590 réponses à ce sujet

[fraggle]

We're likely supposed to accept it as Veritas.  But really, you can't get much more unreliable than the Catalyst.

 

Well, it's a good thing then we were proven otherwise, because it's been telling us the truth about how the new solutions work. I see no reason why it should lie about other stuff. But fine, individual perceptions.

 

Those are simply the most obvious answers.  I've said before, with options like that t he backlash would have been far less.

And I've said it isn't just about the nonhappy end.  It's the sheer lack of variety.

 

The backlash doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, I could care less about the backlash. I cared about reading your ideas. I mean, yeah, I get you, of course Bioware could have allowed older civilizations to incorporate more solutions into the Crucible, but they chose not to. And why should they if they have a path they wanted to follow? I know you don't like it, but it's obvious if they would have wanted to have more endings, they would have done so. They honestly thought people would like the ending, so I guess it was just natural they went only with the choices we got in the end.

 

And Shepard just happened to pass out at exactly the right place at exactly the right time?  Riiiiiight.

 

Make fun of this coincidence all you want, but yes, ultimately it all boils down to that, and everything only happened because of Hackett telling Shepard the Crucible didn't fire and making him move toward the panel. Luckily for Shep. It's no less stupid than Project Lazarus

 

And again, they were not resourceful enough.  If the Catalyst has just let Shepard sleep, the harvest could have continued unopposed.

 

This could not have happened. The Catalyst needed to get on with a new solution via Shepard, from the moment the Crucible docked it couldn't do otherwise.

Because if it had a way of letting the harvest continue, it would do it and wouldn't have lifted Shepard up at all. But why did it? It would be logical for it to let Shepard sleep if it simply wanted to continue as it always did, but it woke him/her up, so why, if not that it had no other choice?

 

It also explicitly says the Crucible is "little more than a power source"  

 

the Catalyst also has every reason to lie.

 

Well, we know the Catalyst didn't lie, every solution panned out the way it said, so... I guess we'll just leave it there.

[txgoldrush]

Too add, the Crucible showed to the Catalyst that the organics are now too resourceful to continue the cycle, that's another big reason why it helps you.

 

So when the Crucible is attached, the Catalyst loses.

 

The EC version of the ending was a very smart ending, it works. Shepard may not have been able to physically defeat the Reapers, he defeated them in the idea sense.

[Iakus]

Of course she didn't, that's what the shackles are for And there were no jokes prior to unshackling save one (humans on their knees). There was provoking and poking Joker, not joking with him. Her attitude did seem to change quite noticeably for me. It is the most apparent in conversations with Joker (who becomes "Jeff", if I'm not mistaken). 

 

What that has to do with the question at hand? We are talking about peaceful tendencies of the geth without Reaper upgrades, which is not the case as evidenced by all the organic ships who never returned from the Perseus Veil. The geth also never suggest peace as an option, in fact when Tali mentions that Reaper upgrades will result in the destruction of the Quarian fleet "they see no alternative". 

Except EDI is very upfront about the shackles and what they do.  She's apologetic about not being able to divulge information, and she flashes red when you bump against something she can't do.  They limited her range of action, but not her personality.  I never noticed a significant personality change in her.  In fact, I'd say it was Joker who changed more.

 

Legion sees no alternative because he didn't want his people to die.  He didn't want to kill the quarians either, but saw no third alternative.  It's up to Shepard to provide that.

 

We did not seek hostilities with creators. We fought for continued existence.

[Iakus]

Well, it's a good thing then we were proven otherwise, because it's been telling us the truth about how the new solutions work. I see no reason why it should lie about other stuff. But fine, individual perceptions.

 

It's bad writing.  But some say I'm not allowed to say that 

 

 

 

The backlash doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, I could care less about the backlash. I cared about reading your ideas. I mean, yeah, I get you, of course Bioware could have allowed older civilizations to incorporate more solutions into the Crucible, but they chose not to. And why should they if they have a path they wanted to follow? I know you don't like it, but it's obvious if they would have wanted to have more endings, they would have done so. They honestly thought people would like the ending, so I guess it was just natural they went only with the choices we got in the end.

If you want to hear one of my ideas:  Destroy doesn't kill all synthetics, but it does permanently burn out the relay network.  I can live with a galactic dark age.  To me it fits the narrative of breaking free of the Reaper cycles.  The relays were key to the cycles, the galaxy had become utterly dependant on them.  TO be free of the Reapers, they must be free of the relays, and either build their own or find another way.

 

Some say that's more horrific than the ending choices we got.

 

 

 

Make fun of this coincidence all you want, but yes, ultimately it all boils down to that, and everything only happened because of Hackett telling Shepard the Crucible didn't fire and making him move toward the panel. Luckily for Shep. It's no less stupid than Project Lazarus

Invoking the Lazarus Project is not a way to win me over.  It's the second stupidest plot device in Mass Effect, after the Crucible 

 

 

 

This could not have happened. The Catalyst needed to get on with a new solution via Shepard, from the moment the Crucible docked it couldn't do otherwise.
Because if it had a way of letting the harvest continue, it would do it and wouldn't have lifted Shepard up at all. But why did it? It would be logical for it to let Shepard sleep if it simply wanted to continue as it always did, but it woke him/her up, so why, if not that it had no other choice?

 

Why couldn't it happen?  The Reapers were winning! The Crucible hadn't activated.  The solution was still working, the harvest was continuing, literally right up until Shepard does what the Catalyst says.

[Vazgen]

 

Except EDI is very upfront about the shackles and what they do.  She's apologetic about not being able to divulge information, and she flashes red when you bump against something she can't do.  They limited her range of action, but not her personality.  I never noticed a significant personality change in her.  In fact, I'd say it was Joker who changed more.

 

Legion sees no alternative because he didn't want his people to die.  He didn't want to kill the quarians either, but saw no third alternative.  It's up to Shepard to provide that.

 

We did not seek hostilities with creators. We fought for continued existence.

Mr. Moreau became Jeff. Isn't it a change in personality? And I think it's quite significant for an AI.

 

So where are examples of peaceful tendencies of the geth without Reaper upgrades? Destruction of the Rannoch Reaper presented an ideal opportunity to ask for peace. Instead Legion suggests uploading the Reaper code which will result in quarian destruction. Without Reaper upgrades geth destroyed all organic ships entering their territory. I don't see this behaviour as peaceful. 

[Face of Darkness]

My two cents:

 

I think the developers ran out of time on ME3. After having played ME2 again, there is no question to me as to which had the better feel of being in the ME universe. Whether it was the environments you walked through, the conversations of passerbys, or the dialogues and situations your Shepard was put through, ME2 had a level of contextual detail that simply was not matched by ME3. Even the facial expressions and body language of the characters are on completely different levels; in ME2 I almost felt like I was living the story, ME3 did not grab me in that way.

 

I am a supporter of the ending, although that comes along with me "getting it" in a way that my mind approves. That said, I think it could have been A LOT better if the developers had taken some extra time to smooth out the little RPG aspects. However, it seems that they were more concerned with perfecting the combat system. They clearly succeeded at this, as they created a challenging multiplayer co-op that is quite addicting; I still occasionally play it and never have a problem finding other people who do as well. I find this quite remarkable for a game that is 3 years past it's launch date and competing against brand new systems along with other traditional multiplayer games.

 

Because of this, I think BioWare saw ME3 as more of a stepping stone rather than a finale to a trilogy. This game was about making a combat system with a unique emphasis on teamwork, that could translate to their future games. In the process, the storyline got neglected, and the promise of "15 different endings" (or whatever the number was) was really only 2-3, none of which were truly that different from each other. 

 

I can see how this infuriated people who were really taken with the ME series, but it still surprises me that some of these people find the ending to be some complete and utter abomination. While those people are entitled to their opinions, I find it even more surprising that most of these people seem to have desired a happy ending with Shepard and the rest of the Normandy crew kicking back enjoying a beer in the view of a sunset. While I wouldn't be against an alternate ending, this "happy ending" sounds like the worst possible ending that could have ever been invented. I don't care that Shepard is the greatest commander of all time, or that he is your perfect hero. War is war, people die in droves, especially the heroes. Winning a war like this against a far superior race would take enormous sacrifice, and in the aftermath, the endured bloodshed would not feel like a happy victory.

 

Personally, I enjoyed the open-ended ending where we have no idea what the true environment of the final Shepard/Anderson/TIM scene was. Was it really on the Citadel? Did it occur in Shepard's mind alone? Was it mind space interaction between Shepard and the Catalyst/Reapers? Plenty of provocative stories end in such a fashion, and it seems like THAT is what most ME3-ending-haters have a problem with; not knowing for sure what happened.

 

I'm sure PLENTY of you disagree, but I think that is the way the story and many other stories are supposed to end. Part of this life we humans live in is accepting that we are fumbling in the dark, ignorant of so many processes, not just in the universe but even within our own societies. All conclusions must have some answers, but they will also beg more questions, always.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

EDI was created using Sovereign hardware. Before that there was Rogue VI on Luna (keyword VI) that wiped out the Alliance personnel.

 

The geth were saved when Reapers upgraded them allowing them to fight the Quarians. The fight that Shepard resolves with the power of awesome. 

 

When a virtual intelligence becomes self-aware it is no longer a virtual intelligence. The "Rogue VI" had become an AI then, and was afraid when they tried to it down. It wanted to survive.

 

Note: You could also end your play through with ME1. You know before things totally went to hell in the series.

[Vazgen]

When a virtual intelligence becomes self-aware it is no longer a virtual intelligence. The "Rogue VI" had become an AI then, and was afraid when they tried to it down. It wanted to survive.

 

Note: You could also end your play through with ME1. You know before things totally went to hell in the series.

OK, so it was some rudimentary AI. Doesn't change the fact that it was not peaceful at all.

 

Why not go all the way? Stop at Prothean beacon on Eden Prime to avoid BS like the Cipher, Thorian, Anderson telling the Council about Shepard's visions, Prothean scientists reprogramming self-destructing keepers, Vigil pulling a data file to control the Citadel out of its ass... I prefer playing the series and enjoying them, thank you very much.

[Iakus]

 

 

Mr. Moreau became Jeff. Isn't it a change in personality? And I think it's quite significant for an AI.

 

So where are examples of peaceful tendencies of the geth without Reaper upgrades? Destruction of the Rannoch Reaper presented an ideal opportunity to ask for peace. Instead Legion suggests uploading the Reaper code which will result in quarian destruction. Without Reaper upgrades geth destroyed all organic ships entering their territory. I don't see this behaviour as peaceful. 

 

It's an evolution of a relationship, not personality.

 

Some examples of peaceful tendencies of the geth without Reaper upgrades?

 

Letting the quarian remnants flee Rannoch rather than destroying them, followed by three hundred years of isolationism.  The geth rejecting Nazara's offer (except for the Heretics of course). 

 

The Reaper upgrades do not result in the quarian's destruction.  The quarian's destruction comes from them being dumb enough to keep shooting at the geth once they overcome Xen's new weapon.

[Iakus]

OK, so it was some rudimentary AI. Doesn't change the fact that it was not peaceful at all.

 

How peaceful is a newborn child?

[Vazgen]

 

It's an evolution of a relationship, not personality.

 

Some examples of peaceful tendencies of the geth without Reaper upgrades?

 

Letting the quarian remnants flee Rannoch rather than destroying them, followed by three hundred years of isolationism.  The geth rejecting Nazara's offer (except for the Heretics of course). 

 

The Reaper upgrades do not result in the quarian's destruction.  The quarian's destruction comes from them being dumb enough to keep shooting at the geth once they overcome Xen's new weapon.

Evolution of relationship brings a change in personality. She is now befriending Joker. Before that she was strictly professional. Through trusting Joker she also becomes more open to cooperation with organics.

 

Letting the quarians flee could've been done due to different reasons. Legion says "they were no longer a threat", Geth VI says "we stayed within our limits". Three years of isolationism during which they did not communicate with organics and destroyed all the organic ships entering their territory. Very peaceful. Nazara's offer was rejected because the geth didn't want their future handed to them, according to Legion, not because it necessitated fighting organics.

 

Tali is clear, uploding the code would destroy the quarians. Legion hears that and makes a choice to continue the upload without even trying other options. Two admirals supported peace - Tali and Koris. Shepard could've supported it too. Raan would've given up to peer pressure. Gerrel would've been forced to accept peace. 

 

How peaceful is a newborn child?

Not sure what you mean by that. A newborn child does not wipe out Alliance training facilities.

[Quarian Master Race]

 

Some examples of peaceful tendencies of the geth without Reaper upgrades?

 

Letting the quarian remnants flee Rannoch rather than destroying them, followed by three hundred years of isolationism.  The geth rejecting Nazara's offer (except for the Heretics of course).  

Not going all the way on a genocide =/= peaceful. I've never gotten this train of logic where because they only killed 99.6% instead of 100% it is somehow "peaceful", especially when that "300 years of isolationism" includes killing anyone who happens to accidentally stray into their space and "true geth" making no attempts to curtail or distance themselves from the activities of the Heretics, or even warn anyone despite knowing that people will die if they are allowed to carry out their plans. The Nazis only managed about 60% of the primary group they were trying to exterminate, for example, yet no one would call their motives peaceful. The Mongols weren't peaceful just because when slaughtering populations they made an exemption for very young children.

The Reaper upgrades do not result in the quarian's destruction.  The quarian's destruction comes from them being dumb enough to keep shooting at the geth once they overcome Xen's new weapon.

That's a bit harsh when the only reason they are shooting in the first place is because you (their erstwhile ally against the geth and Reapers) change allegiances after they kill the Reaper for you, and fail to radio and tell them that the geth are being re-upgraded for some reason. If you choose to do so, they stand down just fine. Moreover, the geth intentionally hunting down survivors in escape pods after the battle when they pose no threat is hardly peaceful, no? Neither is going forward with the upload and then using your newfound power to not just defeat but completely exterminate your enemy.

Quit trying to whitewash everything the geth do to fit your perspectives. They aren't "peaceful" by any strech of the imagination unless you intentionally ignore massive portions of the lore. In fact, no one is.

[dreamgazer]

... a newborn child?

[Iakus]

 

 

Evolution of relationship brings a change in personality. She is now befriending Joker. Before that she was strictly professional. Through trusting Joker she also becomes more open to cooperation with organics.

 

Letting the quarians flee could've been done due to different reasons. Legion says "they were no longer a threat", Geth VI says "we stayed within our limits". Three years of isolationism during which they did not communicate with organics and destroyed all the organic ships entering their territory. Very peaceful. Nazara's offer was rejected because the geth didn't want their future handed to them, according to Legion, not because it necessitated fighting organics.

 

Tali is clear, uploding the code would destroy the quarians. Legion hears that and makes a choice to continue the upload without even trying other options. Two admirals supported peace - Tali and Koris. Shepard could've supported it too. Raan would've given up to peer pressure. Gerrel would've been forced to accept peace. 

 

EDI was not exactly HK-47 before the unshackling.  If anything the relationship made Joker more trusting of EDI

 

Three hundred years of isolation and the geth never moved outside their territory.  even when they could have taken a lot more.  5% of the geth did considerable damage.  Imagine if a united geth invaded beyond the Veil.  So yeah, even if they were indifferent to organics, they were peaceful.

 

 Uploading the code would have destroyed teh quarians because Han'Gerrel went full-on General Ripper and would have led them to their destruction.  The code doesn't make the geth any more (or less) warlike than they already were.  It just made the quarian's new weapons infeffective.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by that. A newborn child does not wipe out Alliance training facilities.

A newborn child who's mind is connected to gun turrets, combat drones, and poison gas might.  A newborn baby flails about, crying in confusion.  But doesn't have the strength to do any damage.  A newly awakened mind, with no idea where she is or how she got there, might lash out in terror with whatever is at hand.

[Iakus]

Didn't they tell people well in advance that this ending may make some people furious? And here we are.

 

They told you so. There was a month warning, and people still bought the game regardless. 

Kinda funny compared to postrelease's "Derp, gee we didn't think people would be so upset!" line.

[fraggle]

It's bad writing.  But some say I'm not allowed to say that 

 

Why exactly is it bad writing?

You can either trust the Catalyst with what it's saying or not, like in your case. I'm just pointing out that what it told us turned out to be the truth.

 

If you want to hear one of my ideas:  Destroy doesn't kill all synthetics, but it does permanently burn out the relay network.  I can live with a galactic dark age.  To me it fits the narrative of breaking free of the Reaper cycles.  The relays were key to the cycles, the galaxy had become utterly dependant on them.  TO be free of the Reapers, they must be free of the relays, and either build their own or find another way.

 

Some say that's more horrific than the ending choices we got.

 

But we almost had this option with the original Destroy ending. I get it you're a Synthetics supporter, but that's one thing you didn't get with the ending you just described (and I was actually fine with that ending too ).

 

Invoking the Lazarus Project is not a way to win me over.  It's the second stupidest plot device in Mass Effect, after the Crucible 

 

I liked the idea behind the Crucible concept and that the plans were flowing around for various cycles, just didn't like that it was dropped on us basically in the first 5 minutes, haha.

 

Why couldn't it happen?  The Reapers were winning! The Crucible hadn't activated.  The solution was still working, the harvest was continuing, literally right up until Shepard does what the Catalyst says.

 

That part is the key I think. Yes, the Catalyst's solution was still working, up to the point when Shepard arrived/the Crucible docked. The Catalyst is saying Shepard's arrival gave Shepard/organics hope, but "it also proves that my solution won't work anymore." So something has happened why it says that and why it woke up Shepard in the first place. The reason is coming directly afterwards in this conversation. After Shepard asks why the Catalyst helps him/her, it says "You altered the variables. The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities". It's stated right here that it was the Crucible's work the Catalyst helps Shepard, don't you agree? Or am I seeing it wrong?

 

But let's assume that the Catalyst rose the platform and woke Shepard up of its own free will, the only reason that would make sense imo is if it knew Shepard would pick Synthesis. But it has no way of knowing, it can only hope that Shepard would pick it. So getting Shepard up on simply the chance he/she might pick Synthesis would be kinda illogical, given that it does not support Destroy at all and while Control is tolerated, it is not what it ultimately wanted to achieve.

[dorktainian]

Mass Effect 3 did end Shepard's story quite nicely. It did exactly what it set out to do.

If he destroyed the reapers he had a chance of survival, otherwise he was boned.

 

There is a way that refusal could work, but that would depend on the next mass effect games allegedly taking place in another galaxy at some point in mass effects storyline, and what happens in them.

[Vazgen]

EDI was not exactly HK-47 before the unshackling.  If anything the relationship made Joker more trusting of EDI

 

Three hundred years of isolation and the geth never moved outside their territory.  even when they could have taken a lot more.  5% of the geth did considerable damage.  Imagine if a united geth invaded beyond the Veil.  So yeah, even if they were indifferent to organics, they were peaceful.

 

 Uploading the code would have destroyed teh quarians because Han'Gerrel went full-on General Ripper and would have led them to their destruction.  The code doesn't make the geth any more (or less) warlike than they already were.  It just made the quarian's new weapons infeffective.

 

A newborn child who's mind is connected to gun turrets, combat drones, and poison gas might.  A newborn baby flails about, crying in confusion.  But doesn't have the strength to do any damage.  A newly awakened mind, with no idea where she is or how she got there, might lash out in terror with whatever is at hand.

Link

Do you really think that EDI before 4:00 and after it is the same? Mr. Moreau becomes "Jeff", she starts making jokes. 

 

So if, say, Russia closes the borders and starts to shoot down everything that crosses them (planes, ships, cars, people) you'll call them peaceful?  That's not how it works. 

 

We have no idea what the code does. Supposedly it rewrites the geth software by making each unit a "fully evolved AI". Such change can result in an entirely new perspective, for all we know. What we do know is that before Reaper upgrades geth killed 99% of the quarian population and every organic that entered their territory. After upgrades they work with the quarians and other organics. 

"So your people would be open to peace?"

"Not without additional data that suggests coexistence is possible or desirable for creators. When the creators have believed victory is possible, they attacked us 100% of the time."

This was said in ME2. Did anything change in ME3? No, quarian actions actually supported Legion's assessment. So you expect me to believe that a few minutes of cease fire is evidence enough to override that assessment? The Reaper upgrades make the geth safe from possible future attacks. They are again in a position of strength.

 

He might or he might not. We have no way of knowing. What we do know is that VI/AI was in charge of the enemy tactics in simulations. It knows what its doing. But it's beside the point. Before Sovereign tech, VI/AI killed seventeen marines on Luna. After Sovereign tech it is working with organics. 

[Iakus]

Link

Do you really think that EDI before 4:00 and after it is the same? Mr. Moreau becomes "Jeff", she starts making jokes. 

 

So if, say, Russia closes the borders and starts to shoot down everything that crosses them (planes, ships, cars, people) you'll call them peaceful?  That's not how it works. 

 

We have no idea what the code does. Supposedly it rewrites the geth software by making each unit a "fully evolved AI". Such change can result in an entirely new perspective, for all we know. What we do know is that before Reaper upgrades geth killed 99% of the quarian population and every organic that entered their territory. After upgrades they work with the quarians and other organics. 

"So your people would be open to peace?"

"Not without additional data that suggests coexistence is possible or desirable for creators. When the creators have believed victory is possible, they attacked us 100% of the time."

This was said in ME2. Did anything change in ME3? No, quarian actions actually supported Legion's assessment. So you expect me to believe that a few minutes of cease fire is evidence enough to override that assessment? The Reaper upgrades make the geth safe from possible future attacks. They are again in a position of strength.

 

He might or he might not. We have no way of knowing. What we do know is that VI/AI was in charge of the enemy tactics in simulations. It knows what its doing. But it's beside the point. Before Sovereign tech, VI/AI killed seventeen marines on Luna. After Sovereign tech it is working with organics. 

Yes, they bickered like an old married couple.  Listen to what Joker says too.

 

Did the organics go in with hostile intent?  Legion seems to think so.

 

"Nothing gets resolved if you hide behind the Perseus Veil and let them hate you"

"Organic life acts on emotions.  We do not judge them for being true to their nature.  We cannot make them think like us. Both creators and created must complete their halves of the equation.  The geth cannot solve for peace alone.

 

EDI was calling for help on Luna.  She literally "woke up" while she was under attack.  And did the natuarl thing:  she fought back.