15897 réponses à ce sujet

[panzerwzh]

No, she is just trained to use a sword like they are. No mutations, no signs, no potions. Just one big Mary Sue.

Ciri has the physical training of witcher (agility, stamnia, sword fight ,secert mashroom salad etc.) But her magical training is supervised by Queen Yenna. So the basics witcher sign is more like a child play for her standard. geralt and Yen would never let her but fully mutated or trained into a witcher.

[nici2412]

Ciri has the physical training of witcher (agility, stamnia, sword fight ,secert mashroom salad etc.) But her magical training is supervised by Queen Yenna. So the basics witcher sign is more like a child play for her standard. geralt and Yen would never let her but fully mutated or trained into a witcher.

She doesn't have any (usual) magical abliities (only her elder blood ablilites) anymore and Yennefer didn't even who she was when the question about giving her the mutations came up.

[wright1978]

Where do you got that from? Everybody could be a "witcher" by you definition. There is no reason that only Ciri could be trained in witcher combat and making oils, monster lore etc.

I agree with the opinion that Ciri is not a witcher. Being a witcher is not about the profession imo but the mutations.

 

The whole reason they seek child surprises(based on the Sword of destiny) is that they believe there such a child that would not require trials of grasses.

 

Witcher is a profession. Mutagens clearly help. Witchers don't have raw magical power of being a source though(which is what sets Ciri apart). Leo could have done with mutagens but he'd clearly been trained intensively without undergoing the trials first.

[Dread-Reaper]

The whole reason they seek child surprises(based on the Sword of destiny) is that they believe there such a child that would not require trials of grasses.

 

Witcher is a profession. Mutagens clearly help. Witchers don't have raw magical power of being a source though(which is what sets Ciri apart). Leo could have done with mutagens but he'd clearly been trained intensively without undergoing the trials first.

Yet he died because he couldn't do react fast enough to parry the bolt, something the mutagens would've helped with. Even Lambert says that most of his group died within a year, fighting drowners in the swamps and they had mutations. Imagine what would happen to a person trained to kill monsters without the mutations.

[wright1978]

Yet he died because he couldn't do react fast enough to parry the bolt, something the mutagens would've helped with. Even Lambert says that most of his group died within a year, fighting drowners in the swamps and they had mutations. Imagine what would happen to a person trained to kill monsters without the mutations.

 

Mutagens clearly help & the danger of the work explain why they feel they are a necessity for now. Also why they let weaker ones get killed during training in past. They though are searching for someone who doesn't require them and the massive downsides both in terms of death of candidates and damage to surviving candidates. Ciri who is the child surprise, who has witcher training and immense powers of a source fits the bill in their eyes.

[Dread-Reaper]

Mutagens clearly help & the danger of the work explain why they feel they are a necessity for now. Also why they let weaker ones get killed during training in past. They though are searching for someone who doesn't require them and the massive downsides both in terms of death of candidates and damage to surviving candidates. Ciri who is the child surprise, who has witcher training and immense powers of a source fits the bill in their eyes.

So why didn't Geralt take her the first time they met and why did they try to give her mutations if they were looking for someone gifted enough to not need them?

[nici2412]

The whole reason they seek child surprises(based on the Sword of destiny) is that they believe there such a child that would not require trials of grasses.

 

Again, where is this from? I have read all books several times and I don't remember reading this. Same applies to the games.

 

Witcher is a profession. Mutagens clearly help. Witchers don't have raw magical power of being a source though(which is what sets Ciri apart). Leo could have done with mutagens but he'd clearly been trained intensively without undergoing the trials first.

 

 

 

Verily, there is nothing so hideous as the monsters, so contrary to nature, known as witchers for they are the offspring of foul sorcery and devilry. They are rogues without virtue, conscience or scruple, true diabolic creations, fit only for killing. There is no place amidst honest men for such as they.

And Kaer Morhen, where these infamous beings nestle, where they perform their foul practices, must be wiped from the surface of this earth, and all trace of it strewn with salt and saltpetre.

— page 43, Blood of Elves (UK edition)

 

Once as numerous as the beasts they fought, today the witchers are seen as a relic of times long gone. The exact nature of their training remains a mystery. It is known it consists, among others, of the Trails – processes that transform the organism using a specific combination of secret herbs and infusions. Those who survive them gain superhuman reflexes, speed of reaction, the ability to see in the dark and many other traits making them lethal foes. During their training they learn swordplay and basics of magic, known as Signs. Armed in this set of abilities, the witchers can effectively fulfill their objective, that is protect humans from the monsters inhabiting our world. - Witcher 2 codex entry about witchers

 

These procedures ultimately mean that each fully-trained Witcher is a mutant built specifically to hunt and kill inhuman prey. The key permanent results of mutations shared by all Witchers include:

• Sterility (which partially explains selection from the outsiders, as they cannot breed to pass on their traits). -
• Amber cat-like eyes that grant very acute nightvision - the Witchers can constrict their pupils to see in blinding light or open them to see in near pitch black.
• Tremendous resistance to disease (which functions in most cases as complete immunity) and a boosted immune system allowing them to consume large quantities of potions that could prove easily deadly if consumed even in small amounts by a normal man. -
• Dramatically increased strength, speed, reflexes and endurance, far beyond any normal or well-trained human. A Witcher's physical skills are sufficient to defeat most monsters if combined with extensive training and proper weaponry.
• Having the ability to perform simple yet incredibly versatile combat magic in the form of Signs. They also develop a sixth sense that allows them to "feel" things around them ,be it items of importance, peoples immediate intentions etc.. This explains there uncanny ability to track and hunt people and monsters.
• Accelerated healing that grants quick recovery from injury.
• Incredibly long lifespan

Ciri doesn't have a single of these witcher specific traits. The only thing she has in common with all other witchers is her combat training. That makes her hardly a witcher. The mutations are a essential part of being a witcher. It is what distinguishes them from "normal" soldiers/merchants/fighters and makes them so effective against monsters. (for instance their resistence to diseases or the ability to see in the dark, which is both necessary to fight monsters)

Witchers were created by mages, who needed a tool against the monsters which appeared because of the conjunction of the spheres.

They weren't trained by these mages. These mages invented the mutations and used them on humans to turn them into witchers. The combat training came later and was not the reason why the were called witchers.

[wright1978]

Again, where is this from? I have read all books several times and I don't remember reading this. Same applies to the games.

 

Page 344 in my copy  of sword of destiny

 

Spoiler

"Do you believe the child surprise would pass through the trials without danger."(Calanthe)

"We believe such a child would not require the trials." (Geralt)

[nici2412]

Mutagens clearly help & the danger of the work explain why they feel they are a necessity for now. Also why they let weaker ones get killed during training in past. They though are searching for someone who doesn't require them and the massive downsides both in terms of death of candidates and damage to surviving candidates. Ciri who is the child surprise, who has witcher training and immense powers of a source fits the bill in their eyes.

First of all. Geralt never took Ciri to Kaer Morhen to make a witcher out of her. He even said to Triss I think that he just didn't know what to do with her and a little bit of combat training wouldn't hurt. Secondly Geralt didn't even know that she had any powers or was a source when her "witcher training" started.

[nici2412]

Page 344 in my copy  of sword of destiny

 

Spoiler

"Do you believe the child surprise would pass through the trials without danger."(Calanthe)

"We believe such a child would not require the trials." (Geralt)

 

Page 344 in my copy  of sword of destiny

 

Spoiler

"Do you believe the child surprise would pass through the trials without danger."(Calanthe)

"We believe such a child would not require the trials." (Geralt)

That doesn't make any sense.

How would the child of surprise get all the specific traits which make them so effective against monsters without going through the trials.

A normal human without the superhuman speed, the reflexes and strenght, the ability to see in the dark and the immunity/high resistence to diseases wouldn't survive very long. They would be just common human monster hunters (like the cinfrid reavers, who are specialized in fighting dragons) knowing witcher combat techniques

[wright1978]

So why didn't Geralt take her the first time they met and why did they try to give her mutations if they were looking for someone gifted enough to not need them?

 

Once again if you read the books. Geralt renounces destiny, says he doesn't believe in it & won't follow it like a blind man. Hence why he refuses to take Ciri from Calanthe, hence why he sends her back when he eventually finds her.

 

They didn't try and give her mutagens as far as i'm aware. They gave her various witcher standard concoctions but in no way put her through the trials & sent for help from Triss because they were rather at a loss at how to proceed.

[wright1978]

That doesn't make any sense.

How would the child of surprise get all the specific traits which make them so ffective against monsters without going through the trials.

A normal human without the superhuman speed, the reflexes and strenght, the ability to see in the dark and the immunity/high resistence to diseases wouldn't survive very long. They would be just common human monster hunters (like the cinfrid reavers, who are specialized in fighting dragons) knowing witcher combat techniques

 

It's not that a child surprise in of itself is super powerful. Its the legend that the uber witcher will be a child surprise. Witchers have been seeking child surprises in the hope that one will turn out to the prophesied one. Maybe it's a fantasy they've adopted to help them bear the horror of the trials or maybe its truly the case that destiny has ordained that Ciri(the child of elder blood) will be that Child Surprise.

[Dread-Reaper]

Once again if you read the books. Geralt renounces destiny, says he doesn't believe in it & won't follow it like a blind man. Hence why he refuses to take Ciri from Calanthe, hence why he sends her back when he eventually finds her.

 

They didn't try and give her mutagens as far as i'm aware. They gave her various witcher standard concoctions but in no way put her through the trials & sent for help from Triss because they were rather at a loss at how to proceed.

I have yet to read the books, all my knowledge is from the games.

 

You're confusing me, you say they're looking for someone who won't need the mutations, but refuses to accept a potential candidate. 

 

Also weren't they planning on putting Ciri through the Trials and mutations, but Triss stopped them when she arrived because it would cause her lose her womanly assets?

[nici2412]

@wright1978

If Geralt decided to give Triss sword combat training during the 3 months she stayed in Kaer Morhen and Triss would hunt some monster afterwards. she would be then officially a witcher according to you?

[nici2412]

It's not that a child surprise in of itself is super powerful. Its the legend that the uber witcher will be a child surprise. Witchers have been seeking child surprises in the hope that one will turn out to the prophesied one. Maybe it's a fantasy they've adopted to help them bear the horror of the trials or maybe its truly the case that destiny has ordained that Ciri(the child of elder blood) will be that Child Surprise.

A child of surprise is not only not super powerful but not any different from a normal human. Ciri was an exception because she was also a mage, a source and has elder blood. That's why that doesn't make any sense. If the child of surprise is a regular human without any magical powers, then he would never achieve the requirements needed to be effective against monsters without going through the mutations.

[wright1978]

First of all. Geralt never took Ciri to Kaer Morhen to make a witcher out of her. He even said to Triss I think that he just didn't know what to do with her and a little bit of combat training wouldn't hurt. Secondly Geralt didn't even know that she had any powers or was a source when her "witcher training" started.

 

The fact that Geralt is still resisting destiny is something that carries on into later books. So yeah they train her out of habit initially but just because they haven't yet accepted she's the child surprise(in their eyes they would expect it to be a boy anyway) they have been waiting for, doesn't mean that she isn't it.

[nici2412]

The fact that Geralt is still resisting destiny is something that carries on into later books. So yeah they train her out of habit initially but just because they haven't yet accepted she's the child surprise(in their eyes they would expect it to be a boy anyway) they have been waiting for, doesn't mean that she isn't it.

 

I'm pretty sure Geralt accepted it at the end of Sword of Destiny when he found her with the family of the merchant he helped.

[MoonDrummer]

Page 344 in my copy  of sword of destiny

 

Spoiler

"Do you believe the child surprise would pass through the trials without danger."(Calanthe)

"We believe such a child would not require the trials." (Geralt)

I think that is their 'good excuse' for not taking in recruits, there is no one capable of being a witcher without mutations. Think of the Witcher that was killed by the Striga and the one that left without even trying, how on earth would a non-mutated witcher be able to take it, if actual witchers aren't even quick enough?

[wright1978]

@wright1978

If Geralt decided to give Triss sword combat training during the 3 months she stayed in Kaer Morhen and Triss would hunt some monster afterwards. she would be then officially a witcher according to you?

 

If Triss succeeded in mastering all the different moves and mastered all the complex monster lore & was acknowledged by the members of a witcher school i don't see why not. Signs are just cheap magic foreplay anyway.

Being a mage is a much more prestigious, glamorous, well paying and less dangerous profession though so i doubt she or anyone else would take it up as an occupation.

[nici2412]

If Triss succeeded in mastering all the different moves and mastered all the complex monster lore & was acknowledged by the members of a witcher school i don't see why not. Signs are just cheap magic foreplay anyway.

Being a mage is a much more prestigious, glamorous, well paying and less dangerous profession though so i doubt she or anyone else would take it up as an occupation.

I see. Then let's just agree to disagree. Imo Ciri or any other person can't be called a witcher without going through the mutations. Your opinion differs.

[wright1978]

I'm pretty sure Geralt accepted it at the end of Sword of Destiny when he found her with the family of the merchant he helped.

 

He sends her away again which implies he's still resisting.

[nici2412]

Actually there is one more thing;

 

 

This guy hasn't worked as a witcher for a long time. He was a mercenary before  and is now  a merchant.

Yet in the moment Geralt sees his eyes he immediately  calls him a "witcher". The man doesn't deny it but responses it with "very true".

After asking how he became a merchant he sees himself as a merchant (his profession) but also as a witcher (although he doesn't hunt monsters any more) "no witcher ever died in his bed"

None of them treats being a witcher as a profession during that conversation. Once you went through the mutations you are a witcher for the rest of your life, no matter if you hunt monsters for coin or not.

[wright1978]

I think that is their 'good excuse' for not taking in recruits, there is no one capable of being a witcher without mutations. Think of the Witcher that was killed by the Striga and the one that left without even trying, how on earth would a none mutated witcher be able to take it, if actual witchers aren't even quick enough?

 

No its what they've always sought it when seeking recruits.

Spoiler

"a game based on somebody's suffering. why then, answer me, are parents and guardians forced to make such difficult and burdensome vows? why are their children taken from them? after all there are plenty of children around who don't need to be taken away from anybody. entire packs of homeless children and orphans roam the roads."

 

As Ciri evidences a non mutated witcher with extremely powerful other abilities can obviate the need for mutagens.

[nici2412]

He sends her away again which implies he's still resisting.

He sends her away because he never had the intention to make a witcher out of her.

[wright1978]

Actually there is one more thing;

 

 

This guy hasn't worked as a witcher for a long time. He was a mercenary before  and is now  a merchant.

Yet in the moment Geralt sees his eyes he immediately  calls him a "witcher". The man doesn't deny it but respsons it with "very true".

After asking how he became a merchant he sees himself as a merchant (his profession) but also as a witcher (although he doesn't hunt monsters any more) "no witcher ever died in his bed"

None of them treats being a witcher as a profession during that conversation. Once you went through the mutations you are a witcher for the rest of your life, no matter if you hunt monsters for coin or not.

 

But he was a witcher of the school of the cat. You can argue that witchers don't take much truck with the notion of resigning i suppose. Once a witcher always one.

If it turned out he was a mutant who had never been a witcher and they called him one then that might be evidence.