15875 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ah ok

I should have made that clearer. My apologies. 

[TheRaccoon]

The answer is pretty easily. The issue is that what people relate to as creating an emotional connection varies quite wildly. TW3 - while having Geralt pre-set in a lot of ways - only really does it with respect to gender/appearance and then (to some degree) personality/tone (but personality in the real sense - he's kind of repressed about his emotions and loves his dry witticism). 

 

That's why I always prefer Hawke's approach, minimising variables, offering sets of personalities etc. Though I understand not everyone is a fan of DA2.

[TheOgre]

That's why I always prefer Hawke's approach, minimising variables, offering sets of personalities etc. Though I understand not everyone is a fan of DA2.

 

You will find quite a few people here that enjoy Hawke and I am one of those people. I think they should do that kind of style if they ever make a preset character. He displayed a variety of emotions and actions resulted with his personality.

[Eelectrica]

 This greatly hinders the writers in their abilities to deliver a more personal-level, touching storyline since every single feature of the protagonist can be altered (gender, class, race and even their beliefs).

Not true. Pillars of Eternity does that quite well I feel and we have total choice of what and who our character is. Race, gender, homeland.

It's not a really a story about saving the world, it is a personal story about saving your characters sanity. 

Granted it doesn't have the family stuff, but I think even that could be done if they wanted to and had time.

[Nefla]

Not true. Pillars of Eternity does that quite well I feel and we have total choice of what and who our character is. Race, gender, homeland.

It's not a really a story about saving the world, it is a personal story about saving your characters sanity. 

Granted it doesn't have the family stuff, but I think even that could be done if they wanted to and had time.

I think a "free progagonist" can only work really well when the protagonist is not voiced. The protagonist not having a voice allows for MANY more dialogue options, persuade options, etc...this is something I really liked with FO:NV (many dialogue options based on your skills, past behavior, stats, faction, etc...). I think a voiced protagonist does need a bit of personality for me to like them. I liked Shepard in that way and I liked Hawke (though I would have toned down the extremes of Hawke's voice acting by like 1/3). I felt like the inquisitor was far too neutral and boring no matter what you did. (and there was not a lot of variance in choice and personality options to begin with)

 

I don't usually like set protagonists at all, but I actually really loved Geralt in TW3 and unlike in TW2 I didn't find myself thinking "I wish I could make my own character instead."

[Innsmouth Dweller]

- customization (set race, gender, whatever you wish)

- voiced PC

- immersion (interactive world, full RPG experience)

pick any two

 

i prefer customization + immersion

[Andreas Amell]

Geralt isn't a blank slate to me because I know he's based on Sapkowski's stories. I'm looking for the earliest short stories just so I can know about Emhyr as the cursed Duny, not as that emperor.

[Eelectrica]

- customization (set race, gender, whatever you wish)

- voiced PC

- immersion (interactive world, full RPG experience)

pick any two

 

i prefer customization + immersion

 

Pretty much my preferences as well. If I find a game interesting I'll generally adapt to whatever is happening, but prefer my own character where possible.

[

 

I think a "free progagonist" can only work really well when the protagonist is not voiced. The protagonist not having a voice allows for MANY more dialogue options, persuade options, etc...this is something I really liked with FO:NV (many dialogue options based on your skills, past behavior, stats, faction, etc...). I think a voiced protagonist does need a bit of personality for me to like them. I liked Shepard in that way and I liked Hawke (though I would have toned down the extremes of Hawke's voice acting by like 1/3). I felt like the inquisitor was far too neutral and boring no matter what you did. (and there was not a lot of variance in choice and personality options to begin with)

 

I don't usually like set protagonists at all, but I actually really loved Geralt in TW3 and unlike in TW2 I didn't find myself thinking "I wish I could make my own character instead."

It is true that Pillars used the silent protag style and with that came a lot of different dialogue choices based on characters stats etc.

 

Technology might be able to solve the voiced PC problem with audio filters. The VA does a neutral style voice and audio filters add different emotions. so the same dialogue could heard a variety of different ways. Perhaps the technology isn't quite there yet.

[Das Tentakel]

I don't mind things like sex or foul language in games or any other medium, unless it's done immaturely or for sake of 'sex and foul language' being there.
 
But with Witcher... let me just say it, with Polish version... it kinda feels "right at home" for me
 
I live in rural region of Poland, so I hear this kind of old type dialect ("gwara") I frequently hear in game IRL - I grew up surrounded by it. And naturally, there's also a TON of swearing in there (you should hear some of my family members... Jeez...).
Normal folks just talk that way - there was little place for eloquence and finesse, especially among common people, peasants and the like. They swore colorfully 20 years ago and they did it at times equivalent to Witcher. It's just how life is.

And as I remarked before, it's probably also much closer (in spirit) to how medieval people spoke. Moreover, social differences in language weren't as pronounced in the medieval / early modern era; that came later, as ridiculed by Moliere (for instance in 'Les précieuses ridicules').

What is true is that swearwords evolve over time. I ran into this medieval Dutch one that sort of fits the Witcher setting: 'Alffsgespuijs', which means 'Elf-scum', but with negative overtones akin to 'Devilspawn'.

Another favourite was 'sluypratte' ('stealthy rat'), which referred to prostitutes who practised their trade covertly (illegally).

Compared to the modern (Americanized)standard Dutch swearing repertoire, medieval and early modern swearing words were incredibly diverse and highly colourful.

[SnakeCode]

You will find quite a few people here that enjoy Hawke and I am one of those people. I think they should do that kind of style if they ever make a preset character. He displayed a variety of emotions and actions resulted with his personality.

 

Hawke is my favourite protagonist from the three DA games we've had. It's less due to the customisation though and more due to the similarities s/he shares with set protagonists. Hawke has a family, ready-made ties to other characters, motivations and beliefs. For all intents and purposes Hawke is a set character lore-wise. With the difference being you can change Hawke's gender, race (kind of) and sexual orientation. The same goes for Shepard too. Yes you have some sway over their personality but i'd argue no more so than you do with Geralt.

.

This is why I think a lot of people who say that they can't stand set protagonists actually enjoy them story-wise, what they don't like is being forced to play as a character that doesn't have the sex/orientation that they want to play as. I've had this feeling for a while now, after many of the conversations i've had with people on the BSN , about The Witcher and other games. I think it could also be a reason so many here claim to actively dislike Geralt (as in his personality) when they have never experienced or played the games, nor read the books.

[yawnandshrug]

Compared to the Witcher 3, I think what DAI really lacks is focus. The Dragon Age needs to pick something, one or two things, and do them really well. For the Witcher 3, you can easily see that the dev team was committed to creating as immersive a world as possible and to tell fantastic stories through their quest narratives. Combat and movement were abit iffy but they that's a minor quibble in the light of the fact that where they aimed to succeed, they did spectacularity well. 

 

Whereas the problem with DAI is that it seems to be trying to imitate the success of Skyrim and avoid the pitfalls of DA2 without actually building an identity or focus of it's own. Meaning that in the end, you get something that's Dragon Age origins-lite and Skyrim-lite without being as good as either. There is no shame in saying 'hey I don't think an open world sandbox is the best medium for what we're trying to do so let's not do that', neither Dark Souls nor Bloodborne are open world but they are loved for the sheer amount of polish that goes into their combat systems. So pick what you want to do and be the best, not do the best you can. BE the best.

 

On several aspects that could be worked on for DA4, the Witcher 3 has obliterated any excuse for lazy fetch quests that result from overhearing a conversation or finding a dead man's note, these sort of MMOish padding quests should be scrapped entirely. Lots of people have talked about the success of the Witcher 3's overlapping quest structure so I won't repeat that. That said, there is an unspoken structure to open world sandboxes which DAI lacked. Open world sandboxes tend to be a balance between long term and short term goals. You have these overarching themes, slay Alduin, find Ciri, and your short term goals tend to be tied to that. You go to Whiterun to warn people about the dragons and there become absorbed in the quests present there, you go the Velen to search for clues and there discover a monster contract which you fulfill because you need the money. Fulfilling a short term goal makes you tangibly stronger and builds you towards that long term goal. For DAI once you arrive at skyhold, there seems to be a major disconnect between your long term goal (defeating corypheaus) and everything else. Suddenly you have a huge number of optional areas open to you, but no reason as to why you should get involved. The most you get is venetori/red templar activity spotted, but nothing more compelling than that.

 

If you want to create an open world, emphasize quality over quantity. the Witcher 3 had three major areas that were HUGE and done beautifully, even skyrim was ultimately one land. DAI tried to deliver this large variety of maybe a dozen distinct areas. Whilst the effort is laudable, it feels like the team spread themselves too thin and create many small, mediocre areas instead of a smaller number of large, immersive and fleshed out ones. Both the Witcher 3 and DAI tell stories about huge wars, but where DAI is content to inform the player that there is a war going on and people are in dire straits, the Witcher 3 constantly shows us it's effects. Hanged corpses by the street, massive pyres, nothing much in the DAI reinforces the supposedly apocalyptic danger that hangs over everyone. I think in creating a world like this, devs shouldn't be afraid of having players miss out on content. Everything is DAI is highlighted with massive markers and signs screaming LOOK HERE! which ultimately defeats the purpose of exploration. One moves from marker to marker rather than explore the world. I remember one of the most affecting moments for me in the Witcher 3 just happened as I was travelling, there was no marker or warning, just a rabid dog barking at a house. Curious, I approached and cut down the dog to find a bunch of orphans and abandoned children taking shelter in the house. There was nothing I could do save offer them some food and that really drove home how shitty the war is.

 

Now this may sound strange but I think bioware could afford to work on companions and story. The Witcher 3 had characters with fleshed out motivations and personalities, whereas just about every companion in DAI is solely defined by one or two key points around which everything revolves. I think reintroducing abit of complexity in the vein of Morrigan, Alistar or DAO Lelianna would be nice. Consider Vivienne or Dorian or Blackwall, what do they actually bring to the inquisition? Why are they there, Vivienne just stands at the balcony, I've never seen any of the loyal mages she promised or felt their impact. Perhaps the approval/disapproval system should go, replaced by a mass effect style system which feels less clunky than Cassandra approves. Also when characters in the Witcher 3 want to speak to you, they come to you and tell you. I think it's a much more organic system than having to run rounds around skyhold checking to see if anyone has anything to say. On a similar note, and I'm probably going to get flamed for this, I think Bioware is indulging the whole social justice thing to the detriment of their storytelling. I want to play Dragon Age where things are delineated in shades of grey where good and bad are relative terms, like the choice between Harrowmont and Bhelen, not social justice warrior simulator 2014 where I'm dragged into Dorian's coming out story without the option of walking away from a very private argument or trying to broach a compromise between Dorian and his father (like maybe marry for his duty whilst seeing men on the side, Alistar can do it in DAO). Instead Dorian is 100% right and all I affect is whether he reconciles with his father or rejects him entirely.

[Xetykins]

(like maybe marry for his duty whilst seeing men on the side, Alistar can do it in DAO). Instead Dorian is 100% right and all I affect is whether he reconciles with his father or rejects him entirely.

That's great idea actually but poor Dorian. Unlike Alistair who would be marrying someone from the opposite gender as his per preference, Dorian wont be.

[yawnandshrug]

Real people do things personally distasteful for a greater objective all the time. Also can I just yell PRIORITIES! I'm trying to save the world and deal with an omnicidal maniac here, any other time I'd be happy to listen to your coming out of the closet story or bring you the heart of a wyvern or play some pranks but let's keep things in perspective here shall we.

[Das Tentakel]

Real people do things personally distasteful for a greater objective all the time. Also can I just yell PRIORITIES! I'm trying to save the world and deal with an omnicidal maniac here, any other time I'd be happy to listen to your coming out of the closet story or bring you the heart of a wyvern or play some pranks but let's keep things in perspective here shall we.

Well, in the case of Vivienne I was actually surprised her quests did not interweave politics and intrigue and yes, personal matters, while still being relevant to the main quest.

None of that. Same with Dorian by the way. Their personal stories were narratively very...isolated.Of course, that also means they're totally avoidable and disposable.

I don't feel there is a 'hard' distinction between, say, BioWarian companion quests in DA:I and character-linked quests in TW3, but the relationship between the world, what's happening in it, the characters themselves and the ties to Geralt appear to be much more tightly interwoven. A difference in degree rather than in kind perhaps, but significant enough it really looms large in my perception of the quests themselves.

[Torgette]

Yes!! I think this is the really question!! People love to customise their own characters, headcanoning their backgorund etc. in BW games. This greatly hinders the writers in their abilities to deliver a more personal-level, touching storyline since every single feature of the protagonist can be altered (gender, class, race and even their beliefs).

 

Which i'm fine with, not everybody connects to Geralt or his situation with Ciri - there is no perfect solution to that issue. I'd rather still have the blank slate than having everybody forced to have the same personality and the same background. To me the origin story still makes a lot of sense and could be done in multiple ways (not just at the beginning of the game), there's also other ways for the player to build their personality throughout a game simply by bouncing things off of others as well as having systems like a reputation system or friendship/rivalry.

[Torgette]

- customization (set race, gender, whatever you wish)

- voiced PC

- immersion (interactive world, full RPG experience)

pick any two

 

i prefer customization + immersion

 

Oh give me a break DAI is structurally unpolished, but it's not literally a ceiling to game development.

[Torgette]

...

I think in creating a world like this, devs shouldn't be afraid of having players miss out on content.

...

 

I think this is a great comment, Bioware has a good reputation of not being afraid of doing this with side characters' personal stories but not with the actual world content. I think while they had good intentions with the multiple optional zones, it seems like their priorities were out of balance and the actual quest content suffered heavily for it. I did actually like the way the zones themselves looked - they're very memorable and interesting to explore and hope they keep that fantastical look for another game at least, but you also want to have memorable content in those zones otherwise it can be a shallow experience.

[Grieving Natashina]

I think this is a great comment, Bioware has a good reputation of not being afraid of doing this with side characters' personal stories but not with the actual world content. I think while they had good intentions with the multiple optional zones, it seems like their priorities were out of balance and the actual quest content suffered heavily for it. I did actually like the way the zones themselves looked - they're very memorable and interesting to explore and hope they keep that fantastical look for another game at least, but you also want to have memorable content in those zones otherwise it can be a shallow experience.

I found myself largely agreeing with this.  The difference is that I did find the majority of the content in the zones memorable.  That being said, I felt the lack of connection between most of those zones and the main plot hurt the game quite a bit.  

 

I also felt that the devs relied too much on the players reading the EU, as characters like Michel, Imshael, Celene, Briala and Gaspard (among others) had very little on-screen characterization.  I've spend some time thinking about it, and I think I'd rather have less zones with a deeper connection and more lore focus.  As well as cut down on the plot-important War Table missions (looking at you, Wardens,) and offer more of those with player involvement.  More resource gathering and less text-heavy quests.  The War Table is a great idea, but it wasn't implemented very well.

 

Perhaps DA:I was a bit too ambitious and large in it's zones.  I'm not saying they should get rid of all of their strides towards open world, but maybe make it smaller.  That might allow for some of the suggestions offered in the thread, like having cinematic cutscenes for side quests, or having a choice you made in a sidequest actually come up later.  Also, we might actually get more of a full sized city.  I like VR, but I was pretty let down that I couldn't even look at the White Spire, or even talk to a NPC about it in the city.  It hasn't been that long since Big Nose declared an annulment, and I would have preferred to see some sort of reaction in game outside of the companions briefly offering their PoV on the matter.

 

I guess I'd rather have fewer zones, a larger city and a real connection to the main plot from the zones.  Very few of the sidequests had much more meaning than some flavor text/dialogue, experience points and Power points.  I'd like to see side quests with more of an impact, not to mention fewer of them.  I think the devs would benefit from that direction.   

 

As an aside, if you skip most of the Requisition quests (like I did,) and just focus on the regular main quests/side quests, you don't need to do any grinding for power.  After replaying it, so far the number of actual fetch quests isn't that big.  Ignore the constantly talking NPC at camp and you'll save yourself a lot of busywork.

[correctamundo]

... no reason as to why you should get involved. The most you get is venetori/red templar activity spotted, but nothing more compelling than that.

 

... nothing much in the DAI reinforces the supposedly apocalyptic danger that hangs over everyone. 

 

... Everything is DAI is highlighted with massive markers and signs screaming LOOK HERE! which ultimately defeats the purpose of exploration.

 

... Instead Dorian is 100% right and all I affect is whether he reconciles with his father or rejects him entirely.

 

If venatori and/or red templar activity isn´t enough to get your attention then maybe you should hand in your resignation.

 

...except the exalted plains, emprise de lion, hinterlands, crestwood?

 

...we have the same eclamation and question marks in TW3, we got a chanters board, rift and camps. What we don´t have in DAI is all the cut scenes, in a way luckily as I see it, they are beautifully crafted but a bit tedious.The game gets a bit too slow. We even got the same "v spamming" and "f" for loot in TW3 =).

 

...Dorian has left Tevinter behind why on earth should he be compelled to step back into the closet? For "duty"? He made up his mind about this way back. If his lifestyle don´t suit your playstyle you can ask him to leave.

[Sasie]

If we look at the Witcher games as a trilogy to tell Geralt's story the same way Mass effect was Shepard's story then CD Red Project did a horrible job. Witcher 3 might be a nice stand alone game in a open world but as far as far as bringing closure to the story told in the earlier games it does a pretty horrible job. The most important characters to Geralt as a person doesn't even show up before the third game and everything that happened before is either changed or forgotten. Zoltan as I remember ended up drunk and miserable in Witcher 2 because I went with Roche's path but none of that are brought up when I meet him in Witcher 3.

The first game offered a choice between Shani or Triss, the second game said lets forget about Shani and build up Triss and then the third game brought in Yennefer. Geralt and Triss has broken up before the game even started. If this been a Bioware game the forums would been filled with hate over the poor consequences to choices made in the earlier games.

The main quest is also highly linear despite the open world and the choice and consequences people praise is not so different from what other RPGs managed to do in the past. The only truly outstanding part of the game is how many side/monster quests they managed to push into the game but even they get old eventually.

[pdusen]

(Hey, anyone else remember that a few months ago the worry here was that DAI was so expensive that it was gonna destroy Bioware?)

 

I don't think that was a worry, so much as the hope of one very loud, very persistant individual (who to this day probably believes that DAI isn't selling, because he wants it to fail so much)

[correctamundo]

I found myself largely agreeing with this.  The difference is that I did find the majority of the content in the zones memorable.  That being said, I felt the lack of connection between most of those zones and the main plot hurt the game quite a bit.  

 

I also felt that the devs relied too much on the players reading the EU, as characters like Michel, Imshael, Celene, Briala and Gaspard (among others) had very little on-screen characterization.  I've spend some time thinking about it, and I think I'd rather have less zones with a deeper connection and more lore focus.  As well as cut down on the plot-important War Table missions (looking at you, Wardens,) and offer more of those with player involvement.  More resource gathering and less text-heavy quests.  The War Table is a great idea, but it wasn't implemented very well.

 

Perhaps DA:I was a bit too ambitious and large in it's zones.  I'm not saying they should get rid of all of their strides towards open world, but maybe make it smaller.  That might allow for some of the suggestions offered in the thread, like having cinematic cutscenes for side quests, or having a choice you made in a sidequest actually come up later.  Also, we might actually get more of a full sized city.  I like VR, but I was pretty let down that I couldn't even look at the White Spire, or even talk to a NPC about it in the city.  It hasn't been that long since Big Nose declared an annulment, and I would have preferred to see some sort of reaction in game outside of the companions briefly offering their PoV on the matter.

 

I guess I'd rather have fewer zones, a larger city and a real connection to the main plot from the zones.  Very few of the sidequests had much more meaning than some flavor text/dialogue, experience points and Power points.  I'd like to see side quests with more of an impact, not to mention fewer of them.  I think the devs would benefit from that direction.   

 

As an aside, if you skip most of the Requisition quests (like I did,) and just focus on the regular main quests/side quests, you don't need to do any grinding for power.  After replaying it, so far the number of actual fetch quests isn't that big.  Ignore the constantly talking NPC at camp and you'll save yourself a lot of busywork.

 

Mostly agree with what you are saying =). Especially about requisitions. I have done quite a few but never gone out of mý way to fill them. An they never stop coming ;-). It was somewhat obvious that those were extremely optional.

 

Cut scenes are nice but I find that I actually think they take to much gaming time away in TW3. I like the game but it hasn´t really hooked me yet. I mostlt want to start a new inquisitor but I will give TW3 a litlle more time first.

[Dreadstruck]

If venatori and/or red templar activity isn´t enough to get your attention then maybe you should hand in your resignation.

 

...except the exalted plains, emprise de lion, hinterlands, crestwood?

 

...we have the same eclamation and question marks in TW3, we got a chanters board, rift and camps. What we don´t have in DAI is all the cut scenes, in a way luckily as I see it, they are beautifully crafted but a bit tedious.The game gets a bit too slow. We even got the same "v spamming" and "f" for loot in TW3 =).

 

...Dorian has left Tevinter behind why on earth should he be compelled to step back into the closet? For "duty"? He made up his mind about this way back. If his lifestyle don´t suit your playstyle you can ask him to leave.

 

Have we played the same game here?  Unless I am understanding your post incorrectly (for which I apologize in advance), there is no such thing, even remotely similiar to "v" and "f" spamming in TW3 to my knowledge (which was ungodly annoying and unintuitive in DA:I). It's just a simple loot system that is present in other RPGs. With a possibility to use your Witcher sense to highlight items (some of which are already highlighted enough without even using the sense)

 

Also, all of the exclamation and question marks can be turned off (and see majority of people actually doing so.) Don't think there is such an option in DA:I? And if not, I would welcome it for their future titles.

[Aren]

Not really. Just saying "the open world is bad" and "the story is ****" doesn't tell anybody anything. What about the open world is bad? What about the story is bad? 9 times out of 10 it's people just coming in and saying "the game sucks Biower is evil TW3 is much better CDPR is the second coming", which isn't feedback in any capacity. It's an attack for the sake of having an attack.

After 136+ pages of interesting discussion in which many points have been analyzed in details by players who have played and compared the two games,there is still someone who believe that the entire Thread was created with a "whine purpose" in mind,even if all of us  could   have easily skipped the discussion and save time without add any  support for the next DA4.

[yawnandshrug]

If venatori and/or red templar activity isn´t enough to get your attention then maybe you should hand in your resignation.

 

 

The narrative of the game doesn't point you towards them or provide you with a reason to contest these areas, when skyhold opens it tells you to be ready for the ball and to meet Hawke which logically leads to those two quests and so you are free to do that but once those are finished, that's it, Cory is in the arbor wilds and the narrative urges you to rush there, you are not compelled, save for a short text description of things to wander off the beaten path. Contrast this to the witcher 3, after milking all the information about Ciri I can get from the Baron, I owe him nothing and have no real reason to stay. Yet I agreed to help him get his wife back because the main quest before has made me invested in events. It's a clever way of melding main quests and side quests which bioware can learn from.

 

 

...except the exalted plains, emprise de lion, hinterlands, crestwood?

 

 

 That's the problem you see, you have a village consisting of half a dozen houses being threatened as representative of the world at large and several nearby skirmishes (as in the case of the hinterlands) to represent this apocalyptic battle. There's just too much telling and not enough showing.

 

 

 

...we have the same eclamation and question marks in TW3, we got a chanters board, rift and camps. What we don´t have in DAI is all the cut scenes, in a way luckily as I see it, they are beautifully crafted but a bit tedious.The game gets a bit too slow. We even got the same "v spamming" and "f" for loot in TW3 =).

 

 

Actually exclamation points in the witcher 3 don't appear on the minimap until you find them. And a ? denotes an optional place of interest, what I mean is that level design in DA:I can benefit from a healthy does of subtlety. As for your opposition to voiced quests, well skip the narrative, the spacebar is there for you.

 

 

...Dorian has left Tevinter behind why on earth should he be compelled to step back into the closet? For "duty"? He made up his mind about this way back. If his lifestyle don´t suit your playstyle you can ask him to leave.

 

You're missing my point entirely, I did not imply that he should step back into the closet or immediately return to tevinter. I've got no problem with his lifestyle, however, the moral 'lesson' in his quest is cut and dried and shoved down your throat, dorian good, actions right, father bad and you are given no option but to be confined to one perspective of events, that is to say the game automatically assumes that you're siding with dorian, without any other options, which seems rather obnoxious. Personally my quizzy would've left the inn out of sheer embarrassment, it's a family matter in which I really don't have the right to judge.