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[AresKeith]

Maybe they were a waste of resources, but where did those resources go? Crappy mage mobs with no actual spells or mana? Rocks for mining? Quests that weren't voiced at all that we got from notes on the ground?

Those wastes of resources had more attention and effort put into them then 80% of the quests in DAI.

And Ishmael was the crappiest written desire demon of all time... so much wasted potential. he could have offered some things of actual value, and had a story where he was free to have a real impact if the player gave in, he could have had a unique form instead of human and recycled rift demons... nope, zero effort. A male desire demon is fine, but that was one of many disappointments in the game where the dev just didn't bother to add the important touches.

 

Did you complain about this when they did it to the other Forbidden Ones?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And Ishmael was the crappiest written desire demon of all time... so much wasted potential. he could have offered some things of actual value, and had a story where he was free to have a real impact if the player gave in, he could have had a unique form instead of human and recycled rift demons... nope, zero effort. A male desire demon is fine, but that was one of many disappointments in the game where the dev just didn't bother to add the important touches.

The other Forbidden Ones shifted through various demon forms when fighting too. 

[TheOgre]

Did you complain about this when they did it to the other Forbidden One?

 

I did, but at least she looked like a desire demon's traditional form instead of a FULLY CLOTHED HUMAN.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I did, but at least she looked like a desire demon's traditional form instead of a FULLY CLOTHED HUMAN.

The one in DAO was a fully clothed human too. 

[AresKeith]

I did, but at least she looked like a desire demon's traditional form instead of a FULLY CLOTHED HUMAN.

 

He was a human in order to make deals, and the Forbidden One are apparently shape-shifters also 

[TheOgre]

The one in DAO was a fully clothed human too. 

 

I hate him too then (honestly I don't think I encountered him)

[Hazegurl]

Your problem - which you've mentioned repeatedly in this thread - is that Bioware under-invested critical resources into cinematics and side-quest content. And your view is that what they should have done is build a brothel, which never had quests, and essentially create joke cutscenes about orgies with animals, which was the only notably funny part of the Brothel in DA:O? Is this just really meta, where you want to prove how poorly Bioware allocated their resources by suggesting an even more terrible way of allocating those resources?

 

 

Okay, so then they should compound their error by wasting their resources giving us a brothel instead? How is a brothel better than multiple races, even if you think they're poorly implemented (which is ridiculous to begin with; there was more reactivity to race than DA:O)? 

What a way to find one thing in my entire post to nitpick and proclaim as my entire point.

 

I used brothels as one of the examples of BW over doing the changes, I never used it as the only example.

 

I said it's something they could have tweaked not just delete. Thus I am not arguing in favor of adding the same old content they had before.  Once again, just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean it must disappear.  But go ahead and argue how I only want BW to write shitty sex scenes simply because I mentioned something sex related as an example.  

[thats1evildude]

Maybe they were a waste of resources, but where did those resources go? Crappy mage mobs with no actual spells or mana? Rocks for mining? Quests that weren't voiced at all that we got from notes on the ground?

 

Now we're moving the goalposts. Hazegurl's whole point was that Bioware had undermined the game by eliminating the "sexist" content. My point is that the "sexist" content was kind of shitty or unimportant to begin with, and not much was lost.

 

Those wastes of resources had more attention and effort put into them then 80% of the quests in DAI.

Like **** they were. I got more enjoyment out of leading that stupid druffalo back to the farm than I ever did the brothels. At least I could aim Druffy at enemies.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Like **** they were. I got more enjoyment out of leading that stupid druffalo back to the farm than I ever did the dumb brothels.

That Druffalo was amazing. It was unkillable. I lead it purposefully to that high level rift and just let it kill all the demons.

That Druffalo is an honorary member of the Inquisition.

[Hazegurl]

Next game? We had that in Inquisition.

lol!! That's who I was referring to. 

[thats1evildude]

I did, but at least she looked like a desire demon's traditional form instead of a FULLY CLOTHED HUMAN.

 

So did Gaxkhang, at the start.

 

Besides, I don't think Imshael is actually a desire demon. Michel calls him that, but Michel doesn't really know what he truly is (one of the Forbidden Ones).

[In Exile]

What a way to find one thing in my entire post to nitpick and proclaim as my entire point.

 

I used brothels as one of the examples of BW over doing the changes, I never used it as the only example.

 

I said it's something they could have tweaked not just delete. Thus I am not arguing in favor of adding the same old content they had before.  Once again, just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean it must disappear.  But go ahead and argue how I only want BW to write shitty sex scenes simply because I mentioned something sex related as an example.  

 

I didn't proclaim it as your entire post. It is simply a point you made, and the one I wanted to follow up one. 

 

I didn't want to get into another pointless debate about people's baseless outrage about gender representation in Bioware games but, instead, focus on content. And in this case, the argument that brothels were somehow removed because they were "deem[ed] sexist" rather than because they are a complete and total waste of resources. 

 

My position is that a brothel is the most meaningless waste of content. It doesn't add to the verisimilitude of the world. It wastes VO, cutscene and level-design resources that could very well be invested into quests. It's actually a net negative, and there is no level of investment - unless the game outright has infinite resources - that would, in my view, justify its inclusion. 

[TheOgre]

So did Gaxkhang, at the start.

 

Besides, I don't think Imshael is actually a desire demon. Michel calls him that, but Michel doesn't really know what he truly is (one of the Forbidden Ones).

 

I hate him too then (honestly I don't think I encountered him)

refer to this..

[In Exile]

I should add that I'm not against brothels being in a game - you can have lots of cool quests with them. Deus Ex HR comes to mind as a place that both has a clear brothel and some great quests centered around it. But it's not a random place for pixelated sex, which is what the TW2 brothel amounted to being (haven't gotten far enough in TW3 to encounter a brothel if such a thing exists) and what the DA:O/DA2 brothels alluded toward. 

[Lethaya]

@TheOgre: Gaxkhang then, just in case you're curious:

 

 

Personally didn't mind Imshael, though I do wish he had at least warrented a cutscene or something. That dialogue. XD

[AresKeith]

@TheOgre: Gaxkhang then, just in case you're curious:

 

 

Personally didn't mind Imshael, though I do wish he had at least warrented a cutscene or something. That dialogue. XD

 

I was hoping he would play a part in the main story

 

But I figured he was gonna be reduced to a side mission like his other brethren 

[Hazegurl]

I didn't proclaim it as your entire post. It is simply a point you made, and the one I wanted to follow up one. 

 

 

 

And you chose to follow up on it by wrongly making the claim that I want the same content as in DAO/DA2 and that major resources should be allocated to it by comparing it to my major complaints of the game, which is lack of story content.

 

I didn't want to get into another pointless debate about people's baseless outrage about gender representation in Bioware games but, instead, focus on content. And in this case, the argument that brothels were somehow removed "deem[ed] sexist" rather than because they are a complete and total waste of resources. 

 

Prove they were a drain on resources.  Oh wait, you can't.  Anymore than I can prove they were removed due to sexism.  But I know the fan complaints about them were that they were sexist. And suddenly...by these same fans, they are suddenly a resource problem.   Perhaps you're not one of them, but I have argued with them on this issue before.  Their cries of sexism turning into a sudden care for game resources.  

 

 

My position is that a brothel is the most meaningless waste of content. It doesn't add to the verisimilitude of the world. It wastes VO, cutscene and level-design resources that could very well be invested into quests. It's actually a net negative, and there is no level of investment - unless the game outright has infinite resources - that would, in my view, justify its inclusion. 

 

The brothels are only meaningless waste of content when unimaginative devs/writers can't do anything with them.  It's just a location, a setting that can be filled with a variety of characters and story lines.  It can also add to the background and look of a city.  I hate saying this, but look at Witcher 3, The high class brothel looked completely different from a low class establishment within a city.  Then you had the street walkers in the bad sections of town.  Even if the places won't have quests, it can still add atmosphere to a location. So yeah, saying that it wastes resources to the point of total deletion is just promoting world building laziness.

 

Judging by DAI, I would say every location on their map aside from the Winter Palace and the Templar fortress (Templar side) was a complete waste of resources anyway. 

 

So get off the high horse, because I never said - or even implied - that you care about "sex scenes". I took a shot at the waste of resources that is a brothel, and your, frankly, somewhat hypocritical defense of the feature. 

 

The only person sitting on that high horse is you.

[Joseph Warrick]

If your location doesn't have prostitutes you're a lazy developer.

[thats1evildude]

Prove they were a drain on resources.  Oh wait, you can't.  Anymore than I can prove they were removed due to sexism.

 

 

In Exile can't "prove" an opinion any more than I can. But if a thing requires resources to create and the "thing" is bad and not worth the effort, then it is a waste of those resources.

 

And yeah, brothels could have made an appearance in DAI and been a creative use of resources by being the nexus of several different and interesting quests. But judging from how they were implemented in DAO and DA2, that wasn't going to be the case. They weren't being done well.

 

Honestly, DAI is not poorer for the lack of a brothel anymore than DA2 is poorer for the lack of a mechanic where your dog gets stronger by peeing on certain objects.

[Hazegurl]

If your location doesn't have prostitutes you're a lazy developer.

Yes, that's my entire point. 

 

I think   will be posted often during this topic of discussion.

 

In Exile can't "prove" an opinion any more than I can. But if a thing requires resources to create and it isn't worth the effort, then it is a waste of those resources.

 

None of us can prove our opinions.  I used the brothel in the sexism comparison due to my experience with those who claimed it was sexist. So when the resource argument came up I admit, I jumped on it, namely because I see nothing added to DAI that makes resources a major concern, IMO. We have an entire pointless night time desert map which is a different location than the daytime desert map and I'm supposed to believe that a brothel was the resource killer?  I see nothing they added in place of anything they removed. (Other than two more VOs) They just keep removing resources.  No tactics, side quests VO and cut scenes, no surprise encounters, choices.  I'm trying to figure out where all these precious resources are to the point where a brothel was the thing that broke the bank.  

 

And if focusing on a brothel is too much for some then just replace brothel with deep roads or something.  It's all the same.

[In Exile]

And you chose to follow up on it by wrongly making the claim that I want the same content as in DAO/DA2 and that major resources should be allocated to it by comparing it to my major complaints of the game, which is lack of story content.

 

You bring up brothels as a negative change. You suggest Bioware should make changes from its previous titles, namely, DA:O and DA2 in this regard, and then specifically speak about changes made to brothels. And the inference to draw from that is, apparently, that you do not want brothels to appear in the same form as in DA:O or DA2, but in a totally different form that uses fewer resources? 

 

I compare it to your previous post to illustrate the non-sequitur. 

 

 

Prove they were a drain on resources.  Oh wait, you can't.  Anymore than I can prove they were removed due to sexism.  But I know the fan complaints about them were that they were sexist. And suddenly...by these same fans, they are suddenly a resource problem.   Perhaps you're not one of them, but I have argued with them on this issue before.  Their cries of sexism turning into a sudden care for game resources.  

 

I did prove that they cost resources. To quote Solas: "Is this a serious question?" They require VO. Do you deny that the brothel has VO? They cost cinematics-related resources. Do you deny that the brothels had cinematics? They require level design. Do you deny that the brothel is a level in the game?

 

The only possible point of contention is that you think that this is worthwhile content. To which, I said, I do not see this as adding to the verisimilitude of the world. This is quite different from some half-baked theory about "sexism", the only proof of which is the apparent removal of the brothel and the absence of desire demons. 

 

 

The brothels are only meaningless waste of content when unimaginative devs/writers can't do anything with them.  It's just a location, a setting that can be filled with a variety of characters and story lines.  It can also add to the background and look of a city.  I hate saying this, but look at Witcher 3, The high class brothel looked completely different from a low class establishment within a city.  Then you had the street walkers in the bad sections of town.  Even if the places won't have quests, it can still add atmosphere to a location. So yeah, saying that it wastes resources to the point of total deletion is just promoting world building laziness.

 

Ah, so we have the verisimilitude argument. Anything can add to the "background and look of a city", including an otherwise non-interactive house that has silent NPCs or NPCs with background dialogue. Why is a brothel something that offers this in preference to a nursery? 

 

Not to mention that I literally followed my post up with a second post discussing the possible value in a brothel. So, no, there's no real merit to this branch of your argument. In fact, I will quote it again: 

 

I should add that I'm not against brothels being in a game - you can have lots of cool quests with them. Deus Ex HR comes to mind as a place that both has a clear brothel and some great quests centered around it. But it's not a random place for pixelated sex, which is what the TW2 brothel amounted to being (haven't gotten far enough in TW3 to encounter a brothel if such a thing exists) and what the DA:O/DA2 brothels alluded toward. 

 

So, yes, in the context of some half-baked argument about brothels in the form of those found in DA:O and DA2 being removed for sexism, no, I don't think you've made a persuasive point. Those brothels were a waste of resources, and in an already resource-drained game like DA:I wasting precious VO and cinematics/animations and level design on them is illustrative of terrible judgment on the part of a developer. 

[HiroVoid]

If your location doesn't have prostitutes you're a lazy developer.

I'm glad you and Exile agree.

[In Exile]

In Exile can't "prove" an opinion any more than I can. But if a thing requires resources to create and the "thing" is bad and not worth the effort, then it is a waste of those resources.

 

And yeah, brothels could have made an appearance in DAI and been a creative use of resources by being the nexus of several different and interesting quests. But judging from how they were implemented in DAO and DA2, that wasn't going to be the case. They weren't being done well.

 

Honestly, DAI is not poorer for the lack of a brothel anymore than DA2 is poorer for the lack of a mechanic where your dog gets stronger by peeing on certain objects.

 

I think I see what you're saying. I did think DA:I took a step back in not allowing us to have the IB get a stat boost by peeing on a bunch of trees. 

 

... Horns up? 

 

On a more serious note, I do think that environmental reactivity in that way - i.e., each character interacting with the environment for a stat boost - is a cool idea. For example, an archer might get a bonus for completing the map (all the best sniper vantage points!). 

[thats1evildude]

Maybe Iron Bull should have gotten a stat boost from having sex with randomly-placed prostitutes.

[Gundar3]

I think an interesting route for Bioware to go with Desire demons is to use them sparingly, and have the encounters in DA4 occur at some point in the story where the main character should already be locked into a romance. Have the Desire Demon's appearance either be an idealized/overly sexualized male or female depending on the main character's romance flag. Spirits don't really have a gender anyway, and it would make sense for those demons to try and tempt the character with their own desires. 

 

If its a forever alone playthrough have the demon go more for lust for power or greed than carnal desire. 

 

That... Would be a really awesome scene and encounter.