15847 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRaccoon]

I'm very sceptical of this claim. I haven't played the game enough to comment on most zones but there aren't very many true side quests compared to filler content like "treasure hunts" or other random AC2 style map fillers. There are a lot of things TW3 did well but this idea the majority of their content was top-notch side quests is a bit misleading. When they did a quest they did it right but a lot of content isn't even a quest.

 

What I can say is that the voiced side quests are much detailed and in length than those in DAI. There are also some incident-like side quests like saving someone from monsters. Of course there are tons of random question marks on the map but at least the voiced quests (accompanied by cutscene dialog) are very well done.

[Lord Bolton]

Instead, they will instead dislike it because "well its misogynistic" (even though misogyny is a hatred of the human female, I for one can't fathom how one can hate human females while portraying them as sexually independent powerful being such as sorceresses) or "well its homophobic" (even though elements of homosexuality is in the game, Ciri is a bisexual for example, but it does not dominate the story).

 

Someone on BSN criticized TW3, because Geralt is heterosexual. 

 

Yes, TW3 isn't homophobic. Another example:

I've met some gay hunter near first village we're visiting. Well, he was exiled from the village, because he's homosexual, but let's face it- treating homosexuality like this is something normal in medieval Europe. It would be homophobic if he was portrayed as stereotypical gay, but he was... normal. I really liked him and I felt sorry for his tragic past.

[Hazegurl]

But what did we lose that could be construed as "sexist"? Brothels? They were always a s**t feature. I long argued they should be cut. I don't even care particularly about the unfortunate implications around prostitution; they weren't particularly titillating, and the joke about special services offered by the brothel was wearing thin. And anyways, if the scenes of Geralt boning prostitutes is so fantastic in the Witcher, how does Dragon Age "forge its own identity" by aping what they do?

 

What else? Desire demons? They were over-used in DA2, and besides, what were you going to have them DO combat-wise? We already have rage demons for fire damage, despair demons for cold damage, terror demons for spirit, pride demons for electric damage, wraiths for ranged attacks and shades for straight melee fighters.

 

What else? The women being in charge, or fighting? The Chantry was always a matriarchal organization since DAO, and there's never been any restriction on women being in combat.

 

My entire argument is not that BW is wrong to remove content they deem sexist but their over indulgence in removing/adding ANY content people complain about.  Also, I don't believe DA should copy the Witcher.  BW couldn't copy them if their life depended on it, just like they couldn't copy Sykrim.  BW needs to find their own identity for DA and stick with it.  Not change it at the wishes and whim of everybody with an opinion.

 

You don't like the brothels. Good for you.  Does that mean brothels should be cut completely? No.  It's optional. Don't like them don't go. I do believe that their brothels could have been tweaked but to suddenly erase them from the world makes zero sense. As if prostitution will just suddenly go away if you make the crisis big enough. Yeah right.

 

Desire Demons are a part of the DA verse, like it or not.  Making them vanish is stupid will be noticed.  They are no more over used than pride demons.  And in some cases they have been far more interesting than any other demons they showcase.  Desire demons are intelligent and cunning and actually had dialogue cut scenes.  Storywise, Desire demons provided some decent side content.  But I think we're on different pages here as you're focused on combat.. And even then your argument is weak.  It still makes no sense for demons that represent human desires to suddenly vanish from the world.  Especially when they represent all desires not just sexual.

 

Women being in charge cannot be added as your argument as that is nothing new for the series and thus not something added due to fan complaints.

[thats1evildude]

 

You don't like the brothels. Good for you.  Does that mean brothels should be cut completely? No.  It's optional. Don't like them don't go. I do believe that their brothels could have been tweaked but to suddenly erase them from the world makes zero sense. As if prostitution will just suddenly go away if you make the crisis big enough. Yeah right.

 

The point is that they were a waste of resources. Effort spent making one obligatory, poorly-implemented brothel per game was better spent elsewhere. If we got, say, bard songs in place of brothels, I would consider that a far better trade.

 

They didn't eliminate prostitution from the setting; there are a number of references to brothels in Orlais, and Iron Bull hires a girl for Cole. They just eliminated your ability to utilize brothels.

 

 

Desire Demons are a part of the DA verse, like it or not.  Making them vanish is stupid will be noticed.  They are no more over used than pride demons.

 

They were WAY more over-used than pride demons. I didn't see one of those guys until Act 2 of DA2, and desire demons were popping up in Act 1.

 

And as the quote in your signature proves, they're not "gone." They just don't have any prominent roles in DAI. There are only a few named demons in the whole game, Nightmare and Imshael being the most prominent examples.

[AresKeith]

Desire Demons are a part of the DA verse, like it or not.  Making them vanish is stupid will be noticed.  They are no more over used than pride demons.  And in some cases they have been far more interesting than any other demons they showcase.  Desire demons are intelligent and cunning and actually had dialogue cut scenes.  Storywise, Desire demons provided some decent side content.  But I think we're on different pages here as you're focused on combat.. And even then your argument is weak.  It still makes no sense for demons that represent human desires to suddenly vanish from the world.  Especially when they represent all desires not just sexual.

 

Just because they didn't appear in DAI doesn't mean they vanished. Hunger, sloth, and abominations never made a true appearance but they're still a part of DA verse

[Bayonet Hipshot]

My entire argument is not that BW is wrong to remove content they deem sexist but their over indulgence in removing/adding ANY content people complain about.  Also, I don't believe DA should copy the Witcher.  BW couldn't copy them if their life depended on it, just like they couldn't copy Sykrim.  BW needs to find their own identity for DA and stick with it.  Not change it at the wishes and whim of everybody with an opinion.

 

You don't like the brothels. Good for you.  Does that mean brothels should be cut completely? No.  It's optional. Don't like them don't go. I do believe that their brothels could have been tweaked but to suddenly erase them from the world makes zero sense. As if prostitution will just suddenly go away if you make the crisis big enough. Yeah right.

 

Desire Demons are a part of the DA verse, like it or not.  Making them vanish is stupid will be noticed.  They are no more over used than pride demons.  And in some cases they have been far more interesting than any other demons they showcase.  Desire demons are intelligent and cunning and actually had dialogue cut scenes.  Storywise, Desire demons provided some decent side content.  But I think we're on different pages here as you're focused on combat.. And even then your argument is weak.  It still makes no sense for demons that represent human desires to suddenly vanish from the world.  Especially when they represent all desires not just sexual.

 

Women being in charge cannot be added as your argument as that is nothing new for the series and thus not something added due to fan complaints.

 

Word. 

[Hazegurl]

The point is that they were a waste of resources. Effort spent making one obligatory, poorly-implemented brothel per game was better spent elsewhere. If we got, say, bard songs in place of brothels, I would consider that a far better trade.

 

They didn't eliminate prostitution from the setting; there are a number of references to brothels in Orlais, and Iron Bull hires a girl for Cole. They just eliminated your ability to utilize brothels.

 

 

Ah yes, the good old "waste of resource" argument.  Perhaps if they didn't waste their resources giving us half-assed racial options they would have had the resources to tweak their system....but I hardly believe it's a resource issue. 

 

They were WAY more over-used than pride demons. I didn't see one of those guys until Act 2 of DA2, and desire demons were popping up in Act 1.

 

And as the quote in your signature proves, they're not "gone." They just don't have any prominent roles in DAI. There are only a few named demons in the whole game, Nightmare and Imshael being the most prominent examples.

 

Once again, weak argument.  When every Rift fight in DAI was the same old demons and same old tactics repeated over and over again.  Fight demons, weaken rift, fight demons, close rift. Oh soooo interesting.  Your argument would make sense if BW actually gave us demon variety in DAI.  They didn't.

 

Just because they didn't appear in DAI doesn't mean they vanished. Hunger, sloth, and abominations never made a true appearance but they're still a part of DA verse

 

Touche, you got me there.  Perhaps they'll show up in the next game as fully clothed men.

[AresKeith]

 

Touche, you got me there.  Perhaps they'll show up in the next game as fully clothed men.

 

[In Exile]

You don't like the brothels. Good for you.  Does that mean brothels should be cut completely? No.  It's optional. Don't like them don't go. I do believe that their brothels could have been tweaked but to suddenly erase them from the world makes zero sense. As if prostitution will just suddenly go away if you make the crisis big enough. Yeah right.

 

Your problem - which you've mentioned repeatedly in this thread - is that Bioware under-invested critical resources into cinematics and side-quest content. And your view is that what they should have done is build a brothel, which never had quests, and essentially create joke cutscenes about orgies with animals, which was the only notably funny part of the Brothel in DA:O? Is this just really meta, where you want to prove how poorly Bioware allocated their resources by suggesting an even more terrible way of allocating those resources?

 

 

Ah yes, the good old "waste of resource" argument.  Perhaps if they didn't waste their resources giving us half-assed racial options they would have had the resources to tweak their system....but I hardly believe it's a resource issue.

 

Okay, so then they should compound their error by wasting their resources giving us a brothel instead? How is a brothel better than multiple races, even if you think they're poorly implemented (which is ridiculous to begin with; there was more reactivity to race than DA:O)? 

[In Exile]

What I can say is that the voiced side quests are much detailed and in length than those in DAI. There are also some incident-like side quests like saving someone from monsters. Of course there are tons of random question marks on the map but at least the voiced quests (accompanied by cutscene dialog) are very well done.

 

Well, sure. I agree totally with you on that, as I repeatedly said. I just think that "fetch quests" are the equivalent of that random treasure map stuff. I absolutely think TW3 found a much better way of adding in filler content for the open world without making their quests feel like they're poor - but a lot of that IMO flows from the fact that they also have good and clever (and unique!) quest design, not just because they have a few cutscenes with at, most, 2 dialogue options per conversation tree. 

[Han Shot First]

I'm very sceptical of this claim. I haven't played the game enough to comment on most zones but there aren't very many true side quests compared to filler content like "treasure hunts" or other random AC2 style map fillers. There are a lot of things TW3 did well but this idea the majority of their content was top-notch side quests is a bit misleading. When they did a quest they did it right but a lot of content isn't even a quest.

 

 

Not every quest is a work of genius quest design, but that is also true of every RPG ever made. It also likely to be true of any future RPG made by any company. But when you compare the side quests in TW3 to DA:I overall they aren't even in the same league. A majority of DA:I's side quests were boring or added little in terms of story, atmosphere, or immersion in the game's universe. I'm not having the same experience with TW3 at all.

 

Having said that I think DA:I devs did an excellent job overall on the main quests, and they are easily as entertaining and immersive of those in the TW3. DA:I also looks as good for the most part (character hair excluded) as TW3. It's the side content where the TW3 was much more successful than DA:I.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Touche, you got me there.  Perhaps they'll show up in the next game as fully clothed men.

Next game? We had that in Inquisition.

[Elhanan]

Ah yes, the good old "waste of resource" argument.  Perhaps if they didn't waste their resources giving us half-assed racial options they would have had the resources to tweak their system....but I hardly believe it's a resource issue. 
 
Once again, weak argument.  When every Rift fight in DAI was the same old demons and same old tactics repeated over and over again.  Fight demons, weaken rift, fight demons, close rift. Oh soooo interesting.  Your argument would make sense if BW actually gave us demon variety in DAI.  They didn't.
 
Touche, you got me there.  Perhaps they'll show up in the next game as fully clothed men.

Terror, Despair, Fear, Envy, Pride, and Rage demons are included in DAI, and more. Perhaps if one did not ignore content, they might see that variety exists.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Demon

[In Exile]

Not every quest is a work of genius quest design, but that is also true of every RPG ever made. It also likely to be true of any future RPG made by any company. But when you compare the side quests in TW3 to DA:I overall they aren't even in the same league. A majority of DA:I's side quests were boring or added little in terms of story, atmosphere, or immersion in the game's universe. I'm not having the same experience with TW3 at all.

 

Having said that I think DA:I devs did an excellent job overall on the main quests, and they are easily as entertaining and immersive of those in the TW3. DA:I also looks as good for the most part (character hair excluded) as TW3. It's the side content where the TW3 was much more successful than DA:I.

 

I'm not disagreeing that TW3 generally has quite strong quests. I just think it's misleading to compare the druffalo quest, say, with the monster-at-the-well quest in the starter area, when you have things like "find the Viper school equipment mats" style quests. 

[AresKeith]

Next game? We had that in Inquisition.

 

Well Imshael isn't exactly your average Desire Demon either lol

[In Exile]

Well Imshael isn't exactly your average Desire Demon either lol

 

Choice spirit. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well Imshael isn't exactly your average Desire Demon either lol

True, he is a "Choice Spirit". 

[AresKeith]

Choice spirit. 

 

I still call him Crowley tbh lol

[thats1evildude]

 

 

Once again, weak argument.  When every Rift fight in DAI was the same old demons and same old tactics repeated over and over again.  Fight demons, weaken rift, fight demons, close rift. Oh soooo interesting.  Your argument would make sense if BW actually gave us demon variety in DAI.  They didn't.

 

 

Do enemies of the same type in The Witcher 3 employ vastly different tactics from one fight to the next? Like, if you fight ... I dunno, a ghoul ... in the first half of the game, will a ghoul in the second half use totally different abilities? If not, then don't criticize the lack of variety in tactics.

 

And we had quite a bit more variety in demons in DAI than in DA2 and even DAO, when they were limited to: pride demons, desire demons, sloth demons (which didn't have their own model), rage demons, shades and abominations. Aside from dropping abominations and desire demons, we have despair demons, wraiths, terror demons, and fear demons (both big and small) added to the mix.

 

 

Ah yes, the good old "waste of resource" argument.  Perhaps if they didn't waste their resources giving us half-assed racial options they would have had the resources to tweak their system....but I hardly believe it's a resource issue. 

 

Why are brothels a more important use of resources than racial variety? You choose a character to play for an entire game, and the ability to choose different races — however "half-assed" they may be — adds to replay value.

 

How much time did you spend in a brothel for non quest-related reasons in DAO? I'll guess ... one visit to see what's there, maybe once more when you were in Denerim and bored, and once more to see the "special services?" So maybe 20 minutes out of a 40-hour plus game? 30 minutes, tops?

 

And DA2 offered even less variety than DAO, and the joke about the special services was less funny because we were expecting it.

 

 

Your problem - which you've mentioned repeatedly in this thread - is that Bioware under-invested critical resources into cinematics and side-quest content. And your view is that what they should have done is build a brothel, which never had quests, and essentially create joke cutscenes about orgies with animals, which was the only notably funny part of the Brothel in DA:O? Is this just really meta, where you want to prove how poorly Bioware allocated their resources by suggesting an even more terrible way of allocating those resources?

 

Yes, exactly.

[Han Shot First]

I think an interesting route for Bioware to go with Desire demons is to use them sparingly, and have the encounters in DA4 occur at some point in the story where the main character should already be locked into a romance. Have the Desire Demon's appearance either be an idealized/overly sexualized male or female depending on the main character's romance flag. Spirits don't really have a gender anyway, and it would make sense for those demons to try and tempt the character with their own desires. 

 

If its a forever alone playthrough have the demon go more for lust for power or greed than carnal desire. 

[In Exile]

Do enemies of the same type in The Witcher 3 employ vastly different tactics from one fight to the next? Like, if you fight ... I dunno, a ghoul ... in the first half of the game, will a ghoul in the second half use totally different abilities? If not, then don't criticize the lack of variety in tactics.

 

I'm going to take this opportunity to again harp on the poorly implemented combat in TW3, and the general inability to stagger enemies during their combo attacks. So far, enemies don't use tactics in the same fight - it's more based on issues flowing from the combat mechanics themselves. And it's crazy frustrating, because there is a brilliantly choreographed combat system here, with a lot of really clever concepts behind it. The design is just not quite there. Ah, well. Maybe in a patch.  

[In Exile]

I think an interesting route for Bioware to go with Desire demons is to use them sparingly, and have the encounters in DA4 occur at some point in the story where the main character should already be locked into a romance. Have the Desire Demon's appearance either be an idealized/overly sexualized male or female depending on the main character's romance flag. Spirits don't really have a gender anyway, and it would make sense for those demons to try and tempt the character with their own desires. 

 

If its a forever alone playthrough have the demon go more for lust for power or greed than carnal desire. 

 

Really, the true criticism of DA:I is that in a so-called demon invasion (at least at the start) we get one interaction with a spirit chucked through the rift, in Crestwood. While there is a handwave (again in Crestwood, which IMO was clearly the cut starter area) that getting punted through a rift makes demons go coo-coo for cocopuffs and hence violent, the absence of interaction with any demon is the failing, which has us not really experience their namesake sin/emotion for ourselves. 

 

A showdown with a despair or fear demon (e.g. a kind of microcosm of the Envy demons showdown) would have been great. 

[AresKeith]

Really, the true criticism of DA:I is that in a so-called demon invasion (at least at the start) we get one interaction with a spirit chucked through the rift, in Crestwood. While there is a handwave (again in Crestwood, which IMO was clearly the cut starter area) that getting punted through a rift makes demons go coo-coo for cocopuffs an dhence violent, the absence of interaction with any demon is the failing, which has us not really experience their namesake sin/emotion for ourselves. 

 

A showdown with a despair or fear demon (e.g. a kind of microcosm of the Envy demons showdown) would have been great. 

 

A Fear demon working with Cory (like Envy did) in one of the areas would've been awesome 

[Saphiron123]

The point is that they were a waste of resources. Effort spent making one obligatory, poorly-implemented brothel per game was better spent elsewhere. If we got, say, bard songs in place of brothels, I would consider that a far better trade.

 

They didn't eliminate prostitution from the setting; there are a number of references to brothels in Orlais, and Iron Bull hires a girl for Cole. They just eliminated your ability to utilize brothels.

 

 

 

They were WAY more over-used than pride demons. I didn't see one of those guys until Act 2 of DA2, and desire demons were popping up in Act 1.

 

And as the quote in your signature proves, they're not "gone." They just don't have any prominent roles in DAI. There are only a few named demons in the whole game, Nightmare and Imshael being the most prominent examples.

Maybe they were a waste of resources, but where did those resources go? Crappy mage mobs with no actual spells or mana? Rocks for mining? Quests that weren't voiced at all that we got from notes on the ground?

Those wastes of resources had more attention and effort put into them then 80% of the quests in DAI.

And Ishmael was the crappiest written desire demon of all time... so much wasted potential. he could have offered some things of actual value, and had a story where he was free to have a real impact if the player gave in, he could have had a unique form instead of human and recycled rift demons... nope, zero effort. A male desire demon is fine, but that was one of many disappointments in the game where the dev just didn't bother to add the important touches.

[Saphiron123]

Instead in TW3 we encounter some random note in a treasure chest that triggers a dialogue less quest to clean out a zone on a map for a schematic. Again, its pretty misleading to say that all content is top side quests even though anything that counts a a true quest is far better done.

The thing is, that kind of quest in the witcher is so far extremely rare. In DAI it's the majority. Most quests iN DAI have no unique companion dialogue, hell, in many cases none at all, no impact on the world, +2 power and quest complete.