In next DA game, I would not be surprised to see transgender Tevinter mages equipped with sparkling magical grenade launcher marching with rainbow-tattooed Qunaris to fight for rights of same sex marriage.
So the title for the next DA game is DA: Equality ? 
And this is demonstrably untrue, though I'll grant that you do need to dig for it more this time around. The codex entries and war table outcomes are frequently anything but tame. There is some very troubling stuff in there.
Even in the past games, the darkest stuff was strictly inferred as opposed to flat out shown most of the time.
I will say this man, Emprise Du Lion gripped me. Seeing a few people lying on the ground perishing slowly to the red lyrium is what I liked.
The dying templar at the top of the castle.
But I noticed way more grim stuff in DAO and to some degree in DA2. Yet you are completely right about Codex's and Storyboard having a lot of nasty things in it!
Personal opinion time inc: The zoom in conversations are still a major turn off. I like to see the people I'm talking too up close. I am spoiled by the Witcher's conversation method. Yet they did this in DAO to some degree. I find it's a major step back in the way of connecting to someone you are taking on a mission from. I'd like to kneel down to listen to the dying woman's request to return her personal things to her lover as she slowly perishes to red lyrium tainting. Zoom in camera takes away from that a bit!
People being a general reference to the people on this forum I've seen post about DA:O being dark. I appreciate that you (and Xetykins) feel that DAO had other 'dark' content in terms of portrayals of poverty or social injustice. I personally wouldn't label that as 'dark' vs. DA:I being 'light' (or whatever the counter-term would be), because I see DA:O as more the default portrayal and DA:I moving away from it (largely because DA:I is all about people in power, and DA:O isn't).
Well, I didn't originally frame my argument as DAI being 'lighter' so much as it being 'tamer'. But I don't think it can be completely excused just because it deal with the higher strata of society. After all, so did the HN and DN origins, The Arl of Redcliffe, A Paragon of Her Kind, and The Landsmeet.
Still, I think it's really notable that when we're talking about DA:O's darkness, we're talking about origin stories. Your examples go to the CE and HR origins. Gwydden talks about the DC origin. But what about the game itself?
The origins are brilliant, IMO, but they're very much not the kind of writing DA:O then focuses on for the rest of the game. Honestly, I think they're the product of the fact that Bioware was completely free from writing their usual B-movie epic plots, much like how ME2's small vignette missions were good because they were bogged down by the B-movie main plot.
This is something that's an issue with DAO in general. The main plot is as bland and generic as it gets. Its saving grace are its subplots. Personally I felt A Paragon of Her Kind and The Landsmeet were better and more daring political plots than Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts. You had a larger, more questionable range of options in The Arl of Redcliffe, The Nature of the Beast, and The Urn of Sacred Ashes, although that can be partly excused by DAI placing you as a religious and political leader. Not a great move in retrospect, IMO.
And it's not just DAO. DAI was also tamer than DA2. Even though the Mage-Templar War hadn't even started yet, I found it a much more horrifying conflict in Act I and Act 3 of DA2. And Act 2 of DA2 was about the best the main plot of a Dragon Age game has ever gotten, and that's got all to do with the Qunari and nothing to do with Leandra.
Picking up a blood soaked teddy bear off a dead child whose dead mother and dead father were trying to protect in the Exalted Plains is not dark enough? What about picking the wedding ring up of a couple of scorched bodies in the Emprise du Lion is not dark enough? What about the soldier who is dying and gives the Inquisitor a ring to return to Commander Jehan? Or the last words of the woman dying from red lyrium poisoning where she asks the Inquisitor to place a letter for her beloved? What about the confession letter in the quest Caged Confession where Louis killed the brother of his love Linette?
The Envy demon slitting Cullen's throat even if it is the fade not dark enough? Or are gamers looking for Bioware to show an actually gang rape on screen? What is "dark" suppose to mean?
How many horrors of war need to be shown? Bodies being thrown into pits to raise them as the undead is not dark enough? The only way to stop it is to burn the bodies.
How far should a game made for entertainment go?
Some gamers are complaining about the SJW agenda but want to see the horrors of war depicted somewhat realistically. Both exist realistically. So I believe if one can be shown so can the other.
Well there's slaughtering the dalish clans, letting that mage sacrifice the elves "including" your father for power. Murder knife brother Geneteve in the sacred ashes quest.. and again connor. Those are just on the top of my head.People being a general reference to the people on this forum I've seen post about DA:O being dark. I appreciate that you (and Xetykins) feel that DAO had other 'dark' content in terms of portrayals of poverty or social injustice. I personally wouldn't label that as 'dark' vs. DA:I being 'light' (or whatever the counter-term would be), because I see DA:O as more the default portrayal and DA:I moving away from it (largely because DA:I is all about people in power, and DA:O isn't).
As I say above, DA:I portrays, ultimately, rich people. The Inquisition is rich and powerful - even at the start. You get NPCs more from the bottom rung of society like Sera, but we never see it.
Still, I think it's really notable that when we're talking about DA:O's darkness, we're talking about origin stories. Your examples go to the CE and HR origins. Gwydden talks about the DC origin. But what about the game itself?
The origins are brilliant, IMO, but they're very much not the kind of writing DA:O then focuses on for the rest of the game. Honestly, I think they're the product of the fact that Bioware was completely free from writing their usual B-movie epic plots, much like how ME2's small vignette missions were good because they were bogged down by the B-movie main plot.
Answer to all your questions for me is Origins.Or are gamers looking for Bioware to show an actually gang rape on screen?
How far should a game made for entertainment go?
Answer to all your questions for me is Origins.
And you are being over dramatic.
I don't think he's necessarily being over-dramatic. If you're shooting for spectacle, it's very, very easy (accidentally or not) for certain situations to not be treated with the gravity they deserve. I've come across one (and only one, so far) such scene in TW3. I found it sad, cheap, and exploitive, and over the line. I am not interested in elaborating further to prevent tangents, but I really doubt that anyone who's seen it can't guess which one I'm referring to.
Though I do agree that if there's a balance you can strike, DAO is a decently good one. I've said before, but I'm not a fan of spectacle for spectacle's sake, and the stuff that stays with me isn't necessarily always the stuff that they flat out show.
Neither am I. That's why I only mentioned DAObut I'm not a fan of spectacle for spectacle's sake.
Neither am I. That's why I only mentioned DAO
TW3 was spectacular yes, but the story behind the spectacle is what I found great. And yes the decaps are outrageously delicious. I want them back like DAO.
Well... I think we're referring to different senses of spectacle, here. And I'm also not talking about the decaps. Which are fine, as those things go.
Well... I think we're referring to different senses of spectacle, here. And I'm also not talking about the decaps. Which are fine, as those things go.
*snip*
S'why I always disliked the thought that dark content equals mature content because I've seen enough content containing shock value that, to me, proves that is not the case.
Maturity will always, to me, lie in how the content is handle. Something that is implied can be just as powerful as something that is shown depending on how it is handled.
Picking up a blood soaked teddy bear off a dead child whose dead mother and dead father were trying to protect in the Exalted Plains is not dark enough? What about picking the wedding ring up of a couple of scorched bodies in the Emprise du Lion is not dark enough? What about the soldier who is dying and gives the Inquisitor a ring to return to Commander Jehan? Or the last words of the woman dying from red lyrium poisoning where she asks the Inquisitor to place a letter for her beloved? What about the confession letter in the quest Caged Confession where Louis killed the brother of his love Linette?
The Envy demon slitting Cullen's throat even if it is the fade not dark enough? Or are gamers looking for Bioware to show an actually gang rape on screen? What is "dark" suppose to mean?
How many horrors of war need to be shown? Bodies being thrown into pits to raise them as the undead is not dark enough? The only way to stop it is to burn the bodies.
How far should a game made for entertainment go?
Some gamers are complaining about the SJW agenda but want to see the horrors of war depicted somewhat realistically. Both exist realistically. So I believe if one can be shown so can the other.
I don't think I was going for this kind of impression heh..
It's not that they lack the visual content. It's just that I feel they personally hid it behind text to avoid pissing off the wrong people.
That in itself is why I'm not jumping with praise for their tell not show approach.
As a player, I do not know their motivation for hiding the material behind text, I can only assume. That's the consequence of show not tell approach when previous installments have a much different approach to the controversial topics. For all I know, they could view slitting a throat more acceptable than seeing a victim of rape.
Soo is Origins is just a shock value? Cuz that's what we are talking about here.S'why I always disliked the thought that dark content equals mature content because I've seen enough content containing shock value that, to me, proves that is not the case.
Maturity will always, to me, lie in how the content is handle. Something that is implied can be just as powerful as something that is shown depending on how it is handled.
Oh i get what you mean by spectacle. Its tell and don't show.
Well... no. I'm not only recognizing the extreme end of each. I'm not saying that any amount of showing over telling is needless spectacle. There's a middle ground, and DAO (and DA2, there are good examples in there as well, it's just not as fresh in my mind) strikes it as well as anything else I can think of.
Much of the TW2 and 3 strike a good balance as well (although their narrative style is so much different than a game like Dragon Age: Any Of'Em that I think it just sort of lends itself naturally to a story more heavily weighted towards showing over telling).
Picking up a blood soaked teddy bear off a dead child whose dead mother and dead father were trying to protect in the Exalted Plains is not dark enough? What about picking the wedding ring up of a couple of scorched bodies in the Emprise du Lion is not dark enough? What about the soldier who is dying and gives the Inquisitor a ring to return to Commander Jehan? Or the last words of the woman dying from red lyrium poisoning where she asks the Inquisitor to place a letter for her beloved? What about the confession letter in the quest Caged Confession where Louis killed the brother of his love Linette?
The Envy demon slitting Cullen's throat even if it is the fade not dark enough? Or are gamers looking for Bioware to show an actually gang rape on screen? What is "dark" suppose to mean?
How many horrors of war need to be shown? Bodies being thrown into pits to raise them as the undead is not dark enough? The only way to stop it is to burn the bodies.
How far should a game made for entertainment go?
Some gamers are complaining about the SJW agenda but want to see the horrors of war depicted somewhat realistically. Both exist realistically. So I believe if one can be shown so can the other.
I think on paper, DA:I can get pretty darn dark, as you well exemplified with your post. My personal problem however, is the presentation, the way these possibly disturbing or poignant scenes are delivered to the audience. I never felt a connection for any NPCs or their stories. Let's take the red lyrium women's case. I strongly believe that had Bioware included cut-scenes showing close ups with the character, showing her pain in her eyes and the face of the Inquisitor touched by the sight, I think such a set up would've made me care so much more and truly make me realize the terror of red lyrium. Reading a few codex entries is interesting but I never get the emotional depth a cut-scene might give me by making a connexion between the NPC and the Inqui/the player.
Imagine if they had played the Dawn Will Come scene with a static camera angle that you could pan. that would have taken away most of the emotional power that scene had, to me anyway.
I've come across one (and only one, so far) such scene in TW3. I found it sad, cheap, and exploitive, and over the line. I am not interested in elaborating further to prevent tangents, but I really doubt that anyone who's seen it can't guess which one I'm referring to.
Well that's what I was talking about in the first place. Just defending it ( because hellooo dao fangirl here) because you said something like the former games was not any better than DAI ( or in that context) when actually showing something.There's a middle ground, and DAO (and DA2
Spoiler
No, actually.
Well that's what I was talking about in the first place. Just defending it ( because hellooo dao fangirl here) because you said something like the former games was not any better than DAI ( or in that context) when actually showing something.
Well, I don't think I meant that, necessarily (and I did specify that you need to dig deeper for it in DAI than the previous games). So I think we agree, for the most part.
Spoiler
The way in how that was presented was cringe worthy.
Picking up a blood soaked teddy bear off a dead child whose dead mother and dead father were trying to protect in the Exalted Plains is not dark enough? What about picking the wedding ring up of a couple of scorched bodies in the Emprise du Lion is not dark enough? What about the soldier who is dying and gives the Inquisitor a ring to return to Commander Jehan? Or the last words of the woman dying from red lyrium poisoning where she asks the Inquisitor to place a letter for her beloved? What about the confession letter in the quest Caged Confession where Louis killed the brother of his love Linette?
The Envy demon slitting Cullen's throat even if it is the fade not dark enough? Or are gamers looking for Bioware to show an actually gang rape on screen? What is "dark" suppose to mean?
How many horrors of war need to be shown? Bodies being thrown into pits to raise them as the undead is not dark enough? The only way to stop it is to burn the bodies.
How far should a game made for entertainment go?
Some gamers are complaining about the SJW agenda but want to see the horrors of war depicted somewhat realistically. Both exist realistically. So I believe if one can be shown so can the other.
To me it has to be more than a few corpses and a letter explaining what happened or someone who is about to die and just asks you to do something. It has to show me, make me care, it has to give me hard choices that will make me feel like crap. TW3 has plenty of those moments... Like coming across some villagers trying to hang a man who deserted the army that caused them so much pain and loss. You either kill a group of peasants and save the man that claims he deserted because he didn't want to be a part of that war and wanted to go back to his family, or you can just not believe him or simply not care and let him hang. Afterwards you see his body hanging on the noose and you can loot a letter from him which turns out to be from his wife telling him to come home to her and their child. I felt terrible when I let them hang him, but I also felt pretty bad having to kill so many people just because of that one man (and even the game acknowledges this. Man: "Thank you, if you had not come..." Geralt: "If I had not come, only one man would've died.") That is dark to me, it shows the toughness of the world, and how war affect people (in this case, those who fight in it and those who suffer from it) and it gives you some pretty hard choices. That is one example. There are several other encounters and quests like that in TW3. Let alone those quests/encounters that have bad consequences that only show later in the game and by then it's too late to go back and make another choice so you just have to live with it.
To me it has to be more than a few corpses and a letter explaining what happened or someone about to die that asks you to do something. It has to show me, make me care, it has to give me hard choices that will make me feel like crap. TW3 has plenty of those moments... Like coming across some villagers trying to hang a man who deserted the army that caused them so much pain and loss. You either kill a group of peasants and save the man that claims he deserted because he didn't want to be a part of that war and wanted to go back to his family, or you can just not believe him or simply not care and let let him hang and afterwards you can loot a letter from him from his wife telling him to come home to her and their child. I felt like sh*t when I chose that option, but I also felt pretty bad having to kill so many people just because of that one man, because I understand where they come from. That is dark to me, it shows the toughness of the world, and how war affect people (in this case, those who fight in the war and those who suffer from it) and it gives you some pretty hard choices. That is one example. There are several others encounters and quests like that in TW3.
Where did you find this, I don't remember playing anything of such ?
Where did you find this, I don't remember playing anything of such ?
Where did you find this, I don't remember playing anything of such ?
Hangman's Alley. Here's a picture of the place.
This. I also made sure that wont happen since i spoiled myself silly. But the keyword here is choices. It's pretty nice to have and not shoehorned into an outcome.The way in how that was presented was cringe worthy.
Spoiler
I think I said this earlier in the thread. Very early, I'd rather they return to more DAO elements of presentation than TW3 if they were to do anything. It just so happens that DAO is perhaps a middle ground for DAI and TW3.
My personal feels not a fact or anything
I think I said this earlier in the thread. Very early, I'd rather they return to more DAO elements of presentation than TW3 if they were to do anything. It just so happens that DAO is perhaps a middle ground for DAI and TW3.
My personal feels not a fact or anything
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