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Feedback... be more like The Witcher 3


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#12426
Wolven_Soul

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At its heart, and despite being able to play it "pause to aim" (which, while supported, likely isn't at all intended) ME is an action oriented third person shooter, at least from ME2 onwards, just as TW is an action oriented 3rd person slasher... at least from TW2 onwards. I think it's a decent comparison, as they link up much more naturally than either one does with DA, which can be played from more than one perspective, in real time or not, ostensibly with strong emphasis on programmable tactics (in the case of the earlier games).

 

 

 

I am still going to disagree with that because again your shooting guns in one and swinging swords in another.  They are far to different action styles to really make a fair comparison between the two.


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#12427
Wolven_Soul

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But basketball and soccer are more similar than basketball and backgammon, and their respective merits are entirely subjective because they're all fairly different. Which is basically what I'm positing. And I think you're claiming TW3's combat wins hands down because it does things that DA does not, could not, and frankly, should not.

It's not important that one is a shooter, what's important that success in gameplay relies on the skill and reflexes (or lack thereof) of the player in ways that it doesn't in Dragon Age. And Dragon's Dogma is decidedly also an action game, so that comparison is just the same as comparing the witcher. It's like comparing BG2 to Ocarina of Time.

I'm curious whether you hold the same position on the previous DA games? Because your issues with DAI are even better represented there.

 

It is important that one is a shooter though.  The skill required to play it is less important because the action styles are just so different, thus the skills required to play it are different.  Being good in a shooter is not going to make you good at TW3's combat and vice versa.  In one your aiming a gun while ducking behind cover most of the time, occasionally tossing out a biotic.  In the other, your swinging a sword while dodging and rolling between the enemies while using your potions, bombs and signs in a strategic manner.  Action oriented or not, skill based or not, the styles are just way to different to make an accurate comparison.

 

Hmmm, methinks we're not gonna convince each other on this one.  :P


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#12428
panzerwzh

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Not matter RPG of shotgun or sword, for me motion captures behind it  are crucial to polish the world behind it.

 

From intensive sword fights to small personal details during PC interactions (I love certain fake red head's swinging legs and flirting eyes), the more motion captures involved the better! 

 

 


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#12429
DragonRageGT

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Not matter RPG of shotgun or sword, for me motion captures behind it  are crucial to polish the world behind it.

 *snip*

Pun intended? :P



#12430
panzerwzh

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Pun intended? :P

B) Don't tell anyone.



#12431
Hazegurl

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But basketball and soccer are more similar than basketball and backgammon, and their respective merits are entirely subjective because they're all fairly different. Which is basically what I'm positing. And I think you're claiming TW3's combat wins hands down because it does things that DA does not, could not, and frankly, should not.

 

IMO, It wins because it's better.  As it was pointed out in the other posts before this one, the swordplay is better, swords aren't treated as clubs you whack enemies with, and for all the reasons I stated before about the lack of movement.  I don't think the DA team can't do it, they just won't do it. They seem quite content to just keep on simplifying their combat system.  I get that you like it and think they should never change, but I would prefer they do.
 

It's not important that one is a shooter, what's important that success in gameplay relies on the skill and reflexes

 

Yes it does matter. As Wolven pointed out. Being good at one does not mean you'll be good at the other due to how different they are. I know people who are amazing at CoD  then get their butts handed to them in something like Devil May Cry which is all swordplay.  Sure there are some people who can play both very well, but not always.   But yeah, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

 

I'm curious whether you hold the same position on the previous DA games? Because your issues with DAI are even better represented there.

 

 

Yes.  I've never liked DA combat. DAO was too slow and awkward, DA2 was too flashy, like they were a bunch of circus performers with all the high flying leaps, and DAI was just ugh. I tried to control Cass when I first played the game and I immediately switched back to my Mage, and although I like the faster spell casting, the mages do the same fight animations over and over again.  I actually started to like the Venatori fight animations with the books cause I got sick of watching my IQ, Vivi, Solas, and Dorian twirl their staffs around.  But I will admit that it isn't a make it or break it thing for me.  What I did like about DA combat system were the tactics and numerous spells/skills to choose from.  But then they got rid of that so I was left with nothing at all to enjoy combat wise from DAI. 


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#12432
Youknow

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IMO, It wins because it's better.  As it was pointed out in the other posts before this one, the swordplay is better, swords aren't treated as clubs you whack enemies with, and for all the reasons I stated before about the lack of movement.  I don't think the DA team can't do it, they just won't do it. They seem quite content to just keep on simplifying their combat system.  I get that you like it and think they should never change, but I would prefer they do.

 

Honestly for DA's systems, I think the biggest issue is that it won't commit to something. I'm fine with Dragon Age become more of an action RPG, but it needs to stop trying to land right in the middle and be this weird super fast "tactical RPG." It's too fast to really stop and think, and in Origins, there are too many enemies flooding the screen at moments to really stop and think and the AI in the early game is way to bad to not be spamming a party member switch constantly. DA:Os for instance attacking is pretty much automatic while in Inquisition, it's this weird action sort of thing where I need to actually run up and attack them and consciously make use of combat rolls to avoid damage etc. It's weird, but it still doesn't have a dynamic enough of a system to be good, so what you get is a RPG where the player is expected to have decent enough reflexes, but it doesn't have enough moves to make it really interesting from an action perspective. I mean really, no BLOCK command in an action game? How about an actual dodge? Combat roll should not be something I need to learn as a skill considering how vital it is to effectively playing a warrior in Inquisition. And if they did, the combat system could be even better because it could be designed around certain attacks that you block, dodge or just plain don't be in the line of sight. The best part, is that with the class system, this could still be done well because people that wanted to have a more chill fighting style could just use archers or mages. 

 

After playing DA:Os again, I don't think the system is really simplified nearly as much as people claim. I think that a lot of things that were kinda just bad were removed in the first place. 

 

Sustained stances for instance? Good idea, horrible execution. Losing stamina/mana like that pretty much guarantees that unless the skill is SUPER good, like the difference between a shield stance and not having one on, or haste, chances are, the sustained skill wasn't going to be used. Not to mention, there's just SO MANY of them, and most of them don't have enough of a tangible bonus to use outside of your controlled character, because the AI can't make use of them without you specifically telling them to use it, and if you have a "Self: Any" with a stance, they'll immediately switch to the other one if it cancels out the other one meaning that you'll have to go back into the tactical menu to fix things up... AGAIN. It ends up adding something to the game that ends up being kinda annoying. Why have "Frost Weapons" as a sustained skill, but then something like Heroic Offense isn't? Weird, and playing with a ton of them on can make your character burn through their stamina/mana to hilariously awful degrees. 

 

What would have been a better idea with the sustained stances would have been to have different skill trees for them. Say a Momentum skill tree versus Twin Strikes with Momentum being a skill set based on pushing forward with offense-- ie, killing enemies makes you kill better, or attacking the same enemy without attacking others gets you bonuses versus Twin Strikes being an armor piercing style that debilitates enemies with each successful blow. So like if you switch to your Momentum stance, then your keyboard/control layout switches to those skills in that stance and vice versa. That way, it removes the artificial 8 moveset limit, brings back the stance system that people wanted and allows them to advance with the system they already have. And if you don't like the other stances? Don't learn them, master the stances you already know and learn advanced forms with them. Sort of like as a mage you could learn a little bit of each school of magic, or be really good at 1 or 2 schools. 


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#12433
FKA_Servo

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It is important that one is a shooter though.  The skill required to play it is less important because the action styles are just so different, thus the skills required to play it are different.  Being good in a shooter is not going to make you good at TW3's combat and vice versa.  In one your aiming a gun while ducking behind cover most of the time, occasionally tossing out a biotic.  In the other, your swinging a sword while dodging and rolling between the enemies while using your potions, bombs and signs in a strategic manner.  Action oriented or not, skill based or not, the styles are just way to different to make an accurate comparison.

 

Hmmm, methinks we're not gonna convince each other on this one.   :P

 

IMO, It wins because it's better.  As it was pointed out in the other posts before this one, the swordplay is better, swords aren't treated as clubs you whack enemies with, and for all the reasons I stated before about the lack of movement.  I don't think the DA team can't do it, they just won't do it. They seem quite content to just keep on simplifying their combat system.  I get that you like it and think they should never change, but I would prefer they do.
 

Yes it does matter. As Wolven pointed out. Being good at one does not mean you'll be good at the other due to how different they are. I know people who are amazing at CoD  then get their butts handed to them in something like Devil May Cry which is all swordplay.  Sure there are some people who can play both very well, but not always.   But yeah, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

 

Well, you mention simplification as a bad thing, but it seems to me like the endgame of simplification would be something more like the witcher. It's elegantly implemented, yes, but complicated it ain't. DAI still has limited tactics, it has various status ailments and cross class combo attacks to take advantage thereof, it has three distinct classes with nine distinct advance classes and many distinct subclasses. It's streamlined from its earlier iterations, sure, but it's anything but simplified. The witcher has five magic spells, a fast attack, a strong attack, and a single class. Yes, there's more to it, but not significantly more.

 

In any case, I wouldn't deny that they're different skill sets, but I think that's immaterial. What's important is the one-to-one relationship between a players input in real life versus the avatar's actions in the game, which is intrinsic to action gameplay, and which any given shooter has in common with the witcher and a million other games. This just isn't necessarily the case with DA and other games like it. I could have one arm with one finger, and I'd still be able to (literally) poke my way through DAI. I wouldn't be able to complete many shooters like that - or any of the witcher games, for that matter.

 

Thankfully, in my case, I have no disability preventing me from enjoying these games (and as I said, action games are my preference, if ever so slightly). But it's not something to discard lightly. Beyond that, the gameplay styles are just so different (not superior or inferior, just distinct), and plenty of people simply prefer party RPGs flat out. I can't imagine managing a party of companions with TW's system. It's wonderful when you're playing a single dude, and a single class, but I flat out don't think it's capable of managing a diverse group with that many skills.

 

We probably can't convince each other that the other is in the right, but I think what we can agree on is that TW3 is a gamechanger like Skyrim was a gamechanger. It's inevitably going to influence whatever Bioware comes up with next, and Bioware has a tendency to take precisely the wrong thing and run with it. I like fixed protagonists sometimes, and I like action games frequently but I feel very strongly that neither of those things should be Bioware's takeaway from the success of TW3 (which, if it's at all vague or unclear, I goddamn loved). I want them to know that the sentiment exists out here. Even if you prefer action games, there's still room for RTwP party based RPGs these days.


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#12434
panzerwzh

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My personal favourite FO4 review:

 

Bethesda should really focusing on open world sand box game for future.


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#12435
ashwind

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It is important that one is a shooter though.  The skill required to play it is less important because the action styles are just so different, thus the skills required to play it are different.  Being good in a shooter is not going to make you good at TW3's combat and vice versa.  In one your aiming a gun while ducking behind cover most of the time, occasionally tossing out a biotic.  In the other, your swinging a sword while dodging and rolling between the enemies while using your potions, bombs and signs in a strategic manner.  Action oriented or not, skill based or not, the styles are just way to different to make an accurate comparison.

 

Hmmm, methinks we're not gonna convince each other on this one.   :P

 

Skillsets required are pretty similar when it comes to ME2/3 I would say. I use a "Katana" and dodging and running around punching enemies - except I had a much bigger "grenade"

 

 

The infamous survive Object Rho battle insanity in Arrival DLC. Tis more action than shooting no?

 

*old video - soundless  :(

 

God I miss ME combat already - hope MEA will be as good and not watered down more than it did in ME3.... ME2 was really exciting.



#12436
ashwind

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My personal favourite FO4 review:

 

Bethesda should really focusing on open world sand box game for future.

 

The only part I disagree with him is that it is a good "Cinematic Action Game"... NO it is not! Not the cinematic part nor the Action part. It is mediocre. Enjoyable yes but it is just that. Just another "good" game - nothing special, nothing great. 

 

Miss the days when my Nerevarine can outright kill Vivec... because ... I dont the way he talks to me. 


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#12437
panzerwzh

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The only part I disagree with him is that it is a good "Cinematic Action Game"... NO it is not! Not the cinematic part nor the Action part. It is mediocre. Enjoyable yes but it is just that. Just another "good" game - nothing special, nothing great. 

 

Miss the days when my Nerevarine can outright kill Vivec... because ... I dont the way he talks to me. 

Oh Morrowind, the last "true RPG" from Bethesda. However, considering they attitude towards Skywind project, I don't think it will ever happen again. But luckily I have CDPR to expect now. 



#12438
ashwind

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Oh Morrowind, the last "true RPG" from Bethesda. However, considering they attitude towards Skywind project, I don't think it will ever happen again. But luckily I have CDPR to expect now. 

 

In Oblivion, they had this annoying fan and they love the idea so much that they put in A LOT of effort in ensuring that there will be an annoying NPC - which is immortal in Skyrim and now Fallout 4 that will taunt you everytime your character return to base. In Skyrim there was a brat so annoying that a mod needs to be created to get rid of her.

 

In Fallout 4, this capital 'B' who keeps taunting me when I walk by her and I cannot kill her! Bethesda has perfected the annoyance mechanics. With their pathetic new conversation design, now, when I was talking to another NPC and the stupid directional dialog wheel appears, the annoying NPC can waltz right between me and the NPC that I am having a conversation with and cancel the dialogue wheel + taunt me for no reason.

 

I have slain entire towns in Morrwind for lesser offences against my character  :angry:


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#12439
panzerwzh

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In Oblivion, they had this annoying fan and they love the idea so much that they put in A LOT of effort in ensuring that there will be an annoying NPC - which is immortal in Skyrim and now Fallout 4 that will taunt you everytime your character return to base. In Skyrim there was a brat so annoying that a mod needs to be created to get rid of her.

 

In Fallout 4, this capital 'B' who keeps taunting me when I walk by her and I cannot kill her! Bethesda has perfected the annoyance mechanics. With their pathetic new conversation design, now, when I was talking to another NPC and the stupid directional dialog wheel appears, the annoying NPC can waltz right between me and the NPC that I am having a conversation with and cancel the dialogue wheel + taunt me for no reason.

 

I have slain entire towns in Morrwind for lesser offences against my character  :angry:

Outlander!!



#12440
ashwind

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Outlander!!

 

LOL - no I am not that evil or so easily offended.  -_-

 

They would have to at least walk up to me and say "I am watching you Outlander"   :rolleyes:


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#12441
panzerwzh

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LOL - no I am not that evil or so easily offended.  -_-

 

They would have to at least walk up to me and say "I am watching you Outlander"   :rolleyes:

As an infamous dunmer, being call "N'wah" is a good enough trigger for "NPC punishment". :P



#12442
vbibbi

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My personal favourite FO4 review:

 

Bethesda should really focusing on open world sand box game for future.

I sure hope that's a yogurt stain on his shirt...



#12443
Akrabra

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My personal favourite FO4 review:

 

Bethesda should really focusing on open world sand box game for future.

Who gets to decide what an RPG is by the way? Is it you? Or some sweaty youtube reviewer? Fallout 4 has everything that Skyrim had and more and that was an RPG. But somehow this is an action game? Meh you are getting on my nerves Panzer. 


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#12444
FKA_Servo

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Who gets to decide what an RPG is by the way? Is it you? Or some sweaty youtube reviewer? Fallout 4 has everything that Skyrim had and more and that was an RPG. But somehow this is an action game? Meh you are getting on my nerves Panzer. 

 

And somehow TW3 isn't an action game, when one of the closest (and let's face it, one of the most flattering) comparisons many people draw is to Red Dead Redemption - emphatically not an RPG, by most estimates. Seems like often enough the only thing that two given RPGs have in common is branching dialogue or slightly varied endings. But even then, using those criteria eliminates more than a few very classic RPGs from the running. Mostly, I think it's "RPG=game I like."

 

Whether you're going by story or gameplay mechanics, it's a mostly meaningless descriptor, at this point, which I've made peace with. It's enough to know what I like.

 

I will say that folks are welcome to be a hipster about twenty year old games all they want. I played Fallout 2 and BG and such when I was 14, and they blew my tiny mind, but players who think all of that stuff has aged well  - especially BG - need to either play it again, or take off the rose colored binoculars. And Bethesda, in my estimation, have never taken a step backwards with any of their games. Fighting with Morrowind's awful Bethesdatm leveling system is something I have no desire to do ever again. That stuff is well lost.

 

Edit to add that good lord, the guy in that video embodies everything I hate about this youtube gamer zeitgeist. Sometimes, you just don't merit a platform. What an insufferable douche.


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#12445
panzerwzh

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One small comparision between true fallout (2) and Bethesda version fallout.

 

My favorite muty, who says green skin must be canon fodder without complexity?

 

And whats left in FO4.

 

I weep for super muties...

 

And how NPC reacts to player's character.

Normal version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-83bMUNaH90

 

Low intelligence  version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf0M1E0yxAU

 

Now, I weep for FO...

 

I missed the time when in FO4 NPC react to player's gender, skill set up, hell even armor/cloth you equipped. 



#12446
FKA_Servo

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Now, I weep for FO...

 

Thankfully, Fallout 2 hasn't actually gone anywhere, and your good chums at GOG have even optimized it for modern systems. You can still play it over and over again until you die of old age or smugness, whichever comes first.



#12447
panzerwzh

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Thankfully, Fallout 2 hasn't actually gone anywhere, and your good chums at GOG have even optimized it for modern systems. You can still play it over and over again until you die of old age or smugness, whichever comes first.

OMFG, FO2 hasn't gone anywhere? Then why would FO3 come out and Bethesda tries to cash in wasteland over and over again?

But, it is OK, self entitlement is pretty much modern society is all about.



#12448
Akrabra

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OMFG, FO2 hasn't gone anywhere? Then why would FO3 come out and Bethesda tries to cash in wasteland over and over again?

But, it is OK, self entitlement is pretty much modern society is all about.

Says the biased CDRP/TW3 fan that hangs out on a Bioware forum most of the day and tries to talk crap about other games? Bethesda bought the IP, get over it. And the worst thing is you bought Fallout 4. If you don't support their way of doing Fallout, then why oh why would you buy it? Just to get the right to complain?


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#12449
FKA_Servo

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OMFG, FO2 hasn't gone anywhere? Then why would FO3 come out and Bethesda tries to cash in wasteland over and over again?

But, it is OK, self entitlement is pretty much modern society is all about.

 

But you can install and play Fallout 2 right now.

 

Hipster confirmed, at any rate.



#12450
TmTapani

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I will say that folks are welcome to be a hipster about twenty year old games all they want. I played Fallout 2 and BG and such when I was 14, and they blew my tiny mind, but players who think all of that stuff has aged well  - especially BG - need to either play it again, or take off the rose colored binoculars.

 Eh? I just stopped playing BG 1 a few minutes ago to take a small break. Last played Fallout 1 the day before FO4 launched to deal with the hype. The games have aged extremely well considering how old they are. Ten years from now they will still be the same, and the Baldur's Gate series (with Icewind Dale) and PS:T are still my favorite Bioware games. Icewind Dale 2 however has aged horribly in comparison but then again it was pretty horrible already when it launched.


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