Questa discussione ha avuto 61 risposte

[Heimerdinger]

So I've been considering the reaper fleet's size and composition. I made these estimations a long time ago but never got to post them anywhere so here it goes. Also note that it's impossible to get an exact number, so I'm aiming for a crude estimation of the reaper fleet's strength.

 

- the last cycle was 50.000 years in the past. The time between cycles should be around that number, because the relay system and the mass effect technology guide organic evolution upon a regular pattern.

- the oldest recorded reaper is the Leviathan of Dis, estimated at around 1 billion years old so the reapers have been around for at least that time.

- in that time frame we're looking at anywhere between 10.000 to 20.000 harvests.

- according to the Leviathan (not the one from Dis) each cycle ends with the birth of a reaper. Perfect in it's design and all that.

- we also know the above is not always true, the reapers failed to create a Prothean reaper.

- capital ships can fall in battle (derelict reaper, leviathan of dis), but this is rare.

- the races that don't become capital ships are used to make Destroyers instead.

- Destroyers fall in battle more easy.

 

So lets take a look at the Reaper fleet's composition:

 

1.Capital ships. I will asume that only around 75% of harvests actually produce a capital ship. Leviathan says that most cycles create one (and his kind has been around to see it) so that 75% number is actually in our favor.

 

Anywhere between 7500 - 15000 capital ships could have been built in the 1 billion years timeframe. Even with casualties suffered over time we're still talking thousands of ships.

 

Shepard:"The reaper fleet is still coming. Hundreds of ships, maybe thousands." That's right Shep.

 

2.Destroyers. Races that don't become capital ships, like the turians, asari, salarians in our cycle. So maybe around 3 per cycle. The question is can they make multiple destroyers from one race? Regardless of that, the destroyers would outnumber the capital ships even if they take higher casualties.

 

3.Transport ships. Not sentient, could be mass produced with resources harvested each cycle.

 

4.Processing ships. Not sentient, could be mass produced. There are some 400 of them on Earth alone.

 

5.Hades Cannons. Mobile artillery built on destroyer chasiss. Not sentient. (no, you can not blow up a reaper with M920 Cains, these are not real reapers). Could be mass produced.

 

6.Ground troops. Manufactured on the field. The transport ships fly out legions of cannibals from Camala every hour. Reapers can also bring in mooks from  previous cycles, like the Collectors who are basically clones.

 

Now the Galaxy races:

- turians 39 dreadnoughts

- asari 21 dreadnoughts (20 if the Ascencion is gone)

- salarians 16 dreadnoughts

- Alliance 9 dreadnoughts

- geth, around the same as the turians. 30-40 dreadnoughts

- quarians - the live ships, but these are glass cannons. Unknown number.

- volus - 1 dreadnought 

 

So the Reaper war machine is enormous. The current cycle races have just over 120 dreadnoughts and it takes around 4 of them to drop the shields of a capital ship. Cruisers and frigates are effective but usually only against destroyers. So any space battle with the reapers can only end in one way. Things are not better on the ground either since most races have small numbers of trained troops (less than 3% of human population), except for the turians.

 

I know this is a very rough estimation but it was fun putting it together anyway. (someone did something similar with Thedas's military strength in Dragon Age, so I got the idea from there)

 

Thoughts?

[SuperJogi]

Looks a like a solid estimation to me and it makes a conventional victory almost impossible. (Unless you consider radiation weapons )

The only real advantage the organics have is that they are fighting on the defensive and can fortify with heavy artillery and other stationary defenses.

With sufficent time to prepare you could build every major planet into a real tough nut to crack and force the reapers to take heavy casualties.

But since the council are total morons, that didn't happen, so you are left with space magic to solve your problem.  

[Heimerdinger]

I also liked that info from the Spectre terminal on how the galactic economy can not sustain the war for more than 1 standard galactic year. The thing is, the fleets and armies would be wiped out in less than that.

[Gago]

Good analysis, the Reapers can not be defeated conventionally even thought their intention is not to outright kill us but to harvest us.

[SuperJogi]

I also liked that info from the Spectre terminal on how the galactic economy can not sustain the war for more than 1 standard galactic year. The thing is, the fleets and armies would be wiped out in less than that.

 

Unless they run like chickens, yes.

In any major battle your fleets would be nothing but cannon fodder, so it makes more sense to use them for hit and run attacks on supply lines,etc.

Your main line of defense would be heavy stationary artillery, that has an advantage in range and firepower, like the thing that killed the derelict reaper.

[MrFob]

Doesn't Vendetta tell you that the reapers consolidated their forces around the Citadel and earth before we attack? So Hackett is actually quite the tactical genius, given how long he keeps sword and shield in the fight with such odds.

[Iakus]

Personally, I up the number of destroyers to five per cycle, which I still find pretty conservative.  There's about a dozen spacefaring races in this cycle, so even if half that is considered "normal" and only one destroyer is made per race per cycle...that's a LOT of Reapers.

 

And it just goes to show how stupid ME3 is.  Even the most conservative efforts show the Reapers should have steamrolled through the galaxy.  Ten thousand Sovereign class Reapers and tens OF thousands of destroyers?  Not just "they can't be beaten conventionally" they shouldn't have been beatable period!

 

Edit:  Also, the Leviathan of Dis isn't even the oldest Reaper.  Harbinger is!  That means the Reapers have been around for more than a billion years (and thus more Reapers).  How many more, is of course an open question.

[ZoliCs]

Aren't humans have 9 dreadnought?

[Heimerdinger]

Aren't humans have 9 dreadnought?

 

Yes. I updated the post. By 2186 the Alliance has 9, they had 6 in 2183.

 

Not that it matters really. Our guys may as well had 90 dreadnoughts instead of 9, they would still be ridiculously outnumbered.

Modificata da Heimerdinger, 13 maggio 2015 - 01:03 .

[MrFob]

Edit:  Also, the Leviathan of Dis isn't even the oldest Reaper.  Harbinger is!  That means the Reapers have been around for more than a billion years (and thus more Reapers).  How many more, is of course an open question.

 

Not necessarily. It may also be that the cycles used to be longer. Think about it, pretty much every older race we know about was technologically more advanced than us. The protheans were on the cusp of creating their own mass relays. The race that killed the LoD managed to build a weapon powerful, and -more importantly - accurate enough to shoot a reaper from great distance (and apparently also powerful enough to mess up an entire hemisphere of a moon in the process). The races in between designed the crucible, a device about the function of which we don't have the first clue, even while building it. This indicates to me that these races must have had some sort of advantage over our cycle (or maybe we are just dumb). One possibility is that the cycles used to be longer and races were allowed to advance further before the harvest in the past.

 

Of course, it is also possible that we only know of a selected few past races because they were more advanced than the average and that is the whole reason there is stuff from them still remaining today. So who knows.

[ZoliCs]

The race that killed the LoD managed to build a weapon powerful, and -more importantly - accurate enough to shoot a reaper from great distance (and apparently also powerful enough to mess up an entire hemisphere of a moon in the process). 

 

Leviathans killed the Leviathan of Dis.

[themikefest]

Doesn't Vendetta tell you that the reapers consolidated their forces around the Citadel and earth before we attack? So Hackett is actually quite the tactical genius, given how long he keeps sword and shield in the fight with such odds.

Was't he escorting the Crucible to Earth?

 

I wouldn't call him a genius

[themikefest]

I always thought that Hackett's plan to get to the beam was quite a tactical disaster that any 12-years-old could have come up with. I never liked Hackett to be honest and was always pissed at how Shepard keeps saluting as if he bloody works for him. Hackett actually has no authority over Shepard. Shepard is a spectre.

It was Anderson's plan to get to the beam. That plan was lame at best. There were other ways that would've worked better without having all the losses that is seen

 

Hackett is a poor leader as seen in the Battle of the Citadel

[Laughing_Man]

It was Anderson's plan to get to the beam. That plan was lame at best. There were other ways that would've worked better without having all the losses that is seen

 

Hackett is a poor leader as seen in the Battle of the Citadel

 

 

Yes. I agree. I didn't like Anderson in ME3 either. The two of them were too rash and shouldn't have been in charge. Their logic is that you just throw a bunch of people at the reapers until some other people get the mission done. Causalities are not a concern. Kinda reminded me of when the Shadow Broker blew up an entire building just to get rid of Liara. But that's besides the point. What really bothered me is that Shepard didn't protest. He just went along with their plans.

 

But that's not really fair, is it? This is less of a testimony to any of the above tactical prowess or lack thereof, and more of a proof to bioware's trademark bad tactics in any kind of armed conflict in their stories. For some reason they just can't portray a good commander or effective tactics. (at least I can't remember such case)

[Heimerdinger]

Doesn't Vendetta tell you that the reapers consolidated their forces around the Citadel and earth before we attack? So Hackett is actually quite the tactical genius, given how long he keeps sword and shield in the fight with such odds.

 

Credit should go to the captains of the ships and their respective crews for putting up one hell of a fight. By all accounts Sword fleet should have not lasted as long as it did. Not with what appear to be hundreds of capital ships grouped around the Citadel.

 

Personally, I up the number of destroyers to five per cycle, which I still find pretty conservative.  There's about a dozen spacefaring races in this cycle, so even if half that is considered "normal" and only one destroyer is made per race per cycle...that's a LOT of Reapers.

 

And it just goes to show how stupid ME3 is.  Even the most conservative efforts show the Reapers should have steamrolled through the galaxy.  Ten thousand Sovereign class Reapers and tens OF thousands of destroyers?  Not just "they can't be beaten conventionally" they shouldn't have been beatable period!

 

 

Well I was being as conservative as possible in my estimation, maybe tilt the odds in our favor a bit but the galaxy races are still facing impossible odds.

 

Yes. I agree. I didn't like Anderson in ME3 either. The two of them were too rash and shouldn't have been in charge. Their logic is that you just throw a bunch of people at the reapers until some other people get the mission done. Causalities are not a concern. Kinda reminded me of when the Shadow Broker blew up an entire building just to get rid of Liara. But that's besides the point. What really bothered me is that Shepard didn't protest. He just went along with their plans.

 

Anderson's plan was so simplistic you can hardly call it a "plan". It was basically, lets get from point A to point B in straight line ignoring the massive casualties we would sustain, maybe someone will get through. But the whole Priority: Earth mission was a long shot anyway.

 

But that's not really fair, is it? This is less of a testimony to any of the above tactical prowess or lack thereof, and more of a proof to bioware's trademark bad tactics in any kind of armed conflict in their stories. For some reason they just can't portray a good commander or effective tactics. (at least I can't remember such case)

 

Yes they are very bad at tactics and strategy, both in Mass Effect and Dragon Age. They use the military scenarios to advance the story but don't seem to care if those scenes make any sense from a strategic point of view. Now I'm no expert, I just read a lot of military history and stuff like that, but some things just stand out for anyone to see and it's difficult to just hand wave them.

[KrrKs]

I think that the entire reaper-reproduction cycle is still incredible vague.

 

First about Destroyers: I concur with Iakus that about 5 per Capital ship is on the low end of the possible spectrum. Much more likely that at least one destroyer is created per exterminated species.

 

Now for capital Reapers:

'A capital Reaper is created every cycle': Is it really 1 Reaper? Is it always a single Reaper?

That the last cycle did not produce a reaper came from a speculation EDI made during the suicide mission. We don't know if not one of the subjugated species was turned into a reaper. It also seems illogical to produce only a single capital reaper per cycle - especially if the alleged reason is to preserve the species.

 

Something that popped up in the Andromeda/Ark theory topics:

We don't know what the Reapers actually do between the galactic extinction sprees. A 'cycle' could be the time it takes them to complete an extermination run through the local cluster of galaxies.

The local group consists of the large galaxies Andromeda, Milkyway, Triangulum, and more than 50 smaller ones. Most of which are satellite galaxies to one of the large ones.

If the Reapers 'farm' Andromeda the same way they do the milky way, their Ship production is going to be almost 3 times as much as anticipated when considering only the Milkyway alone. (Based on Andromeda's radius and the assumption that the relative density of 'harvest-able' species is equal.)

I don't want to add all the other galaxies. Each single one would, based on their size, only contribute a minimum of extra ships, but they'd all add up quickly.

 

I can only remember explicitly mentioned/implied harvests at Khar'shan, Earth, Palaven, Thessia( +whatever world with the AY-monastery), Tuchanka , Irune, Dekuuna, and Heshtok. That alone are 8 species that could/would be turned into Reaper ships. (Not counting Salarians, Hanar and others.)

I forgot where I was aiming with this exactly...

 

Anyway: The Reapers likely have way more ships than any of us can imagine.

[themikefest]

Just to bolster my argument here about the stupidity of Hackett and Anderson in ME3, In the secondary codex entries, There's one called "The Reaper War", Highlighting the conflict's main battles. There was one that most of the fanbase are unfamiliar with called, "The Miracle at Palaven", And it says:

 

The Miracle at Palaven

The Turians also had the Battle of Palaven with them destroying several reaper capital ships. I would have that Turian Commander leading the fleets to Earth

[leaguer of one]

 

 

- we also know the above is not always true, the reapers failed to create a Prothean reaper.

 

 

Note that does not mean a reaper was not made. It just mean the protheans were not turned into a capital ship. The most dominate and powerful race are not always picked to be made into a capital ship. Prothean cycle had more then one race in there cycle and they were turn to slave races of the preothens. Another race other then the protheans most likely were picked.

Example:Humanity is not the most dominate and powerful race yet they were picked to be turned into a capital ship over the Asari who are the most dominate and powerful race of this cycle.

[leaguer of one]

Just to bolster my argument here about the stupidity of Hackett and Anderson in ME3, In the secondary codex entries, There's one called "The Reaper War", Highlighting the conflict's main battles. There was one that most of the fanbase are unfamiliar with called, "The Miracle at Palaven", And it says:

 

The Miracle at Palaven

 

The turian and krogan counterattack on Palaven combined deception, courage, and tenacity. First, the turians leaked a false battle plan that drew on the same tactics they used at beginning of the assault on Palaven. Then the dreadnought Indomitable faked a problem with its drive core, coming out of FTL near Palaven's moon, Menae. Three other dreadnoughts and their attendant fleets deployed to assist Indomitable, a tempting target that drew the Reaper capital ships away from Palaven. Turian troop transports then entered Palaven's atmosphere to release shuttles, gliders, and individual soldier capsules.

The Reapers did not understand the seriousness of the threat at first--those that detected the landing crafts sent husks and Collector swarms to intercept them, but little more. This allowed krogan commandos to link up with Palaven's resistance and hand off their payloads--warp bombs and fission weapons.

In simultaneous strikes across the globe, Reaper ships began to explode. Turian resistance members had managed to smuggle the bombs inside when the Reaper processing ships, troop transports, and even destroyers and capital ships had opened their structures to indoctrinated turian leaders.

Large swaths of territory fell back into turian and krogan control. News of the victory gave a much-needed boost to the morale of the turian resistance and the galactic public.

But the action was not without sacrifice. Turian insurgents gave their lives to ensure the explosives detonated, and the processing centers they destroyed were full of civilians who died just as surely as if they had been harvested. Of the dead, General Minin Resvirix said, "Whatever they were in life, their deaths had no equal. They are worthy of joining the spirit of Palaven itself."

 

Just in case you're skeptic of the info you're reading; "Which is not a bad thing", Here's the entry from the Mass Effect wiki and you can find it in the game:

http://masseffect.wi.../The_Reaper_War

 

I think that they could have created something similar to that for Priority: Earth. To create a new and genuine strategy to defeat the reapers with the help of the crucible AFTER they fully explain how it works. There were a few hints at the war assets descriptions and some of the codex entries to how it works, But it should have been explained because you have everything in your hand, Its blue prints, Its structure and you engineered it yourself for heaven's sakes. I'm not saying that the idea of leaving the catalyst a mystery is a bad thing, But they should have explained first how it works preliminary from what we got and then add the twist, The missing pieces at the end. That'd have made sense. But to just follow blindly something you don't understand how it works is dead wrong.

Did you ignore the part were Garrus told you the turians were losing the war. A few victories does not win a war. Your not getting that few victories does not support your point.

[leaguer of one]

The Turians also had the Battle of Palaven with them destroying several reaper capital ships. I would have that Turian Commander leading the fleets to Earth

And you missed the fact as soon as they took out those ships they were over run and pushed to the brink.