15896 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

Proof?

The way s/he put it is a little harsh but you don't need proof to see the point because that's been clear for BioWare recently. They are too worried about trying to please everyone and their mother, which while laudable, evidently comes at a cost.

[TheOgre]

The way s/he put it is a little harsh but you don't need proof to see the point because that's been clear for BioWare recently. They are too worried about trying to please everyone and their mother, which while laudable, evidently comes at a cost.

This, prior to your post however I butchered the quote.. I can actually prove this part here being somewhat true to an extent. They were so afraid of it coming off as something that would offend people that he removed the scene. Fishing for it in my bookmarks.

 

" i mean there was that quest in inquisition champions of the just, an envy demon posing as Leliana that attempted to seduce the inquisitor was removed because it was "sexual violation of leliana by proxy..." actually sounds like what a envy/lust DEMON would do"

 

http://www.reddit.co...stions_asexual/

 

 

The relevant piece of information here..

 

Spoiler

A while back you talked about how there was a scenario in the game that came off as ‘Rape-like’ and needed to be rewritten, I was just curious and wanted to know how it panned out differently and how you made it better for all your fans.

"The post in question was this one, where I mentioned a peer review of a plot with a situation that “could easily be interpreted as a form of rape”. During the review, the female members of the peer group mentioned how uncomfortable it made them feel…and because that wasn’t the writer’s intention, he ended up changing it.

Some people took that to mean the writer had actually put a rape into the story, and just didn’t realize it until the female writers pointed it out—which wasn’t the case at all, but since I couldn’t go into detail of the specifics, there wasn’t really any way to clarify.

But Dragon Age: Inquisition is out now, so I’ll clarify. For those wishing to avoid spoilers, this is the point at which you bow out.

Still here? Okay then.

The plot in question was “Champions of the Just”, the one you get if you go to Therinfal Redoubt after the templars and the Lord Seeker. You’ll recall there is a section where Envy has taken the form of Leliana, and is poking and prodding at the Inquisitor’s psyche in order to determine what makes him/her tick.

If I recall correctly, this early version of the plot had it so that the player wasn’t aware they were inside their head. The fight with the Lord Seeker was quickly ended, the templars wrapped up and the player heads back to Haven…almost too easily. Haven is too quiet, and Leliana is there asking odd questions and testing the player’s responses.

One of these things had Envy-Leliana attempting to seduce you. It was creepy and weird, and one of the places where the player was allowed to go, “Woah! This definitely isn’t right!” But the player also had the opportunity to accept.

There were going to be severe consequences for accepting, but regardless of that the thing that was pointed out was how the creepiness of the situation went beyond the demon-seduction itself and more how it seemed to be a sexual violation of Leliana by-proxy. Never mind that it was Envy initiating it, you thought (or seemingly thought) you were sleeping with Leliana, and it made for uncomfortable follow-up trying to imagine whether that was something we could just let slide and/or whether it should be something you could address with the real Leliana…or whether it should be allowed at all.

The circumstances could have been changed, perhaps, and while the peer group discussed it, the fact remained that it wasn’t an element the writer wanted to introduce—it was supposed to be about Envy and its creepy probing only, so he elected to take it out (and, ultimately, the entire set-up of that part of the plot changed anyhow).

I normally wouldn’t discuss an early form of a plot (all of them went through similar revisions on a constant basis), or bring up a plot point which got dropped (which happens a lot), except that in this specific case it felt telling that none of us guys really thought much beyond the author’s intention, and the introduction of an alternate interpretation (gender-based, or at least it seemed such) proved to be an incredibly valuable discussion point that we might have missed if the dynamics on the team had been different…which made me think how much of it might get missed elsewhere. Thus I believed it worth mentioning."

[correctamundo]

But according to Gaider it wasn't for fear of offending it was cut...

 

"...the fact remained that it wasn’t an element the writer wanted to introduce—it was supposed to be about Envy and its creepy probing only, so he elected to take it out (and, ultimately, the entire set-up of that part of the plot changed anyhow). I normally wouldn’t discuss an early form of a plot (all of them went through similar revisions on a constant basis), or bring up a plot point which got dropped (which happens a lot), except that in this specific case it felt telling that none of us guys really thought much beyond the author’s intention,..."

[Tonio545]

Proof?

 

http://www.reddit.co...stions_asexual/

 

Its from here. Fear of offending people isnt how you make a mature game, and you especially keep your personal opinions out of it its not real life.

 

But according to Gaider it wasn't for fear of offending it was cut...

 

 

the introduction of an alternate interpretation (gender-based, or at least it seemed such) proved to be an incredibly valuable discussion point that we might have missed if the dynamics on the team had been different…

 

If you read into the lines here he practically admits that it was changed because female writers were upset about lelianias " violation by proxy". Element the "writer" didnt intend to introduce indeed.

[TheOgre]

"Some people took that to mean the writer had actually put a rape into the story, and just didn’t realize it until the female writers pointed it out—which wasn’t the case at all, but since I couldn’t go into detail of the specifics, there wasn’t really any way to clarify."

[Tonio545]

God forbid someone puts mature themes into a story, better to close your eyes remove it, and pretend it never happens. I stand by it, unfortunately, Bioware will never again be able to write a story with the atmosphere of witcher.

[TheOgre]

It came off as rather quick to dismiss as he was afraid if they, the writers misunderstood him how many others could make that same assumption?

[SwobyJ]

Rape in a story? Next they'll have murder, and stealing!

[Elhanan]

Rape in a story? Next they'll have murder, and stealing!

Already included:

http://dragonage.wik...age-Templar_War

[TheOgre]

Already included:

http://dragonage.wik...age-Templar_War

They used codexes to convey a lot of the controversial topics, racism, homophobia, and that as well.

[Elhanan]

They used codexes to convey a lot of the controversial topics, racism, homophobia, and that as well.

And notes which do not appear in the Codex entries, I believe. I became more of a fan of such entries from DA2 and Skyrim; can pass along quite a bit of info, emotion, as well as add another layer of depth, IMO.

[TheOgre]

It's not entirely a bad way to tell a story imo it works well for those that love reading. I'm pretty impatient so I have to slow down in my next play through.

Also I agree with the skyrim style of books and what not.

[Elhanan]

It's not entirely a bad way to tell a story imo it works well for those that love reading. I'm pretty impatient so I have to slow down in my next play through.

Sim situation here; do not read much at all anymore, so I have to concentrate a bit more for these nuggets. This is another part of therapy, I guess; instead of reflexes, I re-train my mental processes. And as some here can attest, still working on it....

[panzerwzh]

A pretty good analysis of difference in the world setting and game experience between TW1,2 and DA2 and DAI.

 

He nails it.

 

[TheOgre]

I was going to timestamp and err translate the other video, I'll do it when I'm awake I promise hah.

[Torgette]

Bioware are too big to ever create a game like witcher again, held back by red tape and trying to please everyone and their dog. The reason why Witcher's atmosphere is so brilliant is its not just black and white, it actually shows you war, rape torture and racism instead of telling you about it. You sympathise with the characters and the shitty lifes villagers lead. You would never have a questline with the baron in a modern dragon age game, i mean there was that quest in inquisition champions of the just, an envy demon posing as Leliana that attempted to seduce the inquisitor was removed because it was "sexual violation of leliana by proxy..." actually sounds like what a envy/lust DEMON would do. Instead of thinking about awesome quests to write in a GAME the writers are constantly worried about how not to insult that group or how to please this group, political correctness gone mad. I dont want that in what is supposed to be a mature video game.

The only problem with the Baron quest is that it's very easy to not care about anybody involved or feel vindicated by even getting involved in the first place, it's sort of shock for shock's sake at times (imo). I do think they missed opportunities with DAI with regards to the demons though, there's a lack of supernatural disgust in the game.

[SwobyJ]

The only problem with the Baron quest is that it's very easy to not care about anybody involved or feel vindicated by even getting involved in the first place, it's sort of shock for shock's sake at times (imo). I do think they missed opportunities with DAI with regards to the demons though, there's a lack of supernatural disgust in the game.

 

Part of me feels this intentional. For all the shock of demons rampaging everywhere:

1)They're being dispatched easier than ever.

2)They're frenzied, and it seems like they're not 'in control' of themselves as previous demons would have been.

3)They're part of some larger metaphysical/magical process happening, not singularly preying on mortals (though they're technically doing this too).

4)We have stories and information that somewhat lessens the feeling of immediate threat from 'demons'. Talk to Cole and Solas and see their places in the story and the words in their lines.

 

Demons may be made into a major enemy faction, but that is specifically more like 'Demons', not 'facing a bad demon after another bad demon, because demons are 100% evil'. I'd say that individually, demons are 'neutered' but still made into a threat due to their seeming (greeen) connection to the Nightmare. But we can get a growing feeling that its not entirely their fault for being what they are, and that there are even potential (if super difficult) ways out of this mess (see: Solas' possible plans, Cole's nature, other more abstract character story messages).

 

So what I mean is that I think Bioware wanted players to feel immediate shock, horror, fear, concern, etc about demons in DAI, but not necessarily a lasting disgust. To feel, a *little* more, at *many* times, that demons are not necessarily so absolutely dangerous and so absolutely evil. Again, majorly bad and harmful enemies, but a little opening - 'breach' if you will - in the narrative to have us understand they could be more beyond our initial encounters and conflicts with them. Having them be VERY OFTEN disgusting in DAI could have defeated that possible purpose.

 

This might be part of the reasoning to not (well basically not) have desire demons - as the demons most (in theme) oriented around messing with your head, it could make demons be more outright evil in DAI than maybe intended. I think Bioware may be wanting us to occasionally wonder if this whole situation with demons could, maybe, be more than DAO's default and DA2's conflict.

 

This doesn't mean this approach is perfect or done perfectly. I'm just airing out some thoughts on the general matter.

[Tonio545]

The only problem with the Baron quest is that it's very easy to not care about anybody involved or feel vindicated by even getting involved in the first place, it's sort of shock for shock's sake at times (imo). I do think they missed opportunities with DAI with regards to the demons though, there's a lack of supernatural disgust in the game.

 

 

Spoiler

He epitomised why i like the witcher world, he is certainly not a good man. He was a violent, drunken, wifebeating animal who had been ravaged by war, leading a gang of murderers and thieves. Yet was also a kind bear of a man who would move mountains to protect his family even when they hated, cheated on and betrayed him. He is human, its realistic. I felt very much involved throughout it all though of course it isn't going to affect everyone the same way. Did you just not like his character?

 

I dont know what you mean by vindicated in this context, your choices mattering? Guess its perspective, same outcome yet story told different. I certainly didn't expect by freeing a bunch of orphans a village would be massacred his wife would die and i would find him rotting from a rope outside his castle. Knew i was in love with the game at this point, though if was more him going to far as to kill himself, you just dont expect it. Wouldn't have liked it as much if the opposite happened

[midnight tea]

Part of me feels this intentional. For all the shock of demons rampaging everywhere:

1)They're being dispatched easier than ever.

2)They're frenzied, and it seems like they're not 'in control' of themselves as previous demons would have been.

3)They're part of some larger metaphysical/magical process happening, not singularly preying on mortals (though they're technically doing this too).

4)We have stories and information that somewhat lessens the feeling of immediate threat from 'demons'. Talk to Cole and Solas and see their places in the story and the words in their lines.

 

Demons may be made into a major enemy faction, but that is specifically more like 'Demons', not 'facing a bad demon after another bad demon, because demons are 100% evil'. I'd say that individually, demons are 'neutered' but still made into a threat due to their seeming (greeen) connection to the Nightmare. But we can get a growing feeling that its not entirely their fault for being what they are, and that there are even potential (if super difficult) ways out of this mess (see: Solas' possible plans, Cole's nature, other more abstract character story messages).

 

So what I mean is that I think Bioware wanted players to feel immediate shock, horror, fear, concern, etc about demons in DAI, but not necessarily a lasting disgust. To feel, a *little* more, at *many* times, that demons are not necessarily so absolutely dangerous and so absolutely evil. Again, majorly bad and harmful enemies, but a little opening - 'breach' if you will - in the narrative to have us understand they could be more beyond our initial encounters and conflicts with them. Having them be VERY OFTEN disgusting in DAI could have defeated that possible purpose.

 

This might be part of the reasoning to not (well basically not) have desire demons - as the demons most (in theme) oriented around messing with your head, it could make demons be more outright evil in DAI than maybe intended. I think Bioware may be wanting us to occasionally wonder if this whole situation with demons could, maybe, be more than DAO's default and DA2's conflict.

 

This doesn't mean this approach is perfect or done perfectly. I'm just airing out some thoughts on the general matter.

 

 

True, we can always discuss whether the approach was always 'perfect', but the fact that they make it such a large focus of the story is a big plus for me - I like that demons/spirits are shown to be gray, while previous 'heroic' factions are shown stooping to basically becoming badguy's unwitting lackeys or how many people or organizations hiding behind big, 'noble' words or began as righteous can devolve into basically yet another problem for Thedas... How is that not a "mature theme" exactly? Just because a story may not have as many "shocking" moments doesn't make the story any less mature.

[KBomb]

Spoiler

He epitomised why i like the witcher world, he is certainly not a good man. He was a violent, drunken, wifebeating animal who had been ravaged by war, leading a gang of murderers and thieves. Yet was also a kind bear of a man who would move mountains to protect his family even when they hated, cheated on and betrayed him. He is human, its realistic. I felt very much involved throughout it all though of course it isn't going to affect everyone the same way. Did you just not like his character?

I dont know what you mean by vindicated in this context, your choices mattering? Guess its perspective, same outcome yet story told different. I certainly didn't expect by freeing a bunch of orphans a village would be massacred his wife would die and i would find him rotting from a rope outside his castle. Knew i was in love with the game at this point, though if was more him going to far as to kill himself, you just dont expect it. Wouldn't have liked it as much if the opposite happened

The Baron quest was one of my favorites. I felt very involved in the story.

Spoiler

It's odd that everyone hates solely on the baron. I have heard so much sympathy for Anna and she was the initial abuser. She was just as psychotic and abusive and mean as he was, if not more because she involved her daughter in that mess. She hid all the abuse she lashed out, yet she made her privy to the abuse she received. It was a way to alienate her daughter from her father because she knew they were very close at one time. Anna knew no physical blow would hurt as much as the Baron losing his beloved daughter.

The whole affair was sad, shameful and unfortunate. Both the Baron and his wife deserved each other. They both were repulsive, but that's what was so great about the mission. No one was a winner, no one was a hero. No one came out shining in the end. Yet, it was intriguing, emotional and had a lasting effect long after the mission was done. It was a long and intricate quest and well written and deep. 10/10

[AmberDragon]

Spoiler

He epitomised why i like the witcher world, he is certainly not a good man. He was a violent, drunken, wifebeating animal who had been ravaged by war, leading a gang of murderers and thieves. Yet was also a kind bear of a man who would move mountains to protect his family even when they hated, cheated on and betrayed him. He is human, its realistic. I felt very much involved throughout it all though of course it isn't going to affect everyone the same way. Did you just not like his character?

 

I dont know what you mean by vindicated in this context, your choices mattering? Guess its perspective, same outcome yet story told different. I certainly didn't expect by freeing a bunch of orphans a village would be massacred his wife would die and i would find him rotting from a rope outside his castle. Knew i was in love with the game at this point, though if was more him going to far as to kill himself, you just dont expect it. Wouldn't have liked it as much if the opposite happened

Just in case you didn't know

Spoiler

The baron can survive if you kill the tree spirit, he then takes his wife to the Blue Mountains to seek a cure for the madness caused by the crones etc...

 

As KBomb said it's a sad dysfunctional family situation all round, his wife isn't blameless and he is a victim of her abuse as well, psychological abuse can be as bad as physical abuse.

[Torgette]

Spoiler

He epitomised why i like the witcher world, he is certainly not a good man. He was a violent, drunken, wifebeating animal who had been ravaged by war, leading a gang of murderers and thieves. Yet was also a kind bear of a man who would move mountains to protect his family even when they hated, cheated on and betrayed him. He is human, its realistic. I felt very much involved throughout it all though of course it isn't going to affect everyone the same way. Did you just not like his character?

 

I dont know what you mean by vindicated in this context, your choices mattering? Guess its perspective, same outcome yet story told different. I certainly didn't expect by freeing a bunch of orphans a village would be massacred his wife would die and i would find him rotting from a rope outside his castle. Knew i was in love with the game at this point, though if was more him going to far as to kill himself, you just dont expect it. Wouldn't have liked it as much if the opposite happened

 

Spoiler

Hated his character, if there was a way to save his wife without helping him I would've jumped at the opportunity. Didn't like that when I did help him, he got drunk and hung himself anyways, he might've grieved momentarily but I never trusted he would ever change, certainly didn't trust that his wife would be safe around him.

 

Do agree he's a great example of what the Witcher series does well: impossibly gray situations instead of comically good or evil.

[KBomb]

Spoiler

Hated his character, if there was a way to save his wife without helping him I would've jumped at the opportunity. Didn't like that when I did help him, he got drunk and hung himself anyways, he might've grieved momentarily but I never trusted he would ever change, certainly didn't trust that his wife would be safe around him.

Do agree he's a great example of what the Witcher series does well: impossibly gray situations instead of comically good or evil.

Spoiler

She wouldn't have been safe because she was just as big of an idiot as he was. She would have continued to abuse him and he would have continued to abuse her. They were both sick. Why would you wish to help her and not him?

I agree about it being an impossibly gray. That's why I love it. I do grow tired of "good" and "bad".

[Torgette]

Spoiler

She wouldn't have been safe because she was just as big of an idiot as he was. She would have continued to abuse him and he would have continued to abuse her. They were both sick. Why would you wish to help her and not him?

I agree about it being an impossibly gray. That's why I love it. I do grow tired of "good" and "bad".

 

Spoiler

I think keeping them separate is helping them both in the end is more my point of view.

[KBomb]

Spoiler

I think keeping them separate is helping them both in the end is more my point of view.

Well...

Spoiler

I agree with you on that front. Those two were wretched human beings. I remember telling the baron they deserved each other. I felt sorry for them in the respect that they had to live with themselves.