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[Riven326]

Inquisition outsold Origins.

 

No, that's merely the first thing that came to mind. The days of silent protagonists in AAA games seems to be ending. Even Bethesda apparently is at least looking into the protagonist in Fallout 4 being voiced. 

Inquisition was on more platforms and had a greater marketing campaign. It's not surprising.

 

Okay, so, all you have to say is that a game like Origins being released today would not be as successful as it had been five years ago because it doesn't include a voice for the PC. Keep in mind that Dragon Age 2 contradicts your rather weak argument here.

[Riven326]

Voiced protagonists, but if done on smaller scale there is still a market for hardcore cRPG's, Pillars of eternity sold like 220k copies on steam alone (not including physical edition, platforms like GoG etc) a week after release.

Indeed, and there is already an expansion on the way. Dragon Age 2 wasn't even considered successful enough for Bioware to go forward with it's expansion plans with that game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Inquisition was on more platforms and had a greater marketing campaign. It's not surprising.

Doesn't matter. You saying Origins is the best selling Bioware game is factually wrong. It isn't even the best selling Dragon Age game. 

 

Okay, so, all you have to say is that a game like Origins being released today would not be as successful as it had been five years ago because it doesn't include a voice for the PC. Keep in mind that Dragon Age 2 contradicts your rather weak argument here.

No, I can keep going but tend to go one point at a time. When people do multiple points at the same time, the conversation tends to get tangled and confused between the points. 

 

Dragon Age 2 was the result of EA trying to get Bioware to pump games out at an equal rate as their other developers. Seeing how long Dragon Age: Inquisition and especially the next Mass Effect game have had for their developments, the lesson was learned. And DA2 was not disliked for its protagonist having a voice. Hawke is one of the few things more or less universally liked about DA2. 

[Riven326]

Doesn't matter. You saying Origins is the best selling Bioware game is factually wrong. It isn't even the best selling Dragon Age game. 

 

No, I can keep going but tend to go one point at a time. When people do multiple points at the same time, the conversation tends to get tangled and confused between the points. 

 

Dragon Age 2 was the result of EA trying to get Bioware to pump games out at an equal rate as their other developers. Seeing how long Dragon Age: Inquisition and especially the next Mass Effect game have had for their developments, the lesson was learned. And DA2 was not disliked for its protagonist having a voice. Hawke is one of the few things more or less universally liked about DA2. 

I said it was the best selling Bioware game at the time, which proved that CRPG's weren't dead and that Bioware could produce those kinds of games and still have them be successful, even on consoles.

 

Again I ask, do you have anything else to add other than an increase in demand for a voiced PC in the past five year?

[midnight tea]

 

What's changed since then that is detrimental to the success of a game like Origins releasing today?

 

Voiced PCs already been mentioned, focus on open-world/sandbox games thanks to Skyrim's 2011 success, focus on multiplayer, micro-transactions, Kickstarter and the like (changed the landscape significantly), relevance of phone apps - and the fact that number of games developed grows exponentially every year while attention spam of each gamer is NOT getting any longer....

 

Really, quite a lot things have changed - not all these things may seem relevant, but yet they impact more than just game developers.

 

Also... comparing success of Pillars Of Eternity to DA is comparing apples to oranges.

[Morroian]

This is the problem. Bioware is trying to make two games at the same time for two different groups of people who enjoy vastly different play styles. The toruble you run into with this approach is that both styles of play often feel underdeveloped and unsatisfying compared to the other games on the market that specialize in one or the other. I often compare modern Bioware's approach to making games by using a food analogy. If you go to a restaurant that has a little bit of everything to choose from on the menu and order a steak, odds are the steak will be good but not great. If however you order from a place that specializes in steaks, you will get something much greater in return.

 

Yet they arguably came within a whisker of satisfying both with DA2. The issues with the tactical side of that game related to the encounter design (including overused wave combat)  and the lack of isometric view. Both of which could have been fixed with more dev time.

 

 

Inquisition outsold Origins.

 

Doesn't matter. You saying Origins is the best selling Bioware game is factually wrong. It isn't even the best selling Dragon Age game. 

 

AFAIK there is no evidence DAI has outsold Origins in terms of total sales yet, let alone ME2 and Me3. The most we get is it was the most successful launch in BWs history. 

[TheOgre]

I said it was the best selling Bioware game at the time, which proved that CRPG's weren't dead and that Bioware could produce those kinds of games and still have them be successful, even on consoles.

 

Played origins on the console first. I didn't use the spirit/arcane warrior. ACTUALLY used magic that wasn't broken. Tactics in that game were spot on. Despite being on a console I felt I had really good control over the AI in my party to a degree where I thought I could actually sit back and watch in tactical camera.

 

Found out that it was even better on PC. 

 

DAI made a bold claim that it would be a game for pc players. Ho boy, their UI was a tragic mess. Could tell immediately that controller would be the way to go for the game. Shame on me for falling for salesman gimmicks.

[Riven326]

 

 

 

Voiced PCs already been mentioned, focus on open-world/sandbox games thanks to Skyrim's 2011 success, focus on multiplayer, micro-transactions, Kickstarter and the like (changed the landscape significantly), relevance of phone apps - and the fact that number of games developed grows exponentially every year while attention spam of each gamer is NOT getting any longer....

 

Really, quite a lot things have changed - not all these things may seem relevant, but yet they impact more than just game developers.

 

Also... comparing success of Pillars Of Eternity to DA is comparing apples to oranges.

 

Most of those things aren't relevant at all and would not get in the way of game's success one way or the other. I mean, come on, phone apps? Yeah, that really helped boost sales for AC Unity.

[midnight tea]

Most of those things aren't relevant at all and would not get in the way of game's success one way or the other. I mean, come on, phone apps? Yeah, that really helped boost sales for AC Unity.

 

 

Lol, of course they do - why do you think even Witcher with its 4 million sold copies in last 2 weeks has its own app? Quite a few of them in fact! Released by CDPR itself.

 

DAI has its own as well.

[The Elder King]

I recall that a reason for the changes between DAO and DA2 was because they didn't expect DAO to be this successful.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

AFAIK there is no evidence DAI has outsold Origins in terms of total sales yet, let alone ME2 and Me3. The most we get is it was the most successful launch in BWs history. 

I never mentioned ME2 or ME3. Mass Effect has been their best selling franchise, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. 

[Riven326]

Lol, of course they do - why do you think even Witcher with its 4 million sold copies in last 2 weeks has its own app? Quite a few of them in fact! Released by CDPR itself.

Nonsense. It's just superfluous junk these devs like to use in an attempt to add more value to the game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@Riven326: So really there is nothing anyone can say that can convince you, huh? I mean, you are handwaving away everything, even when they are supported by data. 

[TheOgre]

@Riven326: So really there is nothing anyone can say that can convince you, huh? I mean, you are handwaving away everything, even when they are supported by data. 

 

That's just it, a lot of people have that tendency. I'd observe that from the other side of the fence too.

[rashie]

Also... comparing success of Pillars Of Eternity to DA is comparing apples to oranges.

 

Of course it is.

 

That is why I specifically worded it with "at a smaller scale" instead of just using it as an example. Smaller scale naturally excludes AAA productions.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's just it, a lot of people have that tendency. I'd observe that from the other side of the fence too.

I don't disagree with you. I'm just asking so I know whether or not I should continue being a part of this conversation. 

[midnight tea]

Nonsense. It's just superfluous junk these devs like to use in an attempt to add more value to the game.

 

So you recognize that there IS a value, huh?

Considering that everybody and their dog now owe a smartphone, they'd be silly not to recognize where they can effectively advertise the game. And these apps are downloaded in spades - Google store itself has almost 40k downloads in 2 weeks.

[Riven326]

@Riven326: So really there is nothing anyone can say that can convince you, huh? I mean, you are handwaving away everything, even when they are supported by data. 

Where is the data that shows 4 million copies were sold in large part to the inclusion of a phone app? Are you serious? All you and others have suggested so far is the voiced PC and everything going open world. I'm ignoring the phone app suggestion because it's ridiculous. I don't think anything that has been suggested thus far would be enough to doom a game like Origins in today's market.

 

So you recognize that there IS a value, huh?

Considering that everybody and their dog now owe a smartphone, they'd be silly not to recognize where they can effectively advertise the game. And these apps are downloaded in spades - Google store itself has almost 40k downloads in 2 weeks.

No. I recognize that they think it adds value.

[rashie]

Correlation doesn't imply causation, something that is important to remember. The inclusion of a phone app or not isn't a dealbreaker for very many.

[Torgette]

Origins was released in November 2009. It was soon after the best selling Bioware game to date. But apparently some people still believe that no one wants these kinds of games.

 

Never said nobody wants them, just said they typically can't hold up as flagship franchises regardless of whether we're talking about wrpg's or jrpg's. Also pretty sure ME2 and ME3 blew out DAO's numbers, IIRC. Also the Origins obsession needs to stop, that game was not the citizen kane that people like to pretend it was. Then we're sitting here talking about wanting nothing about the series to evolve or change - meanwhile CDPR evolves and changes The Witcher drastically between each game and blows Bioware out. It's more like Bioware rushed DA2, then they bit off more than they could chew with DAI, and now people are afraid of change altogether.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Where is the data that shows 4 million copies were sold in large part to the inclusion of a phone app? Are you serious? All you and others have suggested so far is the voiced PC and everything going open world. I'm ignoring the phone app suggestion because it's ridiculous. I don't think anything that has been suggested thus far would be enough to doom a game like Origins in today's market.

Who ever said the lack of those things would doom it? You asked what would be detrimental to the success of a game like Origins, and those things would be detrimental.

If you offered two games that were identical and one had the features like open world, voiced PC, multiplayer, and/or etc and the other one did not, the one lacking those things would not sell as well in today's market. They'd still sell, but not as well. 

[Riven326]

Who ever said the lack of those things would doom it? You asked what would be detrimental to the success of a game like Origins, and those things would be detrimental.

If you offered two games that were identical and one had the features like open world, voiced PC, multiplayer, and/or etc and the other one did not, the one lacking those things would not sell as well in today's market. They'd still sell, but not as well. 

I disagree. There is no evidence to support the idea that a game's sales would be impacted by the lack of certain features in today's market or that the market has changed so much for that to be the case. You have provided nothing to back up these claims to suggest that what you're saying is even a possible outcome in this scenario.

[TheOgre]

Ehh.. While I personally don't like the open world concept thanks to DAI so much anymore, I could kind of see Hanako's point. A lot of people are chasing that design now at the same time, it's really hard to say whether it would set a franchise apart if fewer went for that model and went for more meaningful designed maps, denser maps.