity. He isn't a symbol for just humanity he's a symbol for all sentients (at least all anthropomorphic sentients).

 

Don't be fooled. ME3 is framed as terribly anthropocentric. But the goal, theme, what have you is still unity. Even when you're forced to work for a human focused group like Cerberus, this still shines through. Not to mention that if Nihlus hadn't been killed you'd have the same dynamic in reverse, with a turian mentoring a human.

 

Why is the comparison so unbelievable? The biggest difference between the pairs is Shepard doesn't step to the sidelines like Anderson does, hence Garrus living in his shadow. Who's to say Shepard might not have ended up the same if Anderson had insisted on retaining command? Sure the Spectre status helped. But I think you have the same amount of investment on all sides.

[CrutchCricket]

If I included aliens though and removed all of these human themes out, I still think Grunt has the better mentoring thing going on. At least with Renegade Shep. He learns all about hardcore survival, destruction, and basically gets a Krogan Battlemaster in human form. And he's not a peer like Garrus... he's like a rambunctious little brother.

Grunt is a kid coming of age. You're literally giving him a Krogan Bar Mitzvah. I don't think it's the same.

[CrutchCricket]

Transcending humanity.

 

**** that. I'm done with you.  

Obviously not in a space magicky sense.

 

Becoming Galactus comes later

[CrutchCricket]

Oh we'll see about that.

[aoibhealfae]

For me, James, Ashley and Kaidan were all walking in Shepard's footsteps. I see ME1's Ashley and Kaidan as archetypes of Shepard without the psychological profile part and both of them became Sole Survivor by ME2. James on the other hand is what I think who "John Shepard" should be and he fit more to the Alpha SciFi Soldier/Warrior archetype. But he already suffered from Fehl Prime and unlike Ashley and Kaidan, he have trouble embracing his responsibility and getting to terms with the loss of his squadmate. Even if ME3 refuse to acknowledge it, he is Lieutenant Commander James Vega and shared the same rank with Ashley. Essentially, both Ashley and James Vega became true archetypes of ME1's Jane and John Shepard. And it was really Anderson who guide both of them to Shepard.

 

Kaidan is unique since he's already a senior officer in ME1 and he was a commando by ME2. You could say that he fit a Sentinel Paragon Earthborn Shepard (and Sole Survivor later) but he's more a younger version of Carth Onasi with jedi powers than an archetype of Shepard. Of course, he did learn a lot from Shepard in ME1 but in all aspect unlike Ashley, he became an equal to both Shepard and Anderson and surpassed Shepard. 

 

If its about Garrus and Vega. By the end of ME3, I could see Vega as a Spectre in the future following the same path as Ash did. He might not be politically savvy as Kaidan but like Ash, he do learn a lot from being with Shepard. He has the making of a good squad leader, he did good with alien relationship and he can be an asset to the council.

 

But no matter what you do, Garrus gave up being C-Sec officer and gave up trying to be a Spectre even under Shepard's guidance. He has the right skill sets for either of those two but unlike Shepard, he have trouble in finding the right calling. He is best as a lone wolf (which Shepard isn't) but he could slip into Saren's path if he's not careful. He has good intentions but he doesn't prioritize or think things ahead well. He brought the wrath of the heads of entire criminal syndicates and jeopardize his squad's life that he fail to recognize that the blame rest on his shoulder as well. Instead of sorting out that issues, he became driven to shoot his problem away by killing Sidonis. He's a rebel without a cause... but by ME3, he finally sort out his issues and go to his father. In reality, he is the product of his father's guidance rather than Shepard's. And it shows when he fits comfortably as a military tactician and advisor to the Turian Hierarchy which mirrored his father's relationship with the previous Primarch rather than Shepard and Anderson. 

[Vazgen]

I can see James as a Spectre in the future. He was faced with a hard choice once and made the right call. A Spectre would've done the same. He's a great fighter too. But he needs to work on his diplomatic skills to be able to get the position. In that sense I find it easier to see Kaidan as a Spectre, not Ash. Ash is too blunt for such a position IMO. Plus the requirements of working with and for aliens

[Vazgen]

That's the thing though, she's alien friendly now, and railroaded into almost being a female Kaidan. The attitude toned down because like Udina says... "officer training". Although I wish she still had the attitude. She was cooler in ME1.

 

These changes have sort made me rethink how she survived Virmire too (I now think she was helping the Salarians, if she's the survivor. There's nothing like changing your attitude than facing death with someone). But that's my personal take. 

Well, she guards the bomb for me... Tbh, part of the reason why I save Kaidan is the ridiculous jump through the ranks Ashley gets. It feels more sensible in Kaidan's case IMO. Also, not a fan of Ash in ME3. Not a fan of her in ME1 either but ME1 Ash > ME3 Ash

[Kynare]

And here I am picturing Kaidan taking over Shepard's place on the Normandy. But he's already a major and the leader of a biotic squad, so I'm fine with it going to James. Ashley is gone in my preferred playthrough, but I can see her taking over as well since she doesn't have any overwhelming responsibilities by ME3.

Garrus will carve out his own path in the turian military. In my story. Maybe even become the primarch like they were joking about previously. I'm not sure if he'd go back to vigilante or Normandy life after everything they had to fight for the restore balance to the galaxy. I can see him rising to the occasion and helping Palaven recover from the Reaper attack, though.

[aoibhealfae]

James seems interested in getting his own ship so its possible in the future but I don't see him or Ashley commanding Normandy. At least we've seen Kaidan had his stint as Joker's co-pilot on Normandy SR-1. I like to think Shepard and Kaidan share the same skill sets which would make him an XO when he joined the Normandy... even better than James/Ash (heck, he's like Miranda.. always in his makeshift office and always working on reports).