15887 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nah. Considering how far into the game that fight is he's only a scrub. Plus even with a tutorial or lengthy manual there's no guarantee that everyone would bother to play the tutorial, and read the manual.

But then the fault lies with them.

[In Exile]

Did anyone even bother to listen to Yennefer's dialogue in that sequence? First she teases him by summoning a crab, and then she orders Geralt to leave and help Ciri, and even if you go to her and ask to stick around she still gives you the cold shoulder and asks you to leave again. She is in control, but she's naked so somehow it doesn't work, whereas in many other games, they have their clothes on but you can order/force them to do anything you want (Pretty much any female you come across in GTA, some DA characters, etc).

 

The response is that there's no purpose for her nudity to be shown in the way that it is shown in the scene. The idea behind the scene is not a bad one - they want to show how she uses her sexuality to (effectively) control Geralt (hence why there's no frontal nudity and she's wearing lingerie when he speaks to her) - but the initial parts of the scene (the ass shots) undercut that and are a camera aimed from the players POV moreso than Geralt. That's where the scene doesn't work. Which is, like I said, different from the Kiera Metz scene, which has a clearer narrative purpose. She teases Geralt in the same way after the prologue, but with a lot more edge to it. That's in character. 

 

And, like I said, it's a bit of an issue where every woman is defined through the lens of her sexuality and attractiveness. But that's a more meta criticism, not one tied with sexualization (objectification isn't the right term here). 

[Seraphim24]

I don't play them as hybrid games. I play DAI pretty much exactly as I played DAO. I played DA2 pretty much exactly as I played KotOR (the lack of tactical camera makes them quite similar).

The way I play them, there is no action combat in these games. There's no hybrid aspect unless you want there to be.

 

Yeah.. like I said... don't know what to tell you, TW series isn't the best but it's better than the slogginess of DA (although DA:O was decent).

[Seraphim24]

The response is that there's no purpose for her nudity to be shown in the way that it is shown in the scene. The idea behind the scene is not a bad one - they want to show how she uses her sexuality to (effectively) control Geralt (hence why there's no frontal nudity and she's wearing lingerie when he speaks to her) - but the initial parts of the scene (the ass shots) undercut that and are a camera aimed from the players POV moreso than Geralt. That's where the scene doesn't work. Which is, like I said, different from the Kiera Metz scene, which has a clearer narrative purpose. She teases Geralt in the same way after the prologue, but with a lot more edge to it. That's in character. 

 

And, like I said, it's a bit of an issue where every woman is defined through the lens of her sexuality and attractiveness. But that's a more meta criticism, not one tied with sexualization (objectification isn't the right term here). 

 

Yeah, isn't that great? Every female and male in the universe is defined through the lens of their sexuality and attractiveness, don't vent on The Witcher for reflecting reality, that's actually why people embrace The Witcher, it reflects real desires and sentiments.

 

Narrative purpose is not this abstract thing, it should have a relatable human base.

 

Besides it's all her character one way or another, there's no bifurcating her actions into "good" and "bad" elements, you gotta take the whole thing in one go.

[In Exile]

Yeah, isn't that great? Every female and male in the universe is defined through the lens of their sexuality and attractiveness, don't vent on The Witcher for reflecting reality, that's actually why people embrace The Witcher, it reflects real desires and sentiments.

 

Narrative purpose is not this abstract thing, it should have a relatable human base.

 

Besides it's all her character one way or another, there's no bifurcating her actions into "good" and "bad" elements, you gotta take the whole thing in one go.

 

The bold is just not true. The best example being, of course, the Nilfgaard commander from the prologue. Or good ol' uncle Vesamir. Or Emyr, at least on your first meeting. We don't meet Emyr while he's naked, having nubile slaves oil his body up and staring at his glorious erection (maybe with a quip about whether circumcision is common in Nilgaard). That would be the sexualization of a male character. 

 

Like I said: there's a separation here between an individual character and the pattern established by every notable woman in the MQs besides, at least so far in Velen, Ciri. 

[Seraphim24]

The bold is just not true. The best example being, of course, the Nilfgaard commander from the prologue. Or good ol' uncle Vesamir. Or Emyr, at least on your first meeting. We don't meet Emyr while he's naked, having nubile slaves oil his body up and starting at his glorious erection. That would be the sexualization of a male character. 

 

Like I said: there's a separation here between an individual character and the pattern established by every notable woman in the MQs besides, at least so far in Velen, Ciri. 

 

Sure it is, attractiveness and intellect, is there anything in the world that doesn't involve people's desire or interest in one or the other?

 

Perhaps you mean "conventional attractiveness?" Look, Vesamir is decently handsome, or at least, you know he would of been when he was younger, which is kind of what counts the most, so you get interested in him, as well as with his skills as a Witcher. The same with Emyr, no one wants to see a 60 year old guy doing what you suggested, but you know he was at least somewhat of a desirable guy at one point in time, and that is part (along with his political acumen, etc) of what gives him power and interest as a character.

 

Yennefer is obviously pretty attractive but also she is younger so the game is like screw it lets go with it. The same for Geralt although he is kind of roughed up with the scars and honestly I don't know how old he is, he is completely naked in the start, same as Yen, they both are, which is identical to what happened at the start of W2 (and which didn't stop the reviewers then from ****** to it in all honesty).

 

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill, the camera lingers on her butt for 1 second more than would be otherwise necessary to establish Yen's presence and character or something (which is probably debatable anyway) so it's jumped on but again the graphic sexual porn/violent chaos of DA:I is just kind breezed over and all the agency/empowering aspects of the characters in the TW series are sort of thrown under the bus.

 

That's not a double standard, that's a double strength double standard.

 

Edit: See on the BSN a casual term for masturbation (which starts with F) is censored, but "violent religious crusade with excess decaptiation and butchering non-religious humans and drinking their bodily fluids" is not. Zero sense... ZERO SENSE.

[slimgrin]

--50 minute video-- If the game is properly documented, or has an adequate tutorial, "noob" mistakes don't happen.

 

 If he knew the right oils to drain Letho's health or the right potion buffs, and most importantly, if he'd bothered to get a powerful sword, that fight would have been manageable. He ignored the game's systems, and so he got an hour of misery. Hell, he could have even cheesed it with aard and light attack, but he didn't even figure that out.

[Elhanan]

If he knew the right oils to drain Letho's health or the right potion buffs, and most importantly, if he'd bothered to get a powerful sword, that fight would have been manageable. He ignored the game's systems, and so he got an hour of misery. Hell, he could have even cheesed it with aard and light attack, but he didn't even figure that out.

The idea is for a Blind playthrough; replicates the experience of a first time Player, and not one that has experience. This shows the strengths and weaknesses of a game's design. Also notice the mention of the interference created by frequent cut-scenes.

[TheOgre]

They.. tell you how to do it though.. They give you all the tools including actual tutorial...

[Elhanan]

They.. tell you how to do it though.. They give you all the tools including actual tutorial...

If you watch Gopher, he tends to skip tutorials and manuals; the opposite of what he recommends. Believe it is for the added humor of discovery.

[MiyoKit]

<snip>

 

I don't think you quite get what I, and In Exile, are talking about. While we have a difference of opinion on Kiera Metz, it is not the actual presence of nudity in the game that was up for discussion, it was instead whether or not it was a 'natural' thing. Ergo - was it shoved into the plot for titillation, or did it support the atmosphere of the story / the purpose of the character. For me, it felt so strange to have it there, where (again for me) it added nothing more than a sense of uncomfortable leering for leering's sake.

 

@ In Exile

 

I don't mind female characters using their 'assets' to manipulate, and a femme fatale type character would be appealing in a DA universe, I have just found that so far its been pretty heavily hamfisted in W3. I hope it gets better and the female characters stop being such charicatures.

       As for the Bloody Baron, I felt sorry for him to begin with, his plight of losing his loved ones. I bonded with him at the start, which made learning about what he'd done and who he was hard to swallow. That is what I meant by complexity, for me his character changed irredemably from what I thought the more I got to know. That is an example of good writing, and no ass shots were required to hold my attention!

[Morty Smith]

I don't play them as hybrid games. I play DAI pretty much exactly as I played DAO. I played DA2 pretty much exactly as I played KotOR (the lack of tactical camera makes them quite similar).

The way I play them, there is no action combat in these games. There's no hybrid aspect unless you want there to be.

 

How do you climb a ladder or jump in non-hybrid mode?

[slimgrin]

If you watch Gopher, he tends to skip tutorials and manuals; the opposite of what he recommends. Believe it is for the added humor of discovery.

The cut scenes are a legit complaint. He's not off base there. But every other hard time he has is because he didn't study the glossary and alchemy system. You can literally b*tch slap Letho on Dark with the right oils and sword. Look at POE or DOS. Those games don't hold your hand either, both are quite uncompromising old school systems.

[Greetsme]

Anyone posted this up yet?

 

http://www.giantbomb...r-3-1772275/#84

 

If so I apologize.

[Zinho73]

The response is that there's no purpose for her nudity to be shown in the way that it is shown in the scene. The idea behind the scene is not a bad one - they want to show how she uses her sexuality to (effectively) control Geralt (hence why there's no frontal nudity and she's wearing lingerie when he speaks to her) - but the initial parts of the scene (the ass shots) undercut that and are a camera aimed from the players POV moreso than Geralt. That's where the scene doesn't work. Which is, like I said, different from the Kiera Metz scene, which has a clearer narrative purpose. She teases Geralt in the same way after the prologue, but with a lot more edge to it. That's in character. 

 

And, like I said, it's a bit of an issue where every woman is defined through the lens of her sexuality and attractiveness. But that's a more meta criticism, not one tied with sexualization (objectification isn't the right term here). 

But if you do not show her naked you do not play with the viewer expectation.

[Aren]

If you hope for a life without profanity stinging your pure ears, you're bound to be disappointed. People swear, men on the battlefield facing death everyday and/or living hard lives tend to do it more. It's a way for human beings to vent their frustration.

Unless you are living on a cloister blessed by the will of the Maker, ah Leliana good times when you was more happy and less frustrated.

[Ashelsu]

Gopher has his blind playthrough on the hard (which was the highest difficulty before EE, I believe). It was his choice. He goes to tough fights unprepared. (Endrega Queens were also a challenge to him. I killed them using traps and bombs, for example.)

 

Anyway, would not be Gopher's Witcher 3 videos more relevant to this topic?

 

Also, Geralt and Yennefer are lovers. Sometimes people dream about their lovers. Sometimes in these dreams their lovers are naked. Sometimes the dream is just a dream.

[Sylvius the Mad]

How do you climb a ladder or jump in non-hybrid mode?

I don't understand why you're asking about ladders. They work just like looting. You can even use them from the Tac Cam.

Jumping is annoying, because it's not possible to jump effectively without simultaneously using the real-time movement commands. But there's also no time pressures on jumping - you never need to jump in combat, or in timed puzzles - so that's as much an action element as WASD movement is. And WASD movement isn't, in and of itself, an action element. No one thinks Wizardry 8 had action elements, and it used WASD movement.

[Zinho73]

And so the locked keybinding complaint is moot. Programming 101 and all that.

 

I am wondering, what approach to patching do you people prefer?

 

A big package once a month (Bioware) or frequent small packages every now and then (CD Projekt)?

I prefer when devs prioritize the major things the community wants as soon as possible. CD project released an stability patch right away, followed by the keybinding much more quickly than Bioware could make DAI stable (at least for me, it is very hard to quantify this stuff, I odn't know how many people were having problems with the game - it seemed a lot given the amount of outcry on the internet, but we can never tell). Bundling things together is only practical for the developer, but does not help the player.

 

The ideal is having the game working at launch, since this is not doable, the more quick you can fix things, the more respectful to my money and time investment you are.

[Zinho73]

I don't think you quite get what I, and In Exile, are talking about. While we have a difference of opinion on Kiera Metz, it is not the actual presence of nudity in the game that was up for discussion, it was instead whether or not it was a 'natural' thing. Ergo - was it shoved into the plot for titillation, or did it support the atmosphere of the story / the purpose of the character. For me, it felt so strange to have it there, where (again for me) it added nothing more than a sense of uncomfortable leering for leering's sake.

 

@ In Exile

 

I don't mind female characters using their 'assets' to manipulate, and a femme fatale type character would be appealing in a DA universe, I have just found that so far its been pretty heavily hamfisted in W3. I hope it gets better and the female characters stop being such charicatures.

       As for the Bloody Baron, I felt sorry for him to begin with, his plight of losing his loved ones. I bonded with him at the start, which made learning about what he'd done and who he was hard to swallow. That is what I meant by complexity, for me his character changed irredemably from what I thought the more I got to know. That is an example of good writing, and no ass shots were required to hold my attention!

Sex and sexy women are a theme in The Witcher world, in various levels, as they are not as interested to be political correct but more in playing around the theme, sometimes being blunt, sometimes inferring misogyny in some characters or situations, sometimes going for the cheap shot just to empower the woman in the next scene.

 

I prefer that approach. It is good to watch a movie and play an adult game and not be comfortable all the time. I loved the ass shot of Yeneffer in the beginning. It teases the players into thinking he is gonna have one thing, just to Yeniffer tell us (Geralt) that SHE is the one calling the shots. Men, Women, young and old will have different reactions to the same scene and like it a lot.

 

I guess we should really be worried about a political correct portrayal of something (or tasteful portrayal) in formative media (open TV, children books, magazines and so on), otherwise we are limiting art and expression.

 

All that said, I wholeheartedly agree that many nude stuff in The Witcher series are not necessary to carry the plot or even the scene, they are there just to be provocative, exciting (as far as pixel boobs can be exciting I guess) and sometimes just in jest. I love it, but I can understand if you want a less juvenile approach. But I like juvenile in TW games, I think it makes a cool contrast with all the bleak stuff.

[Saphiron123]

People do lots of things every day; many of them do not improve anything or anyone, and some of them are hurtful. Simply because many do it does not equate it to being correct or acceptable. As I mentioned before, those who do so in business or in the military to superiors open themselves to discipline and repercussions.

http://smallbusiness...cmp=sbcfeatures

If it were removed from games, I doubt many would miss it. At least, that is my hope....

If you purge all the violence, all the negative aspects of people, all the conflict, you're left with nothing but a Saturday morning television show. I don't think highly of people who curse constantly, but I'm not trying to avoid it. It's just people being people.

Give me a realistic world, with real, flawed characters over some fake idealistic one where nobody bleeds in a fight or has anything real to say any day. You don't address racism or bigotry the way inquisition did, where suddenly everyone's just cool and whole religions change to accommodate the minority like in the case of the Qun. You do it the way they did with DAO, showing it frankly and not flinching about the plight faced by certain characters, or better yet, letting the player experience it first hand.

In DAO my city elf was treated like a bug by humans, you could experience a taste of what his life was like. In DAI my dalish elf gets a few lines of extra dialogue and not a single actual story moment about his past or how he's experienced human rule.

DAI is becoming this idealized society where there's no actual conflict and the villains are of the mwahahaha variety. It shouldn't be so black and white. It's not believable.

I mean everyone seems to like Krem, but nobody points out what a sellout it was to take the challenges Krem would face choosing to live as a man, which could have been an amazing and deep story about personal hardship, and replace that tale with a made up word and blind acceptance by the most rigid and fanatical religion in thedas. It could have told us about the character and made his life a real struggle hiding it from the Qunari and really made that character resonate instead of simply preaching to us the way Gaider does about acceptance. But no, no struggle, the Qunari are just cool with it and everything is happy.

As with so many things in DAI, they took the shortest and most sanitized route, and the narrative suffered.

[Saphiron123]

Here is the Gopher TW2 Rage vid I mentioned, though again; am uncertain if TW3 combat is close to this:

https://www.youtube....h?v=m6IeKuADNcM

This guy didn't even bother to learn how to fight... No alchemy, crappy sword. This video would be the equivelent of me taking my level 8 party with only basic gear and spells against the first dragon in DAI and getting frustrated when it kicked my ass.

The witcher 2 combat isn't perfect, but the scale and story are fantastic. And witcher 3 surpasses it especially in gameplay.

DAI falls short compared to past titles. The witcher improves with time. I love the world of da more, but I'm more excited about the witcher atm.

The guy who made this video is terrible though. Yes, some games require actual thought and learning, and if he can't handle this I'd love to see him take on lud and zallen in dark souls 2 crown of the ivory king, lol.

[In Exile]

Sex and sexy women are a theme in The Witcher world, in various levels, as they are not as interested to be political correct but more in playing around the theme, sometimes being blunt, sometimes inferring misogyny in some characters or situations, sometimes going for the cheap shot just to empower the woman in the next scene.

I prefer that approach. It is good to watch a movie and play an adult game and not be comfortable all the time. I loved the ass shot of Yeneffer in the beginning. It teases the players into thinking he is gonna have one thing, just to Yeniffer tell us (Geralt) that SHE is the one calling the shots. Men, Women, young and old will have different reactions to the same scene and like it a lot.

I guess we should really be worried about a political correct portrayal of something (or tasteful portrayal) in formative media (open TV, children books, magazines and so on), otherwise we are limiting art and expression.

All that said, I wholeheartedly agree that many nude stuff in The Witcher series are not necessary to carry the plot or even the scene, they are there just to be provocative, exciting (as far as pixel boobs can be exciting I guess) and sometimes just in jest. I love it, but I can understand if you want a less juvenile approach. But I like juvenile in TW games, I think it makes a cool contrast with all the bleak stuff.

Put another way, the Bloody Baron arc is incredibly "politically correct".

You're missing something very important here. There's no issue with a story that takes sexism and misogyny seriously, in my view, even where (or especially where) it does this by portraying the realistic harm and horror of that experience. To use an example - and with the caveat that I have not yet entirely finished the quest - I do not think the Bloody Baron quest line tackles the question it tackles in a disrespectful way:

Spoiler

The Baron is at no point portrayed as in the right for what he does or how he acts. His drunkenness is not played up for laughs or minimised in its harm. The wonderful barn scene - where he terrifies the town and almost burns a stableboy alive along with the horses - shows what harm drunkenness and alcoholism does to everyone. Its not gendered. It realistically portrays the excuses an abuser would use. It shows - when we get to the family that tried to help Anna escape - the important role even the most powerless can play in stopping abuse. It - ignoring the whole fantasy magical monsters angle - portrays Anna as an active agent in her own life (because she flees from her abuser). This is - in my view - doing the vicious misogyny of the setting justice. There's no titillating in the plot (again, as far as I got, which is just after Geralt can create a lubberkin (sp?) and finds that Anna was dragged away).

The Yennefer scene is a powerful contrast to the Bloody Baron arc. I do not object (except on a meta level) with Yennefer (as another poster put it) being a femme fatale. But this isn't some non "politically correct" way of portraying gender dynamics of misogyny. It's not "in setting" misogyny. It is an issue from the IRL perspective - Yennefer, even in the context of the character arc - doesnt need to be portrayed as she is to make the scene work re: her sexuality.

Let me give an example. They could have had Geralt spread out on a bed stroking himself - with the scene going on for a few solid seconds, with him erotically spreading lube - before the crab bites him. The narrative intent is the same. Only in this case Geralt would be the one sexualised not for the scene (him stroking himself adds nothing) but for the viewing pleasure of the audience.

This is where the objection comes in with the Yen ass shot. And it's contrasted in the same scene IMO with the excellently done flirting, when Geralt wants to get in his pants and she playfully teases him to get Ciri. She's in lingerie; nudity wouldn't add to that scene (IMO it would detract).

[Sartoz]

The response is that there's no purpose for her nudity to be shown in the way that it is shown in the scene. The idea behind the scene is not a bad one - they want to show how she uses her sexuality to (effectively) control Geralt (hence why there's no frontal nudity and she's wearing lingerie when he speaks to her) - but the initial parts of the scene (the ass shots) undercut that and are a camera aimed from the players POV moreso than Geralt. That's where the scene doesn't work. Which is, like I said, different from the Kiera Metz scene, which has a clearer narrative purpose. She teases Geralt in the same way after the prologue, but with a lot more edge to it. That's in character. 

 

And, like I said, it's a bit of an issue where every woman is defined through the lens of her sexuality and attractiveness. But that's a more meta criticism, not one tied with sexualization (objectification isn't the right term here). 

 

                                                                                  <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

 

Aren't you guys overthinking this? 

 

It's a bloody dream that turns into a nightmare for Geralt.   Dreams can't really be controlled.  Analyzing the scene between Gerald and Yen is pointless ,IMO. Any nudity issues is in the eye of the beholder and nothing more. Besides, Project Red doesn't give two farts about invented issues by players with a stick up their posterior.  The nude scene is probably an early attention grabber, because it's all you get unless you specifically go looking for more.

 

The dream sequence is a good idea as a Tutorial intro, though.

[Zinho73]

Put another way, the Bloody Baron arc is incredibly "politically correct".

You're missing something very important here. There's no issue with a story that takes sexism and misogyny seriously, in my view, even where (or especially where) it does this by portraying the realistic harm and horror of that experience. To use an example - and with the caveat that I have not yet entirely finished the quest - I do not think the Bloody Baron quest line tackles the question it tackles in a disrespectful way:

Spoiler

The Baron is at no point portrayed as in the right for what he does or how he acts. His drunkenness is not played up for laughs or minimised in its harm. The wonderful barn scene - where he terrifies the town and almost burns a stableboy alive along with the horses - shows what harm drunkenness and alcoholism does to everyone. Its not gendered. It realistically portrays the excuses an abuser would use. It shows - when we get to the family that tried to help Anna escape - the important role even the most powerless can play in stopping abuse. It - ignoring the whole fantasy magical monsters angle - portrays Anna as an active agent in her own life (because she flees from her abuser). This is - in my view - doing the vicious misogyny of the setting justice. There's no titillating in the plot (again, as far as I got, which is just after Geralt can create a lubberkin (sp?) and finds that Anna was dragged away).

The Yennefer scene is a powerful contrast to the Bloody Baron arc. I do not object (except on a meta level) with Yennefer (as another poster put it) being a femme fatale. But this isn't some non "politically correct" way of portraying gender dynamics of misogyny. It's not "in setting" misogyny. It is an issue from the IRL perspective - Yennefer, even in the context of the character arc - doesnt need to be portrayed as she is to make the scene work re: her sexuality.

Let me give an example. They could have had Geralt spread out on a bed stroking himself - with the scene going on for a few solid seconds, with him erotically spreading lube - before the crab bites him. The narrative intent is the same. Only in this case Geralt would be the one sexualised not for the scene (him stroking himself adds nothing) but for the viewing pleasure of the audience.

This is where the objection comes in with the Yen ass shot. And it's contrasted in the same scene IMO with the excellently done flirting, when Geralt wants to get in his pants and she playfully teases him to get Ciri. She's in lingerie; nudity wouldn't add to that scene (IMO it would detract).

I wrote a lot just to contextualize, I am not saying that people are defending Political Correctness, but what I said also applies to the contextual use of nudity, or the "appropriate" use of it.

 

My point 1: Sometimes an ass shot is just an ass shot and it is there to show the ass and not to contribute to scene. That's juvenile and I am ok with that (in some cases). 

 

My point 2: BUT, the Yeneffer scene is way more interesting with her nudity, because it provokes the player and takes it away in the following dialogue. I just imagine a bunch of teens rolling their eyes in frustration. "What? C,mon, nothing more is going to happen?". It just adds to the fun element to me. It is clear for the crab beginning that they weren't playing the scene seriously anyway.

 

The scene is a tease and with the nudity, the tease is fully played out. The more you give, the greater is the impact when you take it away.

 

Geralt stroking himself AFTER the scene, though, would have been genius.