15890 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

Aren't you guys overthinking this?

It's a bloody dream that turns into a nightmare for Geralt. Dreams can't really be controlled. Analyzing the scene between Gerald and Yen is pointless ,IMO. Any nudity issues is in the eye of the beholder and nothing more. Besides, Project Red doesn't give two farts about invented issues by players with a stick up their posterior. The nude scene is probably an early attention grabber, because it's all you get unless you specifically go looking for more.

The dream sequence is a good idea as a Tutorial intro, though.

We aren't talking about "just" a dream. As you point out, this is the establishing shot for the game and the introduction proper to Yennefer as a person (we first see her as a badass witch escaping from a warring set of armies in the cinematic).

The scene is not - more to the point - an actual dream. It's a delicately hand crafted scene.

More importantly, it's not right to call it a nude scene. It's really not. An ass shot isn't a nude scene - and that one shot aside - CDPR is quite careful *not* to show Yen's body. That's what makes the scene a bit inconsistent. It's not meant to be titillating. It's mean to establish the power dynamic between Yen and Geralt (we see it again when the two reunite). That particular shot is completely OOC. The counter argument here is that Yen does it purposely to tease Geralt (because she quite rapidly cover herself). This is why I like the lingerie scene so much. But I don't think the way the shot is done worka to set that up because it's not portraying *Geralt* in the scene. Let me contrast this with a scene that does do what I'm talking about (use sexualised content well from a narrative perspective).

Let's use a different example here: the scene with Kiera Metz. That's one where nudity is essential. It's tastefully done and it's in a venue controlled by Keira to set up her planned seduction of Geralt. In my view, censoring that scene improperly distances the player from Geralt's POV - where we're meant to view Kiera through a sexualised lens (since that's how she wants to portray herself).

I'm a bit dismayed by the anti-intellectual attitude more than anything, to be honest.

[Seraphim24]

I don't think you quite get what I, and In Exile, are talking about. While we have a difference of opinion on Kiera Metz, it is not the actual presence of nudity in the game that was up for discussion, it was instead whether or not it was a 'natural' thing. Ergo - was it shoved into the plot for titillation, or did it support the atmosphere of the story / the purpose of the character. For me, it felt so strange to have it there, where (again for me) it added nothing more than a sense of uncomfortable leering for leering's sake.

 

@ In Exile

 

I don't mind female characters using their 'assets' to manipulate, and a femme fatale type character would be appealing in a DA universe, I have just found that so far its been pretty heavily hamfisted in W3. I hope it gets better and the female characters stop being such charicatures.

       As for the Bloody Baron, I felt sorry for him to begin with, his plight of losing his loved ones. I bonded with him at the start, which made learning about what he'd done and who he was hard to swallow. That is what I meant by complexity, for me his character changed irredemably from what I thought the more I got to know. That is an example of good writing, and no ass shots were required to hold my attention!

 

I don't think you and Exile get quite what me and Tisen are talking about, the issue is that you both are fixating ad nauseum on the possibility that this single instance of titillation not plot development is coming at the expense of I don't know every single other game ever made in the history of the universe, past present and future?

 

I mean good god I already stated multiple times how this is a DA vs TW comparison, and in DA you get full blasts of nudity and graphic sex which frankly is disgusting compared to a mere "butt shot" that lingers for 1 second. Not to mention it's a plot that features lunatic genocidal religious maniacs, viewed from a slightly different of view.

 

That's not "titillation," thats full blown pornography. Not to mention it's wildly out of context considering the nature of the characters and their respective empowerment as discussed many times (The Lodge sorceresses, Ciri, etc).

 

Have you or Exile ever once in all this litany of material bothered to critique DA for one nanosecond? Nope.

 

That's why it's impossible to take either of your opinions too seriously.

[Steelcan]

This is actually a really informative discussion.
 
You seriously don't need to use a sword, right from the start of the game?
 
Is timing ever relevant?  How do you manage range?  How quickly do you need to make decisions?
 
A good combat speed for me is turn-based.  Ideally, I want the game to wait for me while I decide what to do.  Since that's obviously not going to happen in a game with action combat, how much time do I have to make decisions?

missed this post,

You start out with a few basic potions, signs, and I think one bomb design, timing is very relevant, particularly when dodging, counter attacking, using signs, or a crossbow.

My usual strategy for archers or ranged monsters is the Axii sign to confuse them and then a bomb if they are clustered with other enemies, otherwise I try and close the distance.

You can slow down combat at any time by pulling up the radial menu that has your signs and bombs in it.

[Seraphim24]

missed this post,

You start out with a few basic potions, signs, and I think one bomb design, timing is very relevant, particularly when dodging, counter attacking, using signs, or a crossbow.

My usual strategy for archers or ranged monsters is the Axii sign to confuse them and then a bomb if they are clustered with other enemies, otherwise I try and close the distance.

You can slow down combat at any time by pulling up the radial menu that has your signs and bombs in it.

 

DA is a bunch of stats that boil down into X tank ability, Y heal ability, Z damage ability. It's literally WoW, it's all automated, you don't need to think or manage the statistics because it's just one variable. The only factors are CC and that vanished after DA:O.

 

W3 you have to use at least some reflexes and timing and strategy, as messy as it gets, at least it exists.

[Steelcan]

I'm not going to say that TW3 is a tactics based game as its not, but it does make much more extensive use of enemy variety not just in aesthetics but also in vulnerabilities to exploit and preparation needed. Going up against a group of any sort of necrophage without Quen and ideally necrophage oil and a strong bomb isn't going to end well, unless you want to play Rolling Simulation 2015

Compare that to fighting a mage, where staying at a distance isn't ideal, but quickly closing present certain risks.

The gameplay may not be to everyone's taste, but I think that given its much stronger focus on using all of your tools available, as well as the environment, and preparation puts it a bit ahead of most action games

[In Exile]

I don't think you and Exile get quite what me and Tisen are talking about, the issue is that you both are fixating ad nauseum on the possibility that this single instance of titillation not plot development is coming at the expense of I don't know every single other game ever made in the history of the universe, past present and future?

I mean good god I already stated multiple times how this is a DA vs TW comparison, and in DA you get full blasts of nudity and graphic sex which frankly is disgusting compared to a mere "butt shot" that lingers for 1 second. Not to mention it's a plot that features lunatic genocidal religious maniacs, viewed from a slightly different of view.

That's not "titillation," thats full blown pornography.

Have you or Exile ever once in all this litany of material bothered to critique DA for one nanosecond? Nope.

That's why it's impossible to take either of your opinions seriously, in fact, I can barely understand where they're coming from at all to be quite honest.

I'm not sure how to respond to this rant either. I took up what I thought was an interesting side discussion about a really well done cinematic introductory sequence to illustrate how a game can be (1) entirely consistent in-setting when it comes to gender portrayals (and so it would be wrong to say it's showing anything mysoginistic in-setting); (2) that in-setting mysoginistic content should be done - and HAS been done phenomenally well in TW3 (you'll notice I just wanted to talk about the Bloody Baron scene) and (3) praising CDPR and TW3 for (1) and (2) is not inconsistent with taking issue with some portrayals that are problematic at a meta-level because of how little variety there is in female archetypes.

I - at least - haven't made a big deal about the Yen scene. You'll notice I wanted to talk about the Bloody Baron. So I'm not sure why you want to deflect this as nitpicking.

There's an important point here: there's a difference between well-done setting consistent portrayals of mysoginistic content (the exceptionally well done bloody baron quest line) and superficial titillating content that actually undercuts what would otherwise be a powerful scene.

It seems, however, that it was a vain hope to think I could add some semblance of rigour to the discussion. So consider that you've won the Internets (including all of the tubes that carry it) and I will leave this topic alone.

[Hazegurl]

No Cassandra in your list? She's kind of similar to Roche, in a way.

 

I can see what you mean by Solas being your mentor. It started out the same way for me, so I can imagine.

 

What did you do with Cole in his personal quest? It took me so long to decide, I'm curious about your reasoning.

 

 

Cass is okay but not my favorite. Other than the novel quest I didn't really see much about her I liked.

 

I like leaving Cole a spirit.  I think Varric didn't really know what he was talking about.  I also don't like the idea of the world losing it's magic and becoming more mundane so I believed that making Cole human would be another small piece in driving the magic out of the world in a way. 
And also, Peaceful compassionate spirit > Vengeful human.

 

As for the companions.  I like DA companions but I like the way it was done in ME and TW.  I'll also throw in DA2. I think these games did a much better job of establishing the companions as not only friends of the PC but also friends with each other.  I felt like Hawke, Geralt, and Shepard could knock back a few beers and relax on the regular with their group of friends rather than everyone circling the PC and are only connected to each other based on their ties to the PC.  Sure there is the banter in DAI, but I never got the sense that any of them were really close and I never felt close to any of them except for Dorian. 

 

I also prefer the romances in DA2, ME, and TW more than DAO and DAI.  DA2 had the rivalry system which I loved, and I felt the relationships were more natural in ME3 and TW.  It was brought up before by Tishen, I believe, DA tend to do the whole sex/relationship as a reward which is something that makes me feel a bit iffy about the whole thing. I would even say that ME and DA2 does it as well to a certain extent.  Help them and you get sex/friendship.  ME3 is the only game I can say didn't do that so connecting with Kaidan felt believable and he wasn't around simply reward me. With TW, you can help your friends out and they can help you out when you need it, but their friendship isn't a treat for a job well done.

 

As for the Baron, I helped him because I felt bad for his wife.  He brought a lot of this on himself but innocent people would have suffered by me turning my back on him. I figured those Crones can't keep operating like that with no one doing anything to stop them.

 

 

You only have the option to not help the Baron rescue his wife.  By then you would have all the info you need to leave that area.

[Seraphim24]

I'm not sure how to respond to this rant either. I took up what I thought was an interesting side discussion about a really well done cinematic introductory sequence to illustrate how a game can be (1) entirely consistent in-setting when it comes to gender portrayals (and so it would be wrong to say it's showing anything mysoginistic in-setting); (2) that in-setting mysoginistic content should be done - and HAS been done phenomenally well in TW3 (you'll notice I just wanted to talk about the Bloody Baron scene) and (3) praising CDPR and TW3 for (1) and (2) is not inconsistent with taking issue with some portrayals that are problematic at a meta-level because of how little variety there is in female archetypes.

I - at least - haven't made a big deal about the Yen scene. You'll notice I wanted to talk about the Bloody Baron. So I'm not sure why you want to deflect this as nitpicking.

There's an important point here: there's a difference between well-done setting consistent portrayals of mysoginistic content (the exceptionally well done bloody baron quest line) and superficial titillating content that actually undercuts what would otherwise be a powerful scene.

It seems, however, that it was a vain hope to think I could add some semblance of rigour to the discussion. So consider that you've won the Internets (including all of the tubes that carry it) and I will leave this topic alone.

 

Not a single point about DA, still, this isn't a meaningful comparison if you refuse to acknowledge any potential flaws in your beloved franchise.

 

Maybe I'll fill it in for you, "DA is the god's right of man, every single thing in the universe show bow before emperor Gaider and the omnipotent forces that surround him and his mighty writing staff. All which they say and do is writ imperative on us lowly plebians and are infantile grasping at logic and sense and morality, only that which they say is law and all who dispute that are unfurling wimping whiners who know nothing of reason or sense.

 

That which is given to us is the word of law and holy morality, none of which has been given through the various doctrines and pieces is remotely of value except as they are given, no one shall ever question their sanctity and with their ungodly perfection and unstining brilliance, every one who thinks otherwise is a sinner and shall be condemned."

 

Give me a break, there's tons to criticize there.

 

Also that wasn't a rant, DA is pretty freaking pornographic, period, and when it comes to female characters they are light years behind CDPR.

[AresKeith]

Well this thread is going swimmingly  

[AresKeith]

Not a single point about DA, still, this isn't a meaningful comparison if you refuse to acknowledge any potential flaws in your beloved franchise.

 

Are you purposely misreading people's post?

[Seraphim24]

Are you purposely misreading people's post?

 

Where did either you, Exile, or the other person, suggest anything was wrong with DA? Ever?

 

Maybe the frame rate or something, but sex, morality? Unquestioned superiority in all things.

[In Exile]

Not a single point about DA, still, this isn't a meaningful comparison if you refuse to acknowledge any potential flaws in your beloved franchise.

I'm not sure how to react to this one. I didn't refuse to acknowledge flaws in anything. Are you suggesting I just open every post with "And here are all the things I dislike about DAI so Kefka will feel I have legitimacy?"

If it makes you feel better - and to make it a comparison - I think the scene with Cassandra and the Inquisitor has the same problem only it compounds the error with terrible dialogue, no real narrative purpose, and generally lacks any redeeming feature. The camera work isn't as good, the sexualised content serves absolutely no purpose but titillation - and the titillation itself is pointless - and the entire scene then goes nowhere (in the narrative sense - the Cassandra romance is for all intents and purposes done there).

Have I won legitimacy in your eyes now? Will you stop with the insults now? Edit: and did you edit your post to make it more of an insulting rant? Look - you win the internet. I'm leaving this thread. Congrats.

[AresKeith]

Where did either you, Exile, or the other person, suggest anything was wrong with DA? Ever?

 

Quite a few times actually in this very thread also, almost everyone acknowledges the flaws in the series

 

Maybe the frame rate or something, but sex, morality? Unquestioned superiority in all things.

 

I honestly don't care if Bioware does sex scenes or not, does Black-white morality or grey morality. I'm fine with either way

[Seraphim24]

By the way, I'm well aware you mentioned the things you liked about the scene, but this discussion has become entirely about the TW and that doesn't make for sensible discussion.

 

I'm not sure how to react to this one. I didn't refuse to acknowledge flaws in anything. Are you suggesting I just open every post with "And here are all the things I dislike about DAI so Kefka will feel I have legitimacy?"

If it makes you feel better - and to make it a comparison - I think the scene with Cassandra and the Inquisitor has the same problem only it compounds the error with terrible dialogue, no real narrative purpose, and generally lacks any redeeming feature. The camera work isn't as good, the sexualised content serves absolutely no purpose but titillation - and the titillation itself is pointless - and the entire scene then goes nowhere (in the narrative sense - the Cassandra romance is for all intents and purposes done there).

Have I won legitimacy in your eyes now? Will you stop with the insults now?

 

Well that wasn't so hard right? It's pretty obvious though to anyone reading this that if Triss or Yen has a butt shot that upsets people well by all the gods they should have a problem with Cass's major ****** shots and everything else.

 

Obviously that logic was lost on the likes of Polygon but it's nice to see that wasn't lost on everyone here (which is a compliment by the way).

 

And none of these things are insults, it's just logic, you can see it plain as day if you go on youtube DA is full of sex and characters screwing and making crass jokes and a billion other things but that was apparently lost on a fair number of reviewers and people when it comes to the TW3. If people aren't applying the same logic consistently it's first of all confusing but also disingenuous obviously.

 

Edit: Jeez, the casual word for BREASTS which starts with T is censored on this place? It's not like Bioware put them in their video games or something.

 

Quite a few times actually in this very thread also

 

You personally? That's a sight, but if you don't care about the sex one way or another than it would make sense not to care one way or the other.

[KaiserShep]

I like leaving Cole a spirit.  I think Varric didn't really know what he was talking about.  I also don't like the idea of the world losing it's magic and becoming more mundane so I believed that making Cole human would be another small piece in driving the magic out of the world in a way. 
And also, Peaceful compassionate spirit > Vengeful human.

 

It is kind of ironic on Solas' part though, because in this instance, he insists that Cole must forgive the Templar that left the real Cole to die a slow and painful death, yet in another, will incinerate a group of mages for binding a spirit, or at least disapprove if you stop him.

[Zinho73]

DA is a bunch of stats that boil down into X tank ability, Y heal ability, Z damage ability. It's literally WoW, it's all automated, you don't need to think or manage the statistics because it's just one variable. The only factors are CC and that vanished after DA:O.

 

W3 you have to use at least some reflexes and timing and strategy, as messy as it gets, at least it exists.

I would say that the TW3 system is very simple and you can play it without thinking about it too much, but it is worth and rewarding when you think about things. The encounters will go way faster and it is cool how everything is tied up with your bestiary and the lore.

 

You can spam buttons (at least on easier difficulties), but if you combine the information you have about the target and use the right signs, the right oils and time your button presses you destroy targets several levels higher than you in a incredible satisfying way. And since it is all kind of integrated in quests and tutorials and the natural flow of the gameplay, it works. It is a flawed system that becomes way more interesting than it should be if you invest on it and roleplay the character.

 

DAI is a simple, mindless affair from the beginning to end. It is occasionally fun because it is kind of fun to blow things up in a mindless way.

 

But I think that's very cool that the best way to enjoy and be good in the combat in TW3 is to think like your character.

 

Another interesting thing is that you don't need to fight to grind levels, so you can time and chose when to engage, so although the combat is real time, this alone adds more consideration to combat than many other games (DAI included).

[Seraphim24]

I'm not sure how to respond to this rant either. I took up what I thought was an interesting side discussion about a really well done cinematic introductory sequence to illustrate how a game can be (1) entirely consistent in-setting when it comes to gender portrayals (and so it would be wrong to say it's showing anything mysoginistic in-setting); (2) that in-setting mysoginistic content should be done - and HAS been done phenomenally well in TW3 (you'll notice I just wanted to talk about the Bloody Baron scene) and (3) praising CDPR and TW3 for (1) and (2) is not inconsistent with taking issue with some portrayals that are problematic at a meta-level because of how little variety there is in female archetypes.

I - at least - haven't made a big deal about the Yen scene. You'll notice I wanted to talk about the Bloody Baron. So I'm not sure why you want to deflect this as nitpicking.

There's an important point here: there's a difference between well-done setting consistent portrayals of mysoginistic content (the exceptionally well done bloody baron quest line) and superficial titillating content that actually undercuts what would otherwise be a powerful scene.

It seems, however, that it was a vain hope to think I could add some semblance of rigour to the discussion. So consider that you've won the Internets (including all of the tubes that carry it) and I will leave this topic alone.

 

Also you are wrong in assuming I have no interest in the other topics, if you want to talk about Bloody Baron, that's great, but this is a TW vs DA thread, so as much as we discuss the one or the other, it has to come back or else it just doesn't make sense.

 

I personally found Yen's introduction plenty fun and not necessarily very graphic or anything compared to a litany of things in DA, but every time I brought that up  DA you guys just went back to the TW.

 

Now that your on DA, I can go back to the TW, see, that's how conversation works, it's back and forth.

 

As to that, I honestly I haven't gotten that far, but if you view it as more compelling than something I found basically harmless, odds are I would like it even more, or Keira for that matter.

 

I still think personally "sex" is the key element, even in TW2 when you come across Phillipa and her GF it's like just breasts and such, people in beds, or chairs, it just is somewhat meaningless to me, but whenever you are going all the way to penetration and such (as the DA series consistently expresses) that is another level up entirely, IMO.

 

Finally as I've stated many times it's about the characters and every bit of dialogue, a few sex scenes or shots of this or that isn't going to sway me one way or the other as to the ultimate opinion, it's about every single piece of dialogue, every set, every character, every game point, there's hundreds of things that affect an impression of something.

[AresKeith]

 

You personally? That's a sight, but if you don't care about the sex one way or another than it would make sense not to care one way or the other.

 

What are you even talking about

[Dreadstruck]

How about we bring this back on the track, eh?

 

Someone mentioned combat before: To be honest, I probably wouldn't change much about DA's combat system. Maybe tone down the ridiculous fireworks/effects with each attack and hire an mocap actor/animator who actually knows a thing or two about fighting with a sword.

 

DA's system is indeed too World of Warcraft-like and therefore too fundamentally different to make use of Witcher's more rapid and reactive sword fighting.

 

Although this would look pretty badass. Imagine your Warden carving his way through Darkspawn like this.

 

http://gfycat.com/CrispOffbeatElk

[SofaJockey]

Amusingly, multiple posts on the Witcher forums complaining about the repetitiveness of TW3 sex scenes,

something DAI knows how to do with uniqueness and no pants, with great respect 

[Seraphim24]

I would say that the TW3 system is very simple and you can play it without thinking about it too much, but it is worth and rewarding when you think about things. The encounters will go way faster and it is cool how everything is tied up with your bestiary and the lore.

 

You can spam buttons (at least on easier difficulties), but if you combine the information you have about the target and use the right signs, the right oils and time your button presses you destroy targets several levels higher than you in a incredible satisfying way. And since it is all kind of integrated in quests and tutorials and the natural flow of the gameplay, it works. It is a flawed system that becomes way more interesting than it should be if you invest on it and roleplay the character.

 

DAI is a simple, mindless affair from the beginning to end. It is occasionally fun because it is kind of fun to blow things up in a mindless way.

 

But I think that's very cool that the best way to enjoy and be good in the combat in TW3 is to think like your character.

 

Another interesting thing is that you don't need to fight to grind levels, so you can time and chose when to engage, so although the combat is real time, this alone adds more consideration to combat than many other games (DAI included).

 

I agree mostly but DA2 and I are mostly even more mindless than WoW though, which can already be pretty mindless though so I'm just like.. ehhhh...

 

It's mostly Origins that props up the reputation because you had crushing prison and blood magic and several strategic and tactical spells. Mages meant magic and so on, but in DA2 it's just another form of auto attack. it's absurd to compare it to TW because it's one character but your fire sign does decent AE damage etc, there are things that add up.

[AresKeith]

Amusingly, multiple posts on the Witcher forums complaining about the repetitiveness of TW3 sex scenes,

something DAI knows how to do with uniqueness and no pants, with great respect 

 

TW3 forum is so much like BSN it brings a tear to my eye

[Andraste_Reborn]

When it comes to female characters they are light years behind CDPR.

 

How so?

 

(That's a genuine question; I only played the first Witcher game for an hour so it might have an amazing cast of supporting female characters for all I know. But the Dragon Age franchise has women as diverse as Wynne and Morrigan and Shale and Anora and Branka and Sigrun and Merrill and Isabela and Meredith and Cassandra and Harding and Vivienne and Josephine and Celene and ... well, I could go on listing them all day. And you an play as a woman. The way DA handles female characters is one of my favourite things about it, so I'm curious as to why someone would argue that another franchise does it better.)

[Zinho73]

I am not targeting this post at anyone, I am well aware that the discussion about nudity and gratuitous ass shots is in another level. but thinking about the topic I kind of came to the conclusion that complaining about gratuitous nudity on The Witcher series is like complaining about gratuitous nudity in a Playboy magazine. It is kind of pointless.

 

There is a "macho", provocative tone in the setting and in the game series as a whole, clearly toned down to adapt to north american sensibilities, but that still permeates the whole thing. I like it, but i can see it can be too much on your face for some people.

 

I like the discussion, though. The Devs can pick and chose what they consider a valid lesson. But I think, for all its flaws, the DA series kind of handles those things well enough. I am not sure I like the fact that this "relationship" thing became something obligatory, as it adds an additional level of fake to the whole procedure, but that's another discussion altogether.

[KaiserShep]

How about we bring this back on the track, eh?

 

Someone mentioned combat before: To be honest, I probably wouldn't change much about DA's combat system. Maybe tone down the ridiculous fireworks/effects with each attack and hire an mocap actor/animator who actually knows a thing or two about fighting with a sword.

 

DA's system is indeed too World of Warcraft-like and therefore too fundamentally different to make use of Witcher's more rapid and reactive sword fighting.

 

Although this would look pretty badass. Imagine your Warden carving his way through Darkspawn like this.

 

http://gfycat.com/CrispOffbeatElk

 

Yeah, when it comes to swordplay, BioWare has their work cut out for them, but character animation was always a bit of a weak point, especially when it came to little things like grasping objects. Dragons certainly got a major improvement, though.