Feedback... be more like The Witcher 3
#7176
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 08:44
DAI also deals with suffering, unless one discounts War, slavery, murder, rape, Demon possession, transmutation into fuel, etc.
Never had to see crying children to believe they were extant, but the events could explain why they are rarely seen.
- Hanako Ikezawa aime ceci
#7177
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 08:45
Agreed. Novigrad seems alive.
I say the Witcher 3 took it beyond bringing large cities to life. It brought the entire world to life.
I sometimes fire up DAI - mainly just walking around looking for RNG equipment diagrams but quickly loses interest as the world looks like a painting. A beautiful painting but still a painting. In TW3, the world is gorgeous, the weather and day night cycle gives life to even the trees and grass. A lone witcher, waiting for the next expansion, roaming the world looking for a contract - its all so fitting.
Also, the way Geralt dispatches enemies is really badarse
- AmberDragon, MoonDrummer et Tim van Beek aiment ceci
#7178
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 08:53
I'll try to sum up in a couple of sentences how TW3 feels in how they treat war and people... and how DA:I feels.
In short, I feel TW3 is telling a story to an adult and treats the gamer as such. There's suffering, pain, famine, rape, torment, etc.
Nobody is safe. Men, women, children.
DA:I is more disney-like. They don't show it and they don't feel the need to show it. There are no children in Thedas. Anyone notice that?
Othat than Morrigan/Warden son, I honestly can't think of a child in DA:I.
Meanwhile, children and cute and playful in TW3, in danger and in need of help, from wandering starving orphans to groups of them living in deserted huts, etc.
Again, I won't lie... I never considered DA:I a great game. Merely good. (Origins was a great game, for example)
DA:I is shiny and beautiful... but shallow and utterly fails in nearly all the important RP elements.
But it's only after giving Witcher a chance, did I really see just how lacking this game (DA:I) is.
I think DAI is a good game too. The bugs more than frustrated me though, but with all of it's faults, I like it. I had fun playing most of it and really love the cast of characters. Well.. perhaps not Sera. I can only take her in small doses.
I think the big thing is, I look at TW3 and I see what could have been done. It's like you've eaten vanilla ice cream all your life and thought it was the most delicious thing, until you tried it with chocolate syrup. You look at the plain ice cream and suddenly think, "Yeah, it's still sweet and good, but it's just vanilla" and you realize it's missing something.
- AmberDragon aime ceci
#7179
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 09:05
I say the Witcher 3 took it beyond bringing large cities to life. It brought the entire world to life.
I sometimes fire up DAI - mainly just walking around looking for RNG equipment diagrams but quickly loses interest as the world looks like a painting. A beautiful painting but still a painting. In TW3, the world is gorgeous, the weather and day night cycle gives life to even the trees and grass. A lone witcher, waiting for the next expansion, roaming the world looking for a contract - its all so fitting.
Also, the way Geralt dispatches enemies is really badarse
Geralt is way more badass that the Inquisitor, hands down. One of my favorite moments....
- AmberDragon et TheOgre aiment ceci
#7180
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 10:38
Again with the Disney tag, but I will happily accept it. Disney offers Night on Bald Mountain; DAI has demons galore. Disney offers sadness with Old Yeller and Bambi; DAI has stories like Cole. Etc.
DAI also deals with suffering, unless one discounts War, slavery, murder, rape, Demon possession, transmutation into fuel, etc.
Never had to see crying children to believe they were extant, but the events could explain why they are rarely seen.
No offense, but your response to most of the stuff obviously missing from the game is "but I don't need to see it to know they exist".
No fields or orchards or crop or farmers etc... No problem, you believe they exist.
No children in a war-torn lands, etc...No problem, you believe they exist.
That's a pretty weak explanation. Whole Haven ran away to Skyhold. Where are the kids? Why no kids in Val Royeaux square (again, the fact the the largest city in game is basically a square with 3 shops and 20 people is pretty lame).
The suffering in Dragon Age (post Origins) is never shown. You're told about it, or it's done in very unconvincing, politically-correct scenes.
(Leliana's imprisonment for a year comes to mind... she's wearing the same clothes, which is just lazy and unconvincing... Baroness La Vallete is half nude with her dress torn when imprisoned in TW2, Phillipa Eilhart has her eyes gouged out. etc... War, violence, torture, rape, etc... Are brutal, and when you try and be PG-16 about it and very politically correct, it comes off like you're filtering the game for children).
Now, I'm not saying every RPG has to go the Game of Thrones route. But if you want to offer a story about war, famine, violence, torture... And be adult about it, then either do it or don't. The half-assed stuff simply comes off weak.
...
Again, the best advice I can offer you is to just try Witcher 3 with an open mind.
If combat is bothering you, has no pause, it's too fast, whaetver.... Play on Easy. Honestly, even Normal is really easy.
Like I said, it completely blew me away. So much so, I went and purchased the books now and I'm reading them.
Everything in this game is top notch.
Graphics, gameplay, voice-acting, facial animation, music, atmosphere, story, pacing, quests, characters, level of detail, immersive, living, "real" world etc...
I love fantasy, I love RPGs. I'll try any that comes out with an open mind. But I want depth and believability and I want it to be immersive.
Origins, Skyrim and Dark Souls were the 3 great RPGs post-2000 IMO... And TW3 just topped them all, as far as I'm concerned.
it completely dwarfs DA:I. And more worryingly for someone who loves DA:Origins and still plays it to this very day, it dwarfs the direction DA games are going.
- Lawrence0294, nici2412, Xetykins et 1 autre aiment ceci
#7181
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 11:26
Truth be told, I sort of regret steering the conversation that way. I swear I'm not weird about brothels! I just thought what they did there in DAO and DA2 was really charming and funny.
It's good to hear that there are some lighter moments, though (I'm finding them pretty few and far between in TW2). And I've got to say I have very high hopes for the depiction of Geralt's relationship with Ciri. Everyone says it's nice. The few little bits that snuck through my spoiler armor make it sound nice.
On the subject of Brothels, I have no idea where they are and haven't bothered to look for them, at the very least if you're not interested they're very easy to avoid apparently.
#7182
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 11:26
Plus, the only people who can judge this are those who have played both the games. By that I mean not watching gameplay videos, but the playing the actual game. It is fruitless to argue with anyone who has played only one......so Corte and KBomb, don't waste your time.
On the subject of Brothels, I have no idea where they are and haven't bothered to look for them, at the very least if you're not interested they're very easy to avoid apparently.
#7183
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 11:30
The Hinterlands were plagued by rifts and demons, which affected some of the local wildlife, which is why there are no horses seen roaming the farms. And such infestations can also interfere with farming.
And when there is a War, and the lands are assaulted by a Magister Darkspawn and his minions, rebuilding in those locations may not be the best use of time and resources. Personally prefer the ruins rather than seeing an ongoing reconstruction during such events.
There are no horses outside of the Master stables because of the various problems; hence the side quests that must be done before one may get their steed out of the stable. Seem to recall rifts and demons in every area, as well as other wandering encounters. And perhaps those larders some describe explain the lack of steeds seen elsewhere; also the need for fresh meat.
Crops also could have been harvested to feed the needy, be it refugees or the various factions.
I said it before and I'll say it again. Those are headcanons. All headcanons. Meanwhile in TW3 you don't have to think "this is probably what happened" because it shows you. It can tell you, but in addition it also shows you most of the times. DAI only does the telling part (like refugees dying of cold and hunger, templars killing innocents, etc. etc. you never see any of that). The lack of children, pets (cats, dogs), crops, etc. were just a lapse from the design team, since at any time in the game (at least not that I remember of) you get an explanation why you never see those things, so there's no reason why we shouldn't have had them in the game. In DAO there were the darkspawn spreading their taint which actually infects people, animals and plants and yet you see all those things in that game that are missing in DAI.
- KBomb, Xetykins, rashie et 3 autres aiment ceci
#7184
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 11:34
The effects of war..famines,War, Rape, Slavery are there in DA:I true, but they are more profound in TW3. CDPR has handled them much better. The war vibe that one gets from TW3 is more realistic and dark than the one in DA:I. The depth and believability in TW3 tops DA:I.
Plus, the only people who can judge this are those who have played both the games. By that I mean not watching gameplay videos, but the playing the actual game. It is fruitless to argue with anyone who has played only one......so Corte and KBomb, don't waste your time.
My only problem with the war part in TW3 is the same problem I had with the war part in DAI - apart from the very brief opening cutscene with Yenn they don't show it happening, only the aftermath. One feedback suggestion I made for DAI was to show the war between templars and mages actually happening in full scale at some point even if just in cutscene. TW3 definitely does a better job on showing the aftermath though.
#7185
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 11:45
My only problem with the war part in TW3 is the same problem I had with the war part in DAI - apart from the very brief opening cutscene with Yenn they don't show it happening, only the aftermath. One feedback suggestion I made for DAI was to show the war between templars and mages actually happening in full scale at some point even if just in cutscene. TW3 definitely does a better job on showing the aftermath though.
Yes this is quite true. I was indeed referring to effects of war rather than the war itself. Sorry if you thought I meant the otherwise.
#7186
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 11:54
Plus, the only people who can judge this are those who have played both the games. By that I mean not watching gameplay videos, but the playing the actual game. It is fruitless to argue with anyone who has played only one......so Corte and KBomb, don't waste your time.
Completely agree. I have that person on my ignore list, but then I come here and see all his posts anyway because people reply to him and it's hard to continue to ignore them at some point. But in the end we're discussing with a person that never touched one of these games so they have no idea what they are talking about and obviously the other game is always going to be better in their eyes.
Anyway this thread needs something to lift up the mood so here:
This whole sequence crushes DAI's wicked grace scene so hard it's not even funny.
- AmberDragon aime ceci
#7187
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 11:56
My only problem with the war part in TW3 is the same problem I had with the war part in DAI - apart from the very brief opening cutscene with Yenn they don't show it happening, only the aftermath. One feedback suggestion I made for DAI was to show the war between templars and mages actually happening in full scale at some point even if just in cutscene. TW3 definitely does a better job on showing the aftermath though.
Well the Inquisitor is supposed to be in the middle of their war, while Geralt is not. His only concern in TW3 is finding Ciri even if theres war going on around him. So I understand why we only see the aftermath. And why cdpr did not focus on it. He's not actively involved on those war. In fact I dont think he cares who wins or loose.
- AmberDragon et hoechlbear aiment ceci
#7188
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 12:02
Geralt is way more badass that the Inquisitor, hands down. One of my favorite moments....
Spoiler
Actually, that section in the spoiler dont really many him more badass than the inquisitor.
IMO what made him more badass than the Inquisitor is when he beat the Champion of Champions in a fist fight. LOL, that quest made me laugh so hard. Oh, and best facial expression from all the NPCs including Geralt. We could use someone like him in this thread ![]()
https://youtu.be/z5iTR3H2UKs?t=7m19s
- AmberDragon aime ceci
#7189
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 12:41
Well the Inquisitor is supposed to be in the middle of their war, while Geralt is not. His only concern in TW3 is finding Ciri even if theres war going on around him. So I understand why we only see the aftermath. And why cdpr did not focus on it. He's not actively involved on those war. In fact I dont think he cares who wins or loose.
From a story perspective it makes sense I get that, but from a world perspective it would've been neat to ride up on some redanians blasting a fort full of nilfgaardians holding out and refusing to surrender, something Geralt has no reason to intervene in but just for effect.
#7190
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 12:54
From a story perspective it makes sense I get that, but from a world perspective it would've been neat to ride up on some redanians blasting a fort full of nilfgaardians holding out and refusing to surrender, something Geralt has no reason to intervene in but just for effect.
I think that TW2 was more of the "during", where TW3 was the "after".
I am always up for a battle scene, though. Wouldn't mind seeing a bit of fighting.
- AmberDragon aime ceci
#7191
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 01:06
Well the Inquisitor is supposed to be in the middle of their war, while Geralt is not. His only concern in TW3 is finding Ciri even if theres war going on around him. So I understand why we only see the aftermath. And why cdpr did not focus on it. He's not actively involved on those war. In fact I dont think he cares who wins or loose.
Geralt do care to some extent in the story but it isn't set in stone cause how the war turns out depends a lot on choices done by the player, both sides can win the conflict.
#7192
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 01:35
I say the Witcher 3 took it beyond bringing large cities to life. It brought the entire world to life.
I sometimes fire up DAI - mainly just walking around looking for RNG equipment diagrams but quickly loses interest as the world looks like a painting. A beautiful painting but still a painting. In TW3, the world is gorgeous, the weather and day night cycle gives life to even the trees and grass.
Yes, this is certainly one aspect a large majority should be able to agree upon rather fast. Just spend two hours, say, running around in W3 and compare that to two hours running around in DA:I. Doesn't really matter where.
DA:I areas look like still lifes from a theme park (a desert, a forest, the ice planet etc.), while the Valen map in W3 shows the world according to the premise: Starting with the Nilfgaardian army camp in the south, the war ravaged lands, the river that marks the end of the battlefield guarded by the Rodanian army, ample fields behind that and two large independent cities yet untouched by war, all feeling alive.
Just try it, no further discussion needed.
- AmberDragon et MoonDrummer aiment ceci
#7193
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 01:49
So true. That would have been nice to see.From a story perspective it makes sense I get that, but from a world perspective it would've been neat to ride up on some redanians blasting a fort full of nilfgaardians holding out and refusing to surrender, something Geralt has no reason to intervene in but just for effect.
Maybr. I havent finished the game yet though so I will probably change my opinion on that when I doGeralt do care to some extent in the story but it isn't set in stone cause how the war turns out depends a lot on choices done by the player, both sides can win the conflict.
#7194
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 01:59
No offense, but your response to most of the stuff obviously missing from the game is "but I don't need to see it to know they exist".
No fields or orchards or crop or farmers etc... No problem, you believe they exist.
No children in a war-torn lands, etc...No problem, you believe they exist.
That's a pretty weak explanation. Whole Haven ran away to Skyhold. Where are the kids? Why no kids in Val Royeaux square (again, the fact the the largest city in game is basically a square with 3 shops and 20 people is pretty lame).
The suffering in Dragon Age (post Origins) is never shown. You're told about it, or it's done in very unconvincing, politically-correct scenes.
(Leliana's imprisonment for a year comes to mind... she's wearing the same clothes, which is just lazy and unconvincing... Baroness La Vallete is half nude with her dress torn when imprisoned in TW2, Phillipa Eilhart has her eyes gouged out. etc... War, violence, torture, rape, etc... Are brutal, and when you try and be PG-16 about it and very politically correct, it comes off like you're filtering the game for children).
Now, I'm not saying every RPG has to go the Game of Thrones route. But if you want to offer a story about war, famine, violence, torture... And be adult about it, then either do it or don't. The half-assed stuff simply comes off weak.
...
Again, the best advice I can offer you is to just try Witcher 3 with an open mind.
If combat is bothering you, has no pause, it's too fast, whaetver.... Play on Easy. Honestly, even Normal is really easy.
Like I said, it completely blew me away. So much so, I went and purchased the books now and I'm reading them.
Everything in this game is top notch.
Graphics, gameplay, voice-acting, facial animation, music, atmosphere, story, pacing, quests, characters, level of detail, immersive, living, "real" world etc...
I love fantasy, I love RPGs. I'll try any that comes out with an open mind. But I want depth and believability and I want it to be immersive.
Origins, Skyrim and Dark Souls were the 3 great RPGs post-2000 IMO... And TW3 just topped them all, as far as I'm concerned.
it completely dwarfs DA:I. And more worryingly for someone who loves DA:Origins and still plays it to this very day, it dwarfs the direction DA games are going.
Most? Crops are shown as harvested, and there are some farmers in the fields; in the Exalted Plains they simply happen to be dead. And as previously mentioned, Templars and Mages (ie; factions) have been ransacking farms for food as well as the refugees; Cory's mortal troops are also pillaging areas.
I shall yield there are few children, but personally do not need them included. Ghouls tend to go out of their way to slay them if possible, then boast about it on the forums.
But as for all the other atrocities, something is included in DAI be it illustrated, demonstrated, or written. Leliana is a straw man example, as others have obviously fared worse than her. Others have been completely killed and consumed, and with Darkspawn, not always in that order. And I do not watch GoT either, but at least I do have a pause feature for it.
Have been enjoying Fantasy for nearly all my life , and FRPG's for forty yrs. But I prefer restraint and a mature approach to darker matters; DA has offered such. The Broodmother reveal in DAO is the best example in the series dealing with that content that I have seen; not required to see it reenacted by pixelated monstrosities. The journals and letters discovered in Frostflow Lighthouse in Skyrim makes this one of my favored quests. In DAI we also have methods telling stories that do not require the events themselves; no cut-scenes required.
#7195
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 02:06
Ghouls tend to go out of their way to slay them if possible, then boast about it on the forums.
I had no idea
knew how to access these forums.
- line_genrou et ambien aiment ceci
#7196
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 02:08
I said it before and I'll say it again. Those are headcanons. All headcanons. Meanwhile in TW3 you don't have to think "this is probably what happened" because it shows you. It can tell you, but in addition it also shows you most of the times. DAI only does the telling part (like refugees dying of cold and hunger, templars killing innocents, etc. etc. you never see any of that). The lack of children, pets (cats, dogs), crops, etc. were just a lapse from the design team, since at any time in the game (at least not that I remember of) you get an explanation why you never see those things, so there's no reason why we shouldn't have had them in the game. In DAO there were the darkspawn spreading their taint which actually infects people, animals and plants and yet you see all those things in that game that are missing in DAI.
No; the Inquisitor must find a solution to the region's possessed wolves, and establish Watch Towers for area defense before seeing one steed. The War and aftermath are shown, as well as Cory's assaults and established methods for population control. Etc.
Tis in the game; not simply pooh-poohed away by chanting head canon.
#7197
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 02:13
Yes, this is certainly one aspect a large majority should be able to agree upon rather fast. Just spend two hours, say, running around in W3 and compare that to two hours running around in DA:I. Doesn't really matter where.
DA:I areas look like still lifes from a theme park (a desert, a forest, the ice planet etc.), while the Valen map in W3 shows the world according to the premise: Starting with the Nilfgaardian army camp in the south, the war ravaged lands, the river that marks the end of the battlefield guarded by the Rodanian army, ample fields behind that and two large independent cities yet untouched by war, all feeling alive.
Just try it, no further discussion needed.
Can't; no Pause function. Prefer to stick with DAI.
#7198
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 02:27
I dont recall games that have more than 1 or 2 major cities. Usually it is a major city (or 2) and the rest being smaller cities, towns and villages. The reason I think is that large cities are expensive to make and even harder to make them lively so I dont think we should worry about getting "a whole bunch of overly large cities".
Fair enough I just don't want them to get the idea that they have to make it then. That gets boring quick running back and forth.
Edit not directed at you ashwind: That said why do people try to use disney like a ****** insult. Are you guys high? Disney? Disney? Disney varies from very light to very grim. Trying to say disney is kiddy is being very superficial and makes you look like a idiot at best and I really hate that argument. But at least it makes me know who's talking out their ass. There's that at least.
A lot of Disney's stuff is really messed up if you actually take a few seconds to think about it.
But I guess that's the problem. People can't be bothered to think for a few seconds.
And I played the witcher 3 and while it was good I actually went back to skyrim because I got tired of it. (It didn't help that I'm playing while thinking of the hype and I'm just like "Eh this is not worth all that hype....")
- Elhanan, Auztin et blahblahblah aiment ceci
#7199
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 02:37
None of the farmsteads looked like actual farmsteads. Completely void of crops and domesticated animals. Not one person even riding a horse.
The markets in Val Royaeux should have been heavily populated. Honestly, Hierarch Square alone had more life than the Summer Bizarre.
I would have really loved to see an alienage or just the slums of Val Royeaux. DAI had some nice environments, but they just seem so empty and bland.
Also would have been nice if in all of those ruins, after you closed the rifts, killed bandits, kill demons etc, if the refugees would have came back. There are just absolutely no signs that anyone has lived in those ruins recently. There isn't a chantry, a pub, a goods store or anything. Just the same old burning buildings. Such a wasted opportunity. The thing is: I knew it was bare, but it wasn't until I played TW3 and saw how amazing and alive it felt that I really saw the vast emptiness of space in DAI.
There’s a basic difference in how BioWare and CDPR design their worlds. CDPR always tried to go for something approximating the simulation of a ‘real world’, something that was believable and interesting by itself. BioWare always created mostly static cardboard backgrounds; the closest they ever got to creating a ‘world’ was with Baldur’s Gate I (I’m disregarding their foray into the MMO world with SWTOR here).
I don’t think we have to use the word ‘lazy’ here, it’s basically a difference in how the two studios approach the design of their ‘gameworlds’. Bio put in plenty of work in the creation of their zones and many new or overhauled art assets, but what they basically did was create a much larger and prettier cardboard background, rather than attempting a genuine ‘slice of living Thedas’.
There’s also the question of how much ‘MMO-DNA’ got into DA:I, due to the fact that a cancelled multiplayer project ‘folded into’ DA:I and influences from / experiences with SWTOR. Virtually all of the zones in DA:I have a stereotypical ‘thematic’ look and feel that they share with so-called ‘themepark MMO’s’ a la WoW and of course SWTOR.
I don’t think this thematic approach is best for a quasi-open world RPG. It sort of works with linear narrative RPG’s; even TW1 and TW2 had this to some extent, with ‘Countryside’, ‘City’, ‘Swamp’, ‘Creepy Forest’ etc. locations. If the locations fit the overall context there’s no problem whatsoever.
CDPR’s somewhat more ‘simulationist’ approach is perfectly compatible with ‘thematic’ zones, if applied within that zone. For instance, the Flotsam area was a ‘Creepy Forest zone’, but the town itself was a walled and garrisoned outpost inhabited by Temerian settlers and various ‘outsiders’ (some dwarves and elves), with a small fishing village inhabited by people of Kaedweni origin next to it. Flotsam town didn’t depend on farming but on outside supplies and a bit of trade, while the fishing village relied on fishing, hunting and I think a bit of gardening as well. The river was the settlement’s lifeline. The town itself owed its ‘raison d’etre’ to the fact that it was a physical expression of Temeria’s territorial claims in the region.
Likewise, the Outskirts in TW1 looked and felt precisely what the area was supposed to be: a rural area just outside Vizima’s city gates, with a small suburb next to the bridge to the city and a whole bunch of outlying farms, plus a fortified inn catering to travellers who didn’t quite make it to the safety of the city walls before nightfall.
You never, ever see such things in BioWare games. Even in Baldur’s Gate, you don’t have a proper countryside. Beregost is a self-contained town, Nashkel is a ‘mining town’ of a handful of houses and…erm…that’s pretty much it. While there are some farmers and an occasional cow, they are far and few between; there doesn’t seem to be an actual agricultural economy that could conceivably sustain the city of Baldur’s Gate.
After Baldur’s Gate…well, BioWare’s games became increasingly linear and the worlds tended to become smaller and more fragmented. DA:I is, I think, not the result of BioWare devs becoming lazy, but because a decent, fairly conventional and not particularly large BioWarian ‘Save-The-World story (with a twist)’ game – was smeared out over a series of large zones, together with a large amount of mediocre-to-okay-ish combat and Ubisoftian filler content. Effectively they did not so much change their approach, as glue two different games together.
One potential lesson here might be that BioWare needs to make a serious effort to shift from cardboard gameworlds and ‘isolated and fragmented’ thematic zones to actual ‘world simulation’, whether that is in the form of a big contiguous world a la Elder Scrolls and GTA or multiple zones that form believable ‘slices of living Thedas’ in their own right.
- Gileadan, panzerwzh, Xetykins et 2 autres aiment ceci
#7200
Posté 24 juillet 2015 - 02:52
Can't; no Pause function. Prefer to stick with DAI.
Fair enough. So it would seem that we very much disagree about the combat mechanics, but that wasn't my point. I might try to make that in another post coming up
, which I fully expect to be controversial. But that the game world in W3 is much more dynamic and alive than in DA:I is rather uncontroversial, I would say. You don't have to fight anything in W3 to find out, as Geralt can avoid all enemies while roaming the world, especially while riding his horse.





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