15882 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

I'd have to disagree with the Inquisitor being poorly voiced. DA:I had quality voice acting. The flaws with the Inquisitor was that he or she has only the most bare bones of a backstory. The Inquisitor isn't exactly a blank slate, but he/she is the closest to it of any DA protagonist. It makes it harder to care about the character as much as say the Warden or Hawke, since there is never a point in the game where you feel like you know the character as well as prior protagonists. Obviously the Inquisitor was never going to get a playable Origin story like the Warden, but that isn't necessary to give a main character a well-established backstory. Commander Shepard is a good example of that.

[AresKeith]

I'd have to disagree with the Inquisitor being poorly voiced. DA:I had quality voice acting. The flaws with the Inquisitor was that he or she has only the most bare bones of a backstory. The Inquisitor isn't exactly a blank slate, but he/she is the closest to it of any DA protagonist. It makes it harder to care about the character as much as say the Warden or the Hawke, since there is never a point in the game where you feel like you know the character as well as prior protagonists. Obviously the Inquisitor was never going to get a playable Origin story like the Warden, but that isn't necessary to give a main character a well-established backstory. Commander Shepard is a good example of that.

 

That's why I was disappointed to see personal quests for the Inquisitor got cut 

[Han Shot First]

That's why I was disappointed to see personal quests for the Inquisitor got cut 

 

That is the first I've heard about personal quests. Was anything said on what they'd entail?

[AresKeith]

That is the first I've heard about personal quests. Was anything said on what they'd entail?

 

It was originally thought of when the game was human only based on their chosen background, I don't know if Bioware still had the idea when they switched to multiple races but I'd like to think so since it's a great idea lol

[Torgette]

@KBomb:  I totally agree there are improvements to be made, I just sometimes don't get threads like this.  I think it's the chaos in them and the broad generalizations.  Witcher is BEST!  No!  DA:I is BEST! 

 

I don't see nearly as much specific, detailed examples that can really help Bioware at all - and more: "My gaming style is superior." (Not coming from you, I'm mean in general.) 

 

I loved a lot of concepts from DA:I... but I found them to be in their extreme infancy.  My biggest worry is that they'll just scrap ideas for "new ideas!" for the next game which will still be in their infancy and suffer from the same lack of polish many concepts in DA:I did.  

 

If the Witcher has better consequences during side-quests that's great and I totally agree Bioware needs to do less celebrating the player and more sticking to their guns with chosen consequences.  I still remain somewhat dubious that Geralt ever really experiences any personal loss, failure, hardship - because very few games have the stones to do that, but since I'm not going to play it I have to take the word of those who have. 

 

I know the stats building speaks to a lot of people.  I can take it or leave it, but it resonates with a big crowd and I think Bioware had best strongly consider returning to a more traditional style of RPG character building (which I gather the Witcher has).

 

I'm curious how the side quests are better - can you provide me with an example that spoke to you?  What about it was better?  Is it because you got to decide the fate of several NPCs?  Is it because the writing was compelling?  

 

No, TW3 isn't traditional stat building, in fact it has more in common with DAI than not in this respect - it just has slots for abilities, so rather than developing a tree of abilities you're developing a bucket full of abilities from which you mix and match.

 

It works fine and I don't mind it as it encourages more experimentation than tree-based systems, but I still enjoy tree-based systems. DAI would be easier to add traditional stat building than TW3 in the respect that DAI with stat building would basically just be Diablo 2.

 

I do agree with the "infancy" issue with DAI's concepts, I don't want them to abandon them completely for something that is equally unfinished - i'd rather them actually develop them further and reach some potential. The Witcher 3 in many respects conceptually is old-hat, rather the strength of TW3 is that CDPR stuck to their guns and reached their potential.

[AmberDragon]

@AmberDragon:  Again, that relies on pre-scripted requirements the game is telling me my character cares about.  It's not something "I" did.  Totally great for those who love Geralt and the characters you mention - but not what I'm hoping to emulate in games I play. 

 

Some people hate the Inquisitor because he's forced to be neutral... but somehow everything forced about Geralt is superior.  I'm not sure I get that argument - it seems radically inconsistent.

You said and I quoted it above my reply that Geralt never experiences personal loss and I showed you that you were wrong. For that matter the Inquisitor never experiences personal loss either, if you are going to deny Geralt does then neither does your Inquisitor. See when you don't play the game you actually have very little idea what happens or how things happen within that game. What happens to Geralt and Ciri (as well as to a lesser extent Triss and Yennifer) at the end of the game is very dependent on the choices you make in the game.

 

On top of which I don't think anyone has said they want Bioware to make a Witcher clone, all any of us have done is point out that the quests and a few other things are better in Witcher 3 again something you can't know because as you have stated you haven't played it and have no intention of doing so.

 

I enjoyed DAI but the fetch quests were boring, there are no really well constructed and layered side quests, it felt to me that very few decisions my inquisitor made had any impact on the world, a world which feels empty and souless compared to Witcher 3 and the ending in DAI was a let down, I want to see what happens not just be told. The ending I got in Witcher 3 had a punch to it because

Spoiler

you see the affect Ciri's loss has on Geralt, you see how devastated he is, you see him make the decision to leave his swords buried in the last monster he kills as he goes into the house to retrieve a trinket that monster stole from Ciri. You see his loss and grief overtake him and you see the other monsters swarm the house as the camera pans out...

The final battle also felt better in Witcher 3, it felt more of a threat and you did more planning for it, not sure if it was because I played the Legacy dlc in DA2 ornot but Corypheus never felt like much of a threat in DAI, the final battle was a huge let down for me. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@AmberDragon: I'm being serious when I say that's great for someone who likes Geralt.  I'm not putting a value on the character development.

 

All I'm saying is that:  "I don't care about Geralt or Ciri." which is really to say: "I don't care about pre-generated materials the game is telling me this character, who isn't my own, cares about."  So anything that the game tells me happens... is little more than an action adventure with a pre-set character (for me).  I do enjoy pre-set character games - but not when I'm in the mood to play an RPG.

 

It's like Hawke's family.  I don't care about them.  The game doesn't give me the option to care about them.  It basically just says: "Family... GO!" 

 

Everything you wrote in your spoiler - did you choose that?  Or does the game tell you that that is how "your" character feels and thinks? 

 

As for the Inquisitor - yes, I absolutely believe he/she could have been better designed as far as agency.  In fact, I'll never be completely satisfied with any computer created PC outside of games like Neverwinter Nights that allows me to actually play tabletop on my computer (or the closest I've yet seen on PC). 

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't care about it.  You shouldn't enjoy it.  It shouldn't feel superior for you.  Nor was I really questioning whether it was character development cause it obviously is.  Just, not the type I'm looking for.

 

Your point about the final battle - absolutely agreed.  Corpyheus felt like a chump and the final battle was... meh.  I feel this is a stronger example of something that can be done better... because it's something both games share.  Pre-gen character vs. Blank Slate is a poor comparison as they're two totally different types of gameplay.

[Elhanan]

@AmberDragon: I'm being serious when I say that's great for someone who likes Geralt.  I'm not putting a value on the character development.
 
All I'm saying is that:  "I don't care about Geralt or Ciri." which is really to say: "I don't care about pre-generated materials the game is telling me this character, who isn't my own, cares about."  So anything that the game tells me happens... is little more than an action adventure with a pre-set character (for me).  I do enjoy pre-set character games - but not when I'm in the mood to play an RPG.
 
It's like Hawke's family.  I don't care about them.  The game doesn't give me the option to care about them.  It basically just says: "Family... GO!" 
 
Everything you wrote in your spoiler - did you choose that?  Or does the game tell you that that is how "your" character feels and thinks? 
 
As for the Inquisitor - yes, I absolutely believe he/she could have been better designed as far as agency.  In fact, I'll never be completely satisfied with any computer created PC outside of games like Neverwinter Nights that allows me to actually play tabletop on my computer (or the closest I've yet seen on PC). 
 
Your point about the final battle - absolutely agreed.  Corpyheus felt like a chump and the final battle was... meh.  I feel this is a stronger example of something that can be done better... because it's something both games share.  Pre-gen character vs. Blank Slate is a poor comparison as they're two totally different types of gameplay.

To defend DA2, the family one gets immediately can be followed with the attitude of preference. And as I recall, their appearance alters to help match that of a customized Hawke. Now while I was never harsh at the introduction (ie; was Kind or Snarky), the Player still got to choose how they wished to react, which is a point of a RPG.

As for pre-generated characters, NWN1 mods has hundreds of them; many of which are well made. But being able to RP those characters as each Player wishes is apparently a key element in the design; a reason as why NWN1 is also my fave game system.

And personally, I find Cory to be a top notch villain/ foe for the title. But then, I also enjoyed DA2, and was hoping to see a re-match, so I had an emotional investment.

[RINNZ]

How can we knock points off TW3 for not having a CC when it was never even an option to begin with? That's two different ball games. Bioware games always has a CC, been like that since day one. Until CB2077, CDProjektRed has never done a CC. How is not being able to play your own character suddenly the worst thing ever? I can't customize Nathan Drake in Uncharted. I still love the game. I can't customize Daniel from Amnesia or Miles Upshur/Waylon Park from Amesia and Outlast. Those are still amazing games.

When did pre defined characters stop being a good thing?

[Elhanan]

Have only read of it, but Geralt appears to offer some customization via barbershop DLC; correct? If so, this is a good addition, much like the Mirror in the Black Emporium for DAI. Both free DLC at that....

[SnakeCode]

Yes, being able to change Geralt's hair, beard and clothes/armor are all customisation options. It may not be as in depth as some would like, as you're unable to change his gender, race or sexual orientation, but Geralt is customisable, to a degree.

[Hazegurl]

I'd have to disagree with the Inquisitor being poorly voiced. DA:I had quality voice acting. The flaws with the Inquisitor was that he or she has only the most bare bones of a backstory. The Inquisitor isn't exactly a blank slate, but he/she is the closest to it of any DA protagonist. It makes it harder to care about the character as much as say the Warden or Hawke, since there is never a point in the game where you feel like you know the character as well as prior protagonists. Obviously the Inquisitor was never going to get a playable Origin story like the Warden, but that isn't necessary to give a main character a well-established backstory. Commander Shepard is a good example of that.

I agree the IQ wasn't poorly voiced.  It's hard to even say who was better when every last one of them had the same tone to their voices.  If anything someone at BW had a stupid idea and ordered the VAs to sound nearly as neutral as possible.  That combined with not giving the IQ a personal story makes it hard to care for the guy.

[Torgette]

So one area that I wish TW3 spent more time with is the disease and pollution that a war (especially medieval style) brings on a landscape/population. Sure you see devastated villages and piles of corpses but... it doesn't really do anything besides add window dressing and setups for side quests. For one, the diseases of those rotting corpses should be wreaking havoc and the major cities should be absolute **** piles with rats and poor sanitation everywhere. The rivers too should be filthy instead of being so clear and pristine (almost drinkable!). I'm also surprised at the lack of landscape devastation, as much **** as the exalted plains gets it is pretty striking contrast from the southern green wooded areas to the deforested burned out husk of the battlefields and the burning of the corpses was somewhat fitting. One other thing i'm surprised at is the lack of care by the opposing armies to recover their dead or reinforce their positions, a unit might hang out in a crumbling castle and proceeds to... sit around instead of going out and getting their comrades. Also the locals would probably loot the bodies long before Geralt ever got there, ghosts be damned (and would setup more morally ambiguous quests like intervening a local military unit trying to butcher some locals for looting their friends' bodies).

 

So i'd like to see the next DA - if it portrays war - also portraying the disease and pollution of war among the populace, and for effect show the war itself but in short and devastating bursts (much like real war). Also the internal resource war as pre-modern armies didn't supply their own resources rather they took from the local areas as they went along (voluntarily or involuntarily). This would've made the Inquisition all the more dramatic as you're securing local resources for your armies under a holy banner, makes your position of power all the more gray.

[Han Shot First]

The Witcher 3 did a great job of showing the effects of war on Velen. You pass through many villages that have been outright destroyed by the opposing armies, or deserted by villagers who turned refugees. Geralt runs across the aftermath of atrocities committed by both armies, and in the inhabited villages you often run across examples of either the peasants being pressed into service by one army or another, and/or their livestock and horses being appropriated. All of that greatly added to the atmosphere of a war-torn province, and something that was missing from DA:I. Except for Wicked Hearts the Inquisitor largely felt uninvolved with the Orlesian civil war, and the one place where you can encounter camps from both opposing armies, is devastated more by the undead than anything done by the armies themselves.

 

If the next game is set during any similar war it could use similar touches.

[In Exile]

I agree the IQ wasn't poorly voiced. It's hard to even say who was better when every last one of them had the same tone to their voices. If anything someone at BW had a stupid idea and ordered the VAs to sound nearly as neutral as possible. That combined with not giving the IQ a personal story makes it hard to care for the guy.

They did that in ME as well for Shepard. Voice direction is a key complaint in these games.

Although this personal story business I don't get. They gave Hawke a personal story and everyone just said it was a bad one.

[Lady Artifice]

Although this personal story business I don't get. They gave Hawke a personal story and everyone just said it was a bad one.

 

I enjoyed most of Hawke's more personal story. I didn't particularly love the downer ending, but I don't feel the fiery hatred for it that a lot of people do. It was still a fairly crucial story arc. 

[Torgette]

The Witcher 3 did a great job of showing the effects of war on Velen. You pass through many villages that have been outright destroyed by the opposing armies, or deserted by villagers who turned refugees. Geralt runs across the aftermath of atrocities committed by both armies, and in the inhabited villages you often run across examples of either the peasants being pressed into service by one army or another, and/or their livestock and horses being appropriated. All of that greatly added to the atmosphere of a war-torn province, and something that was missing from DA:I. Except for Wicked Hearts the Inquisitor largely felt uninvolved with the Orlesian civil war, and the one place where you can encounter camps from both opposing armies, is devastated more by the undead than anything done by the armies themselves.

 

If the next game is set during any similar war it could use similar touches.

 

I agree about DAI, but I might as well post ideas for things bigger than what both games did too.

[Eternal Dust]

How can we knock points off TW3 for not having a CC when it was never even an option to begin with? That's two different ball games. Bioware games always has a CC, been like that since day one. Until CB2077, CDProjektRed has never done a CC. How is not being able to play your own character suddenly the worst thing ever? I can't customize Nathan Drake in Uncharted. I still love the game. I can't customize Daniel from Amnesia or Miles Upshur/Waylon Park from Amesia and Outlast. Those are still amazing games.

When did pre defined characters stop being a good thing?

 

You're comparing apples to oranges. On the one hand you have an expansive, open-world game filled with side quests, C&C, and some form of player interaction that directly affects the narrative. On the other hand, you have a bunch of linear games with a set beginning, middle and end. When one type of game requires more time and investment, it isn't that far-fetched to want a character you can better identify with--in this case, a character you can create. *inserts heated debate about the definition of a RPG* 

[Han Shot First]

I enjoyed most of Hawke's more personal story. I didn't particularly love the downer ending, but I don't feel the fiery hatred for it that a lot of people do. It was still a fairly crucial story arc. 

 

I think most of the hate directed at Hawke was just redirected disappointment in how the entire game turned out.

 

That, and Hawke nearly always failed at what he or she set out to do. Hawke fails to save a sibling and can spend much of the game trying to be diplomatic with the Qunari and rying to avoid conflict between mages and Templars, and both blow up in Hawke's face. On top of that there is quest chain where Hawke is trying desperately to stop a serial killer before that person can claim more victims, only to fail so hard that his or her own mother becomes one of the victims. I think people could accept the occasional setback, but since Hawke gets battered by failure more consistently than his/her successes it left people feeling frustrated.

[Saphiron123]

I agree the IQ wasn't poorly voiced.  It's hard to even say who was better when every last one of them had the same tone to their voices.  If anything someone at BW had a stupid idea and ordered the VAs to sound nearly as neutral as possible.  That combined with not giving the IQ a personal story makes it hard to care for the guy.

Yeah an "origins"style backstory for each race would have been a nice touch. It really made you want to replay origins. DAI doesn't have that, and since most side quests don't have companion dialogue different parties mean less for replayability too.

[Zatche]

The Witcher 3 did a great job of showing the effects of war on Velen. You pass through many villages that have been outright destroyed by the opposing armies, or deserted by villagers who turned refugees.

DAI does show some of this, particularly in the Hinterlands and the Exalted Plains. I think it had less effect on people, because it was less visually detailed, relied too much on found notes that most players probably don't read, and overall felt less immersive and more static and sandbox-y.

[RINNZ]

You're comparing apples to oranges. On the one hand you have an expansive, open-world game filled with side quests, C&C, and some form of player interaction that directly affects the narrative. On the other hand, you have a bunch of linear games with a set beginning, middle and end. When one type of game requires more time and investment, it isn't that far-fetched to want a character you can better identify with--in this case, a character you can create. *inserts heated debate about the definition of a RPG*

Alright, i guess i did use two different genres.
But still, most people speak very low of pre set protags in this thread. I wanna know why. Does it bother someone that much that you won't even pick up the game? That's, IMO, stupid. Like i stated before, not every game needs to have a CC.

[Han Shot First]

DAI does show some of this, particularly in the Hinterlands and the Exalted Plains. I think it had less effect on people, because it was less visually detailed, relied too much on found notes that most players probably don't read, and overall felt less immersive and more static and sandbox-y.

 

I do agree with that. DA:I did have some of that, but where it appeared the presentation more often than not was less visual.

[Saphiron123]

DAI does show some of this, particularly in the Hinterlands and the Exalted Plains. I think it had less effect on people, because it was less visually detailed, relied too much on found notes that most players probably don't read, and overall felt less immersive and more static and sandbox-y.

Nah, DAI does an awful job of it. Static and sandboxy is exactly that, but aside form some burning buildings we never see the impact of the war. It's a forest simulator.

[Nefla]

That's a strong argument for a silent protagonist.

I wish more (not all) companies would use them, even Fallout 4 will have a voiced PC which makes me very nervous. I would rather have a set character with some level of customization and guidance like Geralt or Shepard so they can have a stronger backstory, tie to the narrative, and relationships OR a blank slate character with a ton of options like Courier Six. One or the other, not a watered down mix of both.