15849 réponses à ce sujet

[Kulyok]

Just adding another "Ewww" for premade protagonists like Geralt - an absolute dealbreaker. Carry on.

[AresKeith]

And that shows that they didnt compromise the game. Even if it means making less money, losing money?

Awww well, those silly Polish developers. Why didnt they learn from the masters like EA and Activision.

What does that have to do with anything, there are multiple Bioware teams to work on games while CDPR is still one team right?

[Dread-Reaper]

I know she isn't in The Witcher 3 (or 2) but can we get a character similar to White Rayla in the next DA game, pwetty pls?

[AlanC9]

And that shows that they didnt compromise the game. Even if it means making less money, losing money?
 
Awww well, those silly Polish developers. Why didnt they learn from the masters like EA and Activision.   

Paying 1/3 the salary does give them freedoms that Bio doesn't enjoy, true. Really, Bio should just get ahead of the curve and relocate to Shanghai. It worked for the guys who did FTL.

(Hey, anyone else remember that a few months ago the worry here was that DAI was so expensive that it was gonna destroy Bioware?)

[ashwind]

What does that have to do with anything, there are multiple Bioware teams to work on games while CDPR is still one team right?

 

What has this got to do with anything... long story lemme recap:

 

1. I said given the fact that a small studio like CDPR can create a whole new engine for their 1st attempt at an open world game, they still manage to find time to make all the quests meaty and well, even the side quests. There is simply no excuse for Bioware to not give us meaty side quests now; especially since fighting Frostbite 3's problems are done and over.

 

2. Someone comments that tweaking with a ready made engine cost as much effort. They also claim that while CDPR is a smaller team, they put their other project on halt to complete TW3.

 

I dont know how much exact effort it requires to tweak a ready engine as oppose to creating a new one; a new one that is actually freaking amazing for that matter but I am guessing making RedEngine 3 requires more effort. So to sum things up:

 

1. New amazing open world engine just for a game.

2. Tons of meaty and great quests both main quests and side quests. (DAO on steroids level good imo)

3. Smaller team. 

4. Halt other project just to get it done properly and didnt compromise.

 

Thus I conclude that this silly Polish studio did not rush the endings (still not happy with my missing -Siege of Skyhold- finale. Otherwise I am very please with DAI to be honest), did not compromise on the game that they set out to make regardless of financial implications. We need more of such studios really.

 

DAI is great. I wish it had side quests like those in TW3 - multi layered and meaty ones. I also wish that they will not compromise on quests and content even if it may not be financially sound. 

[Gileadan]

Over 200 people worked almost four years to create TW3, according to CDP:R.

Does anyone know those numbers for DA:I?

That is the relevant comparison, I think, when it comes to the question of how much effort resulted in how much production value.

[AlanC9]

Thus I conclude that this silly Polish studio did not rush the endings (still not happy with my missing -Siege of Skyhold- finale. Otherwise I am very please with DAI to be honest), did not compromise on the game that they set out to make regardless of financial implications. We need more of such studios really.

I dunno. I've been gaming long enough to see what happens to studios -- and publishers -- that don't think about profitability. When you don't think about financial implications the financial implications will destroy you, sooner or later.

Honestly, I'm more impressed by the CD Projekt guys as businessmen and marketers than as developers. The "free DLC" scam is pure brilliance.

[Das Tentakel]

Paying 1/3 the salary does give them freedoms that Bio doesn't enjoy, true. Really, Bio should just get ahead of the curve and relocate to Shanghai. It worked for the guys who did FTL.

(Hey, anyone else remember that a few months ago the worry here was that DAI was so expensive that it was gonna destroy Bioware?)

 

CDPR really had to expand in order to make Witcher III, and there was a substantial influx of western European devs (Germans, Dutch, French, Portuguese, Swedish etc.). Those are probably not paid Polish wages... CDPR is still significantly smaller than BioWare (even after years of expansion due to Witcher III's development demands), can't count on any support from other divisions of the EA empire, doesn't enjoy the same level of subsidies that Canadian studios do (in Quebec and elsewhere, though there may be some EU money available in Poland) etc.

 

In general, though, it's probably better to compare total amount of manyears put into to the game. My hunch is that the total amount of man-years is probably roughly comparable. That total development costs are less than DA:I's is plausible, but relatively speaking Witcher III seems to be a project roughly on the same scale as DA:I.

[TheOgre]

I agree the side quests in TW3 are much better than those in DAI. They are layered, meaty and more interactive. But then, I feel little motivations to complete every side quests in TW3. I am frankly bored. I just want to rush to the main storyline. While I hate the power system in DAI, at least it gives me some incentive to explore and complete the short quests (which are poorly made, but short enough to complete in mere minutes).

I don't know what's wrong with me as I really think TW3 has a better quest system, but it really bores me to death and I am currently putting this game aside.

Ahh.. I suppose the flaw of having so much more to do is it is possible to get bored and just want to rush the main story for time or other reasons. I think it's natural honestly. Just do what your doing and set he game down and wait until you feel like playing it again.

Took me months by the way to through bg1 despite liking it all the way. So much side quests and content I just found my self personally satisfied with my time spent ((not saying your feeling satisfied at all just my personal experience with bg))

[Das Tentakel]

Over 200 people worked almost four years to create TW3, according to CDP:R.

Does anyone know those numbers for DA:I?

That is the relevant comparison, I think, when it comes to the question of how much effort resulted in how much production value.

 

Well, the roots of DA:I go back to 2011 I think, and some projects (the multiplayer game and the cancelled DA3 expansion) were 'folded into' DA:I. As of 2010 BioWare had around 800 employees (then about 8 times that of CDPR I seem to remember), but only about half of those were in Edmonton I think. Assuming half of Edmonton worked on DA:I, 3.5 to 4 years of development, some overlap with the other studios and other divisions of EA (meaning that people in the other EA BioWare divisions were borrowed for the DA:I project when needed, and of course assistance by DICE with the Frostbite engine): Probably about the same as CDPR.

 

Relative efficiency was always an advantage of CDPR I think. Regardless of their flaws, the Witcher I and II were developed with only a fraction of the manpower that was available to earlier BioWare titles. A stronger focus (fixed player character etc.) probably helps, but there may be some organisational and cultural differences at play too.

Those differences may be hard to emulate, by the way.

[ashwind]

I dunno. I've been gaming long enough to see what happens to studios -- and publishers -- that don't think about profitability. When you don't think about financial implications the financial implications will destroy you, sooner or later.

Honestly, I'm more impressed by the CD Projekt guys as businessmen and marketers than as developers. The "free DLC" scam is pure brilliance.

 

True but there needs to be a balance. Honestly, DAI would be perfect for me if the finale isnt so... rush and given how ME3's ending was done... I cannot help but think that it was cut short due to budget and time.

 

Of course developers and publishers need to make money but to what extend? I do not expect Bioware/EA to give us as much as what CDPR gave us, for example: TW2 Enhanced Edition free to all who previously bought TW2 level of generosity.

 

DA2 and ME3's backlash is the perfect example of what happens when business monkeys think too much about financial report than the product that they are suppose to make. Luckily DAI showed solid effort and investment from Bioware. I sincerely believe that Bioware cannot survive another DA2 flop which will spell the end of DA.

 

To be honest, the "free DLC scam" works only for CDPR, I am sure if Bioware releases an alternative look and a small side quest as a DLC free or not, they will be flamed to hell and beyond. Why?

 

Reputation.

 

CDPR has a reputation of treating their fans nice since TW1 so they can get away with a lot more than other studios. Thus I believe that there is more to business than just immediate profit. As a consumer, of course I will support studios like CDPR and hope they continue to do well and dont become sell outs. *fingers crossed*

[Eelectrica]

Just adding another "Ewww" for premade protagonists like Geralt - an absolute dealbreaker. Carry on.

I completely respect and understand that. If given a choice, I'd absolutely love to create my own character to play with in the Witcher universe.

Long may Bioware continue to give us choice in creating our  characters and keep it party based.

As well as tactical combat, with a few more enhancements made between now and then.

[Eelectrica]

I dunno. I've been gaming long enough to see what happens to studios -- and publishers -- that don't think about profitability. When you don't think about financial implications the financial implications will destroy you, sooner or later.

Honestly, I'm more impressed by the CD Projekt guys as businessmen and marketers than as developers. The "free DLC" scam is pure brilliance.

You don't know what a scam is do you?

A scam would be CDPR promising the DLC and not actually delivering it. So far they have delivered exactly what they promised in regards to free DLC. CDPR have not taken our money and run, which would be inline with it being a scam. They have released a few patches so far to improve gameplay, so if their intent is to scam customers, I'm pretty sure they're doing it wrong.

 

The DA Inquisitors edition was damn near a scam given the pathetically low quality of the contents it shipped with.

 

Whilst I see it as something of a cynical marketing excerise, taking a bit of a shot at a few publishers, Like say 2K for example who where flogging off a whole bunch of character skins for BL2 at around $2 (us) each. That is more of a scam as it doesn't actually do anything to improve player stats. The abomination that was BL:TPS's Holodome DLC was damn near a scam given its horrid quality and it being a very slight remodel of a map already in the base game.

 

It can also add reason for people who have finished the game to go back and see what new goodies and quests await. Apparently next up is an upgraded crossbow and a new armour set, so people who have finished the game might like to go back and try them out.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

I dunno. I've been gaming long enough to see what happens to studios -- and publishers -- that don't think about profitability. When you don't think about financial implications the financial implications will destroy you, sooner or later.

Honestly, I'm more impressed by the CD Projekt guys as businessmen and marketers than as developers. The "free DLC" scam is pure brilliance.

exactly... if you call delivering scamming, ofc

 

they think about profit, what publisher doesn't. they just think ahead. trust-based marketing seems more profitable in the long-run than scamming

[Dreadstruck]

Really, Kulyok? I loved your mods for BG2 but after that foolish knee jerk statement you just posted, I lost tons of respect for you.
 

No there isn't. Not aside from the one that you and others want to make up to make some developers seem better when they call their DLC "expansions".
 
 
Yes, they are. You can say they're not, but that doesn't make it right. DLC literally means "DownLoadble Content", not "cheaper and smaller add-ons". Likewise, expansion refers to an add-on that *expands* onto the core game. The size of the package in question is irrelevant. The terms are synonymous with each other.
 
 
 
I'm fairly certain the concept of DLC was to sell fans of games extra pieces of content after the game had been released.
 
But hey, it's not nearly as cool or edgy to point out facts, it's much more entertaining to invent a narrative to try and convert people to whatever our ideology is.

 
Cool and edgy? Invent a narrative? Are you like trolling or just legitimately being dense?
 
How about you actually look up what you're arguing about before typing whatever comes to your mind? You seem to really lack the basic knowledge of what these terms mean.
 
They are not the same thing when it comes to the content and their history and that's what I just explained in my second post. Just because publishers nowadays like to plaster the word DLC over any sort of addition still doesn't make the difference go away as you wish. (hence the misconception of the devs supposedly "lying" about their free DLC plan, when in fact, they weren't. But what else to expect from people who are dead set on finding an malicious and ulterior motive on them, right?)
 
Refer to my second post on the matter:
 
Oh, and in case you turn into an edgelord yourself and accuse me of making it up all that, I suggest reading this as well:
 
https://noplatform.w...meaning-of-dlc/ - You definitely might wanna read this one before replying.

http://www.learntoco...uperior-to-dlc/

http://en.wikipedia....oadable_content

http://en.wikipedia..../Expansion_pack

[TammieAZ]

I got the impression that the JoH area was originally part of the main game that didn't end up finished in time for release but was later finished and released as DLC because you're right, it's like they didn't listen to feedback at all when making it. It's the same as any other random area map except the random tasks seem to tie into the bigger "area quest" better. Maybe it's just me.

 

 

Yeah, it would have been amazing if Geralt could have had 15 versions of a shaved head to choose from instead of a handful of dynamic and well modeled styles...

 

Interesting that you can call a game a "drag" in one sentence and in the very next admit that you have never actually played it. I guess I'm qualified to say that CoD sucks because I've watched random 5 minute clips on youtube of other people playing it.

 

I've played the 2nd Witcher game . I'm not missing out on anything.  

[Torgette]

Well, the roots of DA:I go back to 2011 I think, and some projects (the multiplayer game and the cancelled DA3 expansion) were 'folded into' DA:I. As of 2010 BioWare had around 800 employees (then about 8 times that of CDPR I seem to remember), but only about half of those were in Edmonton I think. Assuming half of Edmonton worked on DA:I, 3.5 to 4 years of development, some overlap with the other studios and other divisions of EA (meaning that people in the other EA BioWare divisions were borrowed for the DA:I project when needed, and of course assistance by DICE with the Frostbite engine): Probably about the same as CDPR.

 

Relative efficiency was always an advantage of CDPR I think. Regardless of their flaws, the Witcher I and II were developed with only a fraction of the manpower that was available to earlier BioWare titles. A stronger focus (fixed player character etc.) probably helps, but there may be some organisational and cultural differences at play too.

Those differences may be hard to emulate, by the way.

 

Hard to say how many people actually worked on DAI until they release that number, but using the 2010 number isn't very reliable since they were still deep in SWTOR's development and they've opened another studio since then.

[The Elder King]

Hard to say how many people actually worked on DAI until they release that number, but using the 2010 number isn't very reliable since they were still deep in SWTOR's development and they've opened another studio since then.

SWTOR was developed in Austin. I doubt it affected Edmonton.

[HowlingSiren]

With all due respect, I think people who have not played TW3 should refrain from having knee-jerk reactions of the “Noooo, never, I hate Geralt”- type, and look at what most people asking BW to take a closer look at TW3 are actually saying.

 

I’m a longtime, huge BioWare fan and they remain my favorite developer, but I have to say, The Witcher 3 is one of the best games I ever played, and to me, it outshines DAI (which I loved btw).  I’m definitely NOT calling for BioWare to make a carbon copy of TW3, to drop the different protagonists or the companions, but there are some aspects of TW3 that I personally believe would greatly enhance any BW game.

 

TW3 shines when it comes to quest design and the integration of both quests and main missions in an open world environment. Looking at what’s most criticized about DAI on these forums, I doubt there are many DAI players who wouldn’t have liked to have seen more meaningful quests in the different regions, and longer/more main missions. TW3 achieves that, and I would love to have more fleshed out sidequests and more/better integrated main missions in the next BW game. I adored the main quests in DAI, but I did feel that there were too few for the length of the playthrough and that there was no sense of urgency throughout.

 

Another thing I think TW3 did exceptionally well was insert choice into almost every conversation in the game, and the consequences of those choices are felt throughout the playthrough, culminating at the end. When I say “end”, I should say “endings”, because there are quite a variety of different outcomes, many of which will catch you by surprise. DAO had variety (although those endings were based on far less choices than you have in TW3), but sadly since then, the concept of different endings was kinda lost. I’d love to see it brought back for the next game.  

 

TW3 also manages to tell a deeply personal story with an epic backdrop, with a significant amount of character development over the playthrough, a lot of it driven by your choices as the player. As a result, as a female gamer very fond of playing different origins and races, I adored playing as Geralt in TW3. Again, not saying that BW should have straight white male protagonists, not at all, but by the end, I enjoyed playing my Geralt almost as much as my FemShep and that for me, is saying something. Never would have imagined that in a million years as I thought TW1 and 2 were merely okay games and Geralt until TW3 was just meh. 

 

Finally, the small touches: how the world reacts to you as a witcher, and how that perception evolves over the course of game, depending on what you did or did not do in a particular region. Ambient NPCs comment non-stop and you both see and feel your mark on the world in big and small ways. Just an example of the level of detail TW3 goes into: one of your potential love interests even comments on you growing a beard (there is automatic beard growth over time, you need to get to a barber to stay clean shaven), but only if you indeed have a beard. Those small touches make the experience very personal and unique. 

 

This is not to me about a dev war or a fan war. This is simply feedback from both a DA and ME fan on what particularly impressed her in another game in the same genre, and what she hopes to experience again. Feel free to take it or leave it, just had to say it. 

[Saphiron123]

True but there needs to be a balance. Honestly, DAI would be perfect for me if the finale isnt so... rush and given how ME3's ending was done... I cannot help but think that it was cut short due to budget and time.

Of course developers and publishers need to make money but to what extend? I do not expect Bioware/EA to give us as much as what CDPR gave us, for example: TW2 Enhanced Edition free to all who previously bought TW2 level of generosity.

DA2 and ME3's backlash is the perfect example of what happens when business monkeys think too much about financial report than the product that they are suppose to make. Luckily DAI showed solid effort and investment from Bioware. I sincerely believe that Bioware cannot survive another DA2 flop which will spell the end of DA.

To be honest, the "free DLC scam" works only for CDPR, I am sure if Bioware releases an alternative look and a small side quest as a DLC free or not, they will be flamed to hell and beyond. Why?

Reputation.

CDPR has a reputation of treating their fans nice since TW1 so they can get away with a lot more than other studios. Thus I believe that there is more to business than just immediate profit. As a consumer, of course I will support studios like CDPR and hope they continue to do well and dont become sell outs. *fingers crossed*

I can't believe there are people offended by the fact they're adding free content to a game I already bought and which they could leave as is.

It's hardly a scam. It's called treating your customers with a measure of respect after release. Meanwhile bioware gives us a $15 price tag for yet another map, delays it by two months on most systems and refuses to comment on other platforms as part of the exclusive.

CDPR is releasing two small free dlc packs each week for 8 weeks. If that's a scam I hope others follow in suit because all ea ever gave us was a middle finger between patches, a rehash of the black emporium with no new CC content, and some multiplayer stuff that means nothing to the main game.

CDPR left old gen behind to deliver the best experience they could, bioware cut half their features on all platforms and released it anyway in a state that's barely functional on old consoles. Imagine how much they could have done if those resources had been used properly.

[MoonDrummer]

I've played the 2nd Witcher game . I'm not missing out on anything.  

And I've played the second Dragon Age game. Ended up with two pencils sticking out of my eyes. 

[Saphiron123]

With all due respect, I think people who have not played TW3 should refrain from having knee-jerk reactions of the “Noooo, never, I hate Geralt”- type, and look at what most people asking BW to take a closer look at TW3 are actually saying.

I’m a longtime, huge BioWare fan and they remain my favorite developer, but I have to say, The Witcher 3 is one of the best games I ever played, and to me, it outshines DAI (which I loved btw). I’m definitely NOT calling for BioWare to make a carbon copy of TW3, to drop the different protagonists or the companions, but there are some aspects of TW3 that I personally believe would greatly enhance any BW game.

TW3 shines when it comes to quest design and the integration of both quests and main missions in an open world environment. Looking at what’s most criticized about DAI on these forums, I doubt there are many DAI players who wouldn’t have liked to have seen more meaningful quests in the different regions, and longer/more main missions. TW3 achieves that, and I would love to have more fleshed out sidequests and more/better integrated main missions in the next BW game. I adored the main quests in DAI, but I did feel that there were too few for the length of the playthrough and that there was no sense of urgency throughout.

Another thing I think TW3 did exceptionally well was insert choice into almost every conversation in the game, and the consequences of those choices are felt throughout the playthrough, culminating at the end. When I say “end”, I should say “endings”, because there are quite a variety of different outcomes, many of which will catch you by surprise. DAO had variety (although those endings were based on far less choices than you have in TW3), but sadly since then, the concept of different endings was kinda lost. I’d love to see it brought back for the next game.

TW3 also manages to tell a deeply personal story with an epic backdrop, with a significant amount of character development over the playthrough, a lot of it driven by your choices as the player. As a result, as a female gamer very fond of playing different origins and races, I adored playing as Geralt in TW3. Again, not saying that BW should have straight white male protagonists, not at all, but by the end, I enjoyed playing my Geralt almost as much as my FemShep and that for me, is saying something. Never would have imagined that in a million years as I thought TW1 and 2 were merely okay games and Geralt until TW3 was just meh.

Finally, the small touches: how the world reacts to you as a witcher, and how that perception evolves over the course of game, depending on what you did or did not do in a particular region. Ambient NPCs comment non-stop and you both see and feel your mark on the world in big and small ways. Just an example of the level of detail TW3 goes into: one of your potential love interests even comments on you growing a beard (there is automatic beard growth over time, you need to get to a barber to stay clean shaven), but only if you indeed have a beard. Those small touches make the experience very personal and unique.

This is not to me about a dev war or a fan war. This is simply feedback from both a DA and ME fan on what particularly impressed her in another game in the same genre, and what she hopes to experience again. Feel free to take it or leave it, just had to say it.

You nailed it. What made dragon age special in past games was it felt personal. The witcher feels this way now. DAI didn't, it didn't care about my choices, it threw away the wonderful replayability of past games by dropping the type of side quests where there was always new companion dialogue and it just demanded to be replayed, replacing it with a more shallow experience. Tactics were thrown out in favor of cheap ai because it was assumed they were too hard to learn, and there was very little respect for past lore in service to Gaider's personal thoughts.

The witcher took what it started with and improved it in every way, but stayed true to what it was. There's very little in common between DAO and DAI.

[Andreas Amell]

So overall, it's really the main story that's the driving force of the Witcher 3. In that case, it's not really an open world experience but a main quest that branches out to smaller quests. Neither Dragon Age or the Witcher series are really open world environments, compared to Skyrim. I find the Witcher novels more interesting, not just because it's the original source, but because it offers a different voice to the fantasy genre. (That voice doesn't sound like the mayor of Carmel.)

[KBomb]

I dunno. I've been gaming long enough to see what happens to studios -- and publishers -- that don't think about profitability. When you don't think about financial implications the financial implications will destroy you, sooner or later.

Honestly, I'm more impressed by the CD Projekt guys as businessmen and marketers than as developers. The "free DLC" scam is pure brilliance.

Scam? lol wth? I am not sure you know what that word means. It means a dishonest promise for something in return. A fraud. A lie in order to gain. Not, "Here, take these dlc for buying our game and enjoy"

[HowlingSiren]

So overall, it's really the main story that's the driving force of the Witcher 3. In that case, it's not really an open world experience but a main quest that branches out to smaller quests. Neither Dragon Age or the Witcher series are really open world environments, compared to Skyrim. I find the Witcher novels more interesting, not just because it's the original source, but because it offers a different voice to the fantasy genre. (That voice doesn't sound like the mayor of Carmel.)

It's not. The main story is a strong backbone, but it most definitely is an open world experience. Not as open as Skyrim where the main story just faded away in the background completely, but each region has its own distinct political issues not directly linked to the main story and a ton of well-developed quests with no link either. Exploration is also rewarded, in the sense that you come across good loot or trigger a quest by virtue of finding something by accident, and not necessarily having it handed to you by a quest-giver.