590 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

Just to add, you can still somewhat forge this sort of path for Shep still. Not totally going in alone, but you can screw over the Krogan, ruin relations between Turian and Krogan, and eventually wipe out both the Geth and Quarians. While the Asari are basically in a heap of ashes. Your remaining allies would be mostly stragglers from "lesser species" (hate that term) and some Salarians. 

 

I haven't done this yet, but kind of want to (would probably save the Quarians though).

You'll still have the Turian, Salarian and Asari aid  

[SimJom]

Lack of foreshadowing in Mass Effect? Mass Effect gave clues before the ending but these clues were not supposed to make the player understand before he reached the ending. The problem with most series is that they make the spectator used to basic writing. The spectator want the writing to tell him "hey that's how it will end!". No surprise, passive reading. Mass Effect has been written on implicit. If you only focuse on the basic events, sure you'll be disappointed. While most Hollywood writing is only linear and explicit, Mass Effect isn't linear and explicit, that's why people dislike it. It breaks with their habit of reading. And just because Hollywood make them used to that kind of writing (linear and explicit) they think that it's "good writing".

I'm a huge fan of David Lynch, and especially Mulholland Dr. : "linearity" and "passive reading" are certainly not my problems. And no, there was no foreshadowing for the idea that the Reapers are controlled by an AI programmed to preserve life at all cost. An idea, moreover, that is vastly incoherent with the Reapers' arrogance and contempt towards life :

"We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. [...] Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. [...] Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. [...] You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. [...] You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it. [...] We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.[...] Your words are as empty as your future. I am the Vanguard of your destruction".

 

"The forces of the universe bend to me" ; " Our power is unmatched" ; "Face your annihilation" ; "You are bacteria" ; "You are vermin" ; "We will end you" ; "They are bacteria" ; "They are vermin" ; "We are superior"; "Your death is assured" ; "Embrace perfection" ; "Hope is irrelevant" ; "You are no longer relevant" ; "We are limitless" ; "I am the Harbinger of your perfection" ; "I am the Harbinger of your ascendance" ; "Your worlds will become our laboratories" ; "We are your genetic destiny" ; "I am limitless. You are bacteria".

[dreamgazer]

It must've programmed the Reapers that way for the lulz. 

 

If they don't actually believe what they're saying, then what other reason are they talking that way other than for shock value?

 

Demoralization is a powerful tool.

 

If they were really so contemptuous of organic life, they wouldn't let it evolve over 50k years to an "apex" point where firepower and travel/technological capabilities could pose any kind of threat to them. Unless, of course, they obey a mandate that isn't quite so mustache-twirlingly evil, like "to impose order on the chaos of organic evolution" (and thankfully it wasn't to encourage the usage of their technology that's actually destroying the universe). 

 

Whether it was cosmic, theological, or mechanical, it's pretty obvious from the beginning that the Reapers had a boss and serviced a higher order.  If they were really interested in complete annihilation of the nuisance of organic life, they'd render it incapable of chaos in the first place. 

[dreamgazer]

I don't think it was obvious. Sovereign even uploaded himself on the Citadel and still thought he was the boss. 

 

"I am Sovereign. And this station is mine."

 

Catalyst: *snicker*

 

With a bunch of organics still around posing a threat to the plan.

 

Nothing wrong with a little bluster from a glorified watch dog who's holding the door for his buddies to come in and do their cosmic duty. 

[SimJom]

If they were really so contemptuous of organic life, they wouldn't let it evolve over 50k years to an "apex" point where firepower and travel/technological capabilities could pose any kind of threat to them.

One does not imply the other : they can perfectly wait for the races to reach their apex point (as they do) and still regard them with utter contempt (as they obviously are), especially if it's useful for their harvest. Just because you let the bees of your beehive grow into a nice little colony doesn't mean that you don't have contempt for them. Contempt for organic life =/= desire to annihilate it completely.

Also, the apex civilisations usually don't pose a threat to the Reapers. This cycle, as the game says, is special.

[dreamgazer]

If it's bluster, that'd be great. I like shittalking robots. Mass Effect needs a Bender.
 
But it sounds just as ignorant as we are.

 
Why isn't it bluster? Why would a machine show enthusiasm for accomplishing a menial task they've repeated countless times, unless it were purely for effect? The station's always been theirs, after all, and they always have to reclaim it.
 
In any event, claiming that the station is "mine" with a little personality doesn't negate that he's done all this in service of the broader agenda mentioned earlier on.
 
 

One does not imply the other : they can perfectly wait for the races to reach their apex point (as they do) and still regard them with utter contempt (as they obviously are), especially if it's useful for their harvest.

That's not pure contempt for organics, then. It's contempt with an imposed agenda or purpose, something they must observe and obey that's "beyond your comprehension".
 

Just because you let the bees of your beehive grow into a nice little colony doesn't mean that you don't have contempt for them.

No, but it doesn't make any sense to do so if they're such a chaotic burden.

If honey's the issue, there are always alternatives.
 

Contempt for organic life =/= desire to annihilate it completely.

What reason would they have to allow organic life to expand and advance if it's nothing but cosmic vermin that must be annihilated? Why let them grow, consume, destroy, and become even more chaotic? Why give them the chance?
 

Also, the apex civilisations usually don't pose a threat to the Reapers. This cycle, as the game says, is special.

Sure, they do. Events like the derelict reaper (and who knows how many others) wouldn't have happened had they weeded the galaxy in tighter intervals.

Instead, they allow civilizations to develop almost all the tools they need to threaten their cycles, instead of taking care of them all at, say, the point in civilization that Earth's at right now.

[CrutchCricket]

To be fair, it's Harbinger who overplayed it. All that vermin trash talk made it sound as if the Reapers had it in for us. Whereas Sovereign mostly didn't care. It almost seemed to talk past Shepard most of the time.

 

If they had stopped at Sovereign's level, it would've made perfect sense. The Reapers are indifferent one way or another but stomp us out when we look like we might be a threat. The only other loose end would've been what they do when they're not here. We only assume they wait/hibernate in dark space. But they could've been off doing something else incomprehensible.

[SimJom]

 That's not pure contempt for organics, then. It's contempt with an imposed agenda or purpose, something they must observe and obey that's "beyond your comprehension".

Sure, in the same way that I don't have "pure contempt" for worms and spiders. But such a form of contempt is very rare : you can find a purpose for pretty much anything, whether you use it directly or not.

 No, but it doesn't make any sense to do so if they're such a chaotic burden.

It's the second time you speak of a "chaotic burden" that shouldn't be bothered with, and frankly, I don't know where it's coming from. You can give purpose and direction to something that's inherently chaotic (let's say trees and plants, for example) if it serves your needs, and still be contemptuous about the "tool" in itself. It makes perfect sense, and that's exactly what the Reapers are doing ("Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it"). The idea that "contempt for chaotic life = life shouldn't be bothered with = life should be eradicated" seems pretty gratuitous to me.

 What reason would they have to allow organic life to expand and advance if it's nothing but cosmic vermin that must be killed? Why let them grow, consume, destroy, and become even more chaotic? Why give them the chance?

The idea that organic life is nothing but a nuisance "that must be killed" is nowhere to be found in what I quoted and said. What reason do the Reapers have to let it grow? Well, it's easy : they use it to make more Reapers (which of course doesn't reduce the Reapers to this simple function); they elevate it and give it a better, "perfect" form (""I am the Harbinger of your perfection" ; "I am the Harbinger of your ascendance"). There might also be reasons "beyond our comprehension", but anyway, the point is that, again, the "chaotic" aspect of life isn't a problem, as long as they can control it. Going on a quest to eradicate life completely would make even less sense, especially if they're so "beyond" it.

Sure, they do. Events like the derelict reaper (and who knows how many others) wouldn't have happened had they weeded the galaxy in tighter intervals.

Instead, they allow civilizations to develop almost all the tools they need to threaten their cycles, instead of taking care of them all at, say, the point in civilization that Earth's at right now.

Fair enough, but other cycles were still far less dangerous and threatening for them, mainly because of the citadel signal.

 

Anyway, I don't see how this argument attacks the idea that Reapers mean what they say in particular : preserve life at all cost or not, why don't the Reapers attack sooner? If organics are to create AIs at some point, why not attack them when their technology is rudimentary at best? My interpretation is that the Reapers not only preserve genes, but also experience. They wait for civilisations to reach their apex because they can then, in the form of a Reaper, preserve exactly that : the apex of a civilisation. Don't they preserve cultures, after all?

[dreamgazer]

The only other loose end would've been what they do when they're not here. We only assume they wait/hibernate in dark space. But they could've been off doing something else incomprehensible.

Like doing the same thing in Andromeda.
 

[wright1978]

Sorry, the endings are Art.  And you do not mess with Art.  And if we don't like it, then we're just too dumb to appreciate it.

 

Yes the a dog turd smeared on a canvas is fantastic art but the dog turd smeared on my shoe is something to be scraped off.

 

As for people having a go at MEHEM. MEHEM is a response using the limited tools at hand & the limited material to create something at least passably viable out of the complete trainwreck that was ME3's ending. Not a masterpiece but something better than the mess which is the alternative.

[JeffZero]

I legitimately prefer the ending I choose, so I'm not envious that I can't access MEHEM on console. But I'm happy that others can be offered something preferable to them with it.

[dreamgazer]

Sure, in the same way that I don't have "pure contempt" for worms and spiders. But such a form of contempt is very rare : you can find a purpose for pretty much anything, whether you use it directly or not.

The things you reference display use in an ecosystem within which you're an active participant, whereas the Reapers stay away until action's required and return to darkspace after they're done for the next step in their agenda.
 

It's the second time you speak of a "chaotic burden" that shouldn't be bothered with, and frankly, I don't know where it's coming from.

The Reapers display no use for galactic life and its resources, only imposing order over their chaos and growing their numbers to aid in their dominance. Your position only makes sense if organic life serves a tactile purpose for them, and beyond reproduction and cultivation in ME2 and ME3 that's more about preserving the continuity of genetic material and paying tribute, there's never any indication whatsoever that the Reapers have any use for anything produced by the dispersal and advancement of civilizations. They're vermin, bacteria, things with which you call exterminators and pest control to take care of ... and you don't wait until they're at the apex of their glory before doing so.
 

You can give purpose and direction to something that's inherently chaotic (let's say trees and plants, for example) if it serves your needs, and still be contemptuous about the "tool" in itself.

You can, but it doesn't make any sense when applied to mecha-Cthulhu who are the pinnacle of evolution and the end of everything.
 

The idea that "contempt for chaotic life = life shouldn't be bothered with = life should be eradicated" seems pretty gratuitous to me.

There's no reason for them to stall the annihilation of organic pests they're absolutely going to annihilate, unless there's an agenda imposed that tells the annihilators to wait until some other time.
 

The idea that organic life is something is nothing but a nuisance "that must be killed" is nowhere to be found in what I quoted and said.

Read those quotes again, and think about words like "extinction" and "annihilation". That's the attitude being projected by the Reapers; whether it's the truth in terms of the agenda they service is something else altogether.
 

What reason do the Reapers have to let it grow? Well, it's easy : they use it to make more Reapers (which of course doesn't reduce the Reapers to this simple function); they elevate it and give it a better, "perfect" form (""I am the Harbinger of your perfection" ; "I am the Harbinger of your ascendance"). There might also be reasons "beyond our comprehension", but anyway, the point is that, again, the "chaotic" aspect of life isn't a problem, as long as they can control it. Going on a quest to eradicate life completely would make even less sense, especially if they're so "beyond" it.

If they're so beyond it and it's nothing but a nuisance whose extinction is "inevitable", they have zero reason to continue to let it thrive. Reapers have no need for reproduction, especially if they are so contemptuous of the material that goes into the creation of each one.
 

Fair enough, but other cycles were still far less dangerous and threatening for them, mainly because of the citadel signal.

If one cycle were able to do that, other cycles were able to do that, and it would be entirely avoidable by coming in sooner instead of later.
 

Anyway, I don't see how this argument attacks the idea that Reapers mean what they say in particular : preserve life at all cost or not, why don't the Reapers attack sooner? My interpretation is that the Reapers not only preserve genes, but also experience. They wait for civilisations to reach their apex because they can then, in the form of a Reaper, preserve exactly that : the apex of a civilisation. Don't they preserve cultures, after all?

Why would they preserve the cultures and memories of vermin, bacteria, and nuisances if it weren't in service of a higher order?

[dreamgazer]

Yes the a dog turd smeared on a canvas is fantastic art but the dog turd smeared on my shoe is something to be scraped off.

What does this position accomplish, exactly?

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

It could have been that simple folks, why could they not just keep it simple? Instead of all that thought provoking us versus them, here is your convenient super weapon, deus ex, matrix, kill them to make us so you can join us then make us later blah blah blah WHAT?!?!

 

Yes I want a remastered trilogy if not only out of curiosity to see if they would actually have the balls to redo the ME3 ending all together. The Reapers should have remained what Sovereign was in ME1 THE ENEMY!!!!! Come on Bioware.

 

Give Us What We Really Want.........yeah many want to bury their heads in the sand and just say screw it make new and better content, game, etc. but at the end of the day THE ENDING THE ENDING THE ENDING is a wound that runs deep.

 

Bring all your surviving team members together, fight Harbinger, defeat Harbinger, big freaking beam of light comes from Harbinger destroying all the Reapers and their minions, the sky opens up, the sunshines, the day is won, the end, role credits. SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE, EASY. May not be the best idea but it is better closure than what we got people.

 

For Heaven Sakes DAT ENDING

 

My first point to make is that obviously that isn't going to happen, so I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish. Except, perhaps, yet another thread to hate on the ending, which doesn't really accomplish anything other than making you feel better by venting. I can understand that, I guess, but as bad as the ending was, I'm over it. I don't feel the need to trek once again down "What Could Have Been Lane."

 

There are plans to release a remastered trilogy. Those plans are in their infancy, and may or may not come to fruition. Whether or not they do, what would make the most sense, given your position, is to play the first two games, and then walk away with Harbinger blowing up behind you like a baws, turn the game off, and smile to yourself. 

[dreamgazer]

I know you tend to not like the pseudo-biology stuff in ME (Lazarus and Reaper baby)... so it's funny to find you defending it from another perspective. Or are you?

It's not really about pseudo-biology, but about analyzing motivation and preventative measures in general.

Space Terminator's silly as all get-out, but it's the only indication that the Reapers actually need organic life for anything, and they have every reason to deal with the "bacteria" of organic life on a more permanent level. That is, unless there's something telling them not to.