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Feedback... be more like The Witcher 3


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#2101
KBomb

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Thanks for assuming that I am some extremist who despises men. That was really amusing. I feel like a lot of confusion could be be solved if some of you bothered to Google the definition of 'feminism'. I used male pronouns because the most high profile cases in the news are about men, usually celebrities, committing domestic abuse against women, and because I'm trying to relate it to your responses to what happened in the game. If you'd like, I'd comment on how annoyed I am by how female on male violence is often portrayed as a joke, even in recent films such as Wreck It Ralph. Though I imagine this may go over some of your heads because of your ignorance of the definition of feminism. I don't know where a lot of you are based, but I live in Australia and literally everyone I know - teachers, friends and many television personalities - identifies as feminist.

I'll stop commenting on this thread it you'd prefer. I only commented because I was seriously disturbed by some of the responses on this topic. The only reason I'm still responding is to clarify my points. I don't know how the Witcher handled domestic abuse, and I am aware now that their intention was not to be sympathetic to the abuser, but I know how you guys here seem to handle it. A fairly large portion of you seem to sympathise with the abuser's predicament, and this is fine when the situation is fictional and you know everything about the situation. However, when real life abuse happens, sympathy towards the abuser also occurs, even when not all the details are known. The responses in this thread are eerily similar to responses to real life domestic abuse cases ('they were both at fault' and 'she cheated on him') and that was the point I was trying to comment on.

I can believe that the Witcher handled this subject in a sensitive way. I, however, do not believe its players are capable of handling this subject, judging by the comments I currently see on this topic.

This is why portrayals of such sensitive subjects, in my opinion, should not be in video games. There are so many other morally grey situations to explore in works of fantasy fiction: a ruler starving their subjects in order to wage war, vigilante fighters, assassins, sacrificing loved ones to save a nation.


The point of defense isn't whether or not he is a sympathetic abuser. Most every response-- if not all-- it has been stated that he had no excuse for hitting his wife. The contention was whether he is redeemable. No one was saying he had a right to hit his wife, they were pointing out that neither side was innocent and that it was the epitome of dysfunction. To say that the Baron was the sole perpetrater of that dysfunction would be erroneous. He came back from a war suffering from PTSD to find his wife cheating. He killed her lover in a fit of rage and his wife began abusing him. He began drinking heavily and after she tried to stab him to death, he began to abuse her in return. At the end, and with Geralt's help, the Baron stops drinking and realizes how wrong he was and vows to do better. Depending on a decision the player makes, the Baron can try to redeem himself and tries to repair the harm his part caused.

No one is disputing that the Baron is an asshat. They're simply pointing out that this story isn't black and white and that it dips into dysfunction on both sides. They're pointing out that while the Baron is a jerk and an abuser, but so is she.

I think it's an unfair statement to make that players can't handle this story line. I think those who actually played the mission have a pretty good grip on the situation. I think those who haven't played the mission are seeing one side of the argument and are choosing a side. There is no side. Both are sick, both are at fault-- which again, is what people are saying.
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#2102
Wyvernet

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(Sorry for deciding to comment again. I really do dislike misunderstandings)

 

I was referring to the group of people on this thread who were discussing the topic of abuse, and only a portion of that group. It wasn't very clear in my earlier comment and I apologise for that. However, even if only that small portion of that group holds problematic beliefs, it is still too many.

 

And yes I have not played the Witcher. However, I was skimming the thread because it had a lot of responses and felt vaguely concerned by the attitudes of the people involved. I apologise for using someone else's (who played the game) perception that the abuse was portrayed insensitively, and notice how no longer referred to the portrayal as sympathetic after being informed otherwise.

 

Also, video games are a form of media. If they want to be judged seriously as a form on media and not just a bunch of colourful shapes on a screen, they should receive criticism for their handling of social issues. And I'm pretty that nearly every study gives support to how representations in the media can affect the attitudes and values of their consumers. For example, if you want to reduce homophobia in a society, then positively representing gay characters in television, such as Modern Family, can do that.

 

I came to the conclusions that the players could not handle it based on posters in this forum. It was a select few who were especially concerning and I probably shouldn't have generalised so far. Sorry about that.



#2103
Grieving Natashina

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Edit: Nah, probably not worth stepping into any further. 



#2104
KBomb

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(Sorry for deciding to comment again. I really do dislike misunderstandings)

I was referring to the group of people on this thread who were discussing the topic of abuse, and only a portion of that group. It wasn't very clear in my earlier comment and I apologise for that. However, even if only that small portion of that group holds problematic beliefs, it is still too many.

And yes I have not played the Witcher. However, I was skimming the thread because it had a lot of responses and felt vaguely concerned by the attitudes of the people involved. I apologise for using someone else's (who played the game) perception that the abuse was portrayed insensitively, and notice how no longer referred to the portrayal as sympathetic after being informed otherwise.

Also, video games are a form of media. If they want to be judged seriously as a form on media and not just a bunch of colourful shapes on a screen, they should receive criticism for their handling of social issues. And I'm pretty that nearly every study gives support to how representations in the media can affect the attitudes and values of their consumers. For example, if you want to reduce homophobia in a society, then positively representing gay characters in television, such as Modern Family, can do that.


What problematic responses would those be? I haven't seen anyone saying she deserved it-- only pointing out that she was also an abuser. Which she is.

That being said, you have no idea how TW3 handles the issue because you're relying on incomplete information. Second hand information, at that.
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#2105
Hanako Ikezawa

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About the lack of personality of the Inquisitor, I think Bioware was focusing more on people who create headcanons. While in Origins, you were aware of your characters life and motivations ('Arl Howe killed my family so I'm going to find him and shove a sword up his ass'), in Inquisition you can make up your character's past to explain their motivations ('I love my Dalish clan so I will do anything to protect them' or 'I didn't have many friends in my clan so it is a relief to find somewhere I belong'). This meant that people who didn't really do headcanons for their characters (like me) found the Inquisitor kind of bland and lacking in personality. Hopefully this is something they will rectify in the next game.

Hopefully that is something they will continue in future games. 


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#2106
Innsmouth Dweller

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(...)

 

Also, video games are a form of media. If they want to be judged seriously as a form on media and not just a bunch of colourful shapes on a screen, they should receive criticism for their handling of social issues. And I'm pretty that nearly every study gives support to how representations in the media can affect the attitudes and values of their consumers. For example, if you want to reduce homophobia in a society, then positively representing gay characters in television, such as Modern Family, can do that.

i disagree wholeheartedly, art's main role isn't to teach morality, religion/law/pick something does that. games are entertainmnent; social education is not fun. any kind of media (movie, tv series, game, music) which tries to "reduce <insert anything here really> in a society" has no value for me

if story isn't skewed, doesn't pick sides (and Baron's story is as real and objective as it gets) - it's great and makes more sense than partonizing lecture about how bad hitting women is. people, are intelligent and emphatic by nature, they know hitting anyone is wrong.



#2107
HuldraDancer

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And nothing important to add to this so feel free to skip over

Currentish conversation really reminds me of a call my grandmother told me about when she was a cop, which was a man tried to kill himself and put a hole in his legs on accident. He tried to kill himself because he believed that his girlfriend didn't love him anymore because she stopped abusing him.

Again not really related but the talk about that quest reminded me of that was all. Sorry for wasting time carry on.

#2108
Hazegurl

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(Sorry for deciding to comment again. I really do dislike misunderstandings)

 

I was referring to the group of people on this thread who were discussing the topic of abuse, and only a portion of that group. It wasn't very clear in my earlier comment and I apologise for that. However, even if only that small portion of that group holds problematic beliefs, it is still too many.

 

And yes I have not played the Witcher. However, I was skimming the thread because it had a lot of responses and felt vaguely concerned by the attitudes of the people involved. I apologise for using someone else's (who played the game) perception that the abuse was portrayed insensitively, and notice how no longer referred to the portrayal as sympathetic after being informed otherwise.

Once again, your comments about those of us discussing the Baron story is wrong.  As no one is saying that it was okay for the Baron to hit his wife so really you are making up your own narrative about the discussion to find offense.  It seems to me that what you have an issue with is the acknowledgement that the Baron's wife was also an abuser.  Cause I really can't think of anything else you could have an issue with unless you tell us what was actually stated.

 

Also, video games are a form of media. If they want to be judged seriously as a form on media and not just a bunch of colourful shapes on a screen, they should receive criticism for their handling of social issues. And I'm pretty that nearly every study gives support to how representations in the media can affect the attitudes and values of their consumers. For example, if you want to reduce homophobia in a society, then positively representing gay characters in television, such as Modern Family, can do that.

 

Yes, video games are media and like all media they aren't obligated to portray social issues by an approval check list.  I also have an issue with the bolded part.  Portraying gays only in a positive light is just as bad as only portraying them in a negative light.  How about portray them as human beings? Complex? With problems? As the cause of problems? And so on.  

 

How about you stop treating gamers like they are idiots who need to be raised by video games. We don't need play pins and rubber padding on in our media.  We are fully capable of forming our own opinions on any subject matter whether you agree with it or not. Actually, the only person incapable of handling the subject matter is you. 


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#2109
Laughing_Man

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*snip*

 

I may have gone overboard and wrote something that could have been interpreted as a personal attack, my emotions got the better of me. Sorry.

 

I simply think that being overly politically correct in video games, does nothing but make the game childish and boring.

No matter what gender you are, your sexuality, or your skin color, you should be treated as a regular human being - no more, no less.

 

Doing anything else in a video game comes of as fake and preachy.

 

Entertainment for adults is not supposed to replace education, and certainly not become a propaganda tool exclusive to minority groups and certain types of political agenda. Indeed I would argue that it merely needs to entertain.

 

In a world were mind-numbing forms of entertainment such as certain reality shows are considered mainstream, attacking video games because they are not "progressive enough", is dumb and useless.

 

The average gamer is not the enemy of minorities, at worst they just don't care much.


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#2110
Wyvernet

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My reading of the previous few posts seem to be quite different to yours. The only reason I decided to comment in the first place was because I was disturbed by the justifications of abuse that were eerily similar to justifications in real life. I could've been more selective in my reading than you, and for that I apologise. And I have literally always stated that my opinion on the abuse itself was from second-hand information, so that is not news.

 

I will back off now. My point is already made: I acknowledge that the situation in the Witcher is probably handled sensitively, I acknowledge that the wife was probably abusive as well, but I personally do not believe that domestic abuse should be portrayed in video games based on the responses in this forum. The responses (that I may have selectively read) justify the fictional abuse in ways too similar to real life. This is my personal opinion.

 

Also, media definitely has impacts on attitudes and values, whether it intends to or not. Just consult the hundreds of studies that have supported this. It was never my intention to treat anyone like naive children, I was just relaying what I am aware of.

 

If you'd like, I could begin on another topic. About whether the protagonist should be pre-established (or be chosen from a selection of several pre-established backgrounds) or be fully customisable. And if greater role-playing can be achieved with the former or a satisfying personality can be achieved with the latter.

 

(Thank you for not writing what I could perceive as a personal attack. My feelings get hurt quite easily. I greatly appreciate that you did that)

 

(I was mainly addressing what thought were disturbing responses in this thread not the game itself. I apologise for this conversation taking up so many pages because I kept replying. I don't enjoy being misunderstood and I felt the urge to keep addressing these misunderstandings. Therefore I am replying to replies by editing this post. The topic is somewhat vaguely relevant in the way that people keep saying that Bioware would handle it in an overly preachy way as opposed to an interesting realistic way)



#2111
Grieving Natashina

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I figure it like this:  If someone has a problem with the way CDPR portrays minorities, women or the LGBT community, then they would be best served contacting CDPR either through email or through their forums.  On this forum and in this thread, I would rather see more of what BioWare could do better based on TW3 feedback.  Again, I'm not saying the conversation has no merit, but please take that concern to them.  CDPR probably doesn't even read this forum, and would not be able to address those kinds of concerns with their game.


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#2112
Saphiron123

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I think the moment we start cutting issues out of games, deciding that there should be no racism, no conflict, no abuse, or tragedy to face on our journeys.... well, you pretty much have DAI. Sanitary, even the qunari accept everyone now, and meaningful conflict like the treatment of elves in origins has been toned way down in favor of a sanitized world that doesn't make an impression often enough,

The witcher doesn't glorify these things, but at least it has the balls (or ovaries) that origins once had to put them in and have the player face them unflinchingly, and respond in their own way. 

DAI too often tells us how we should feel and why. Origins let us make up our own minds and react with our character the way we felt he/she would. The wicther does the same, and that's why it leaves an impression.

Show me a little horror, don't glorify it, but don't censor it or explain to me how i should feel about it. Let me choose my response, and let the story reflect that.


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#2113
jsachun

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Its often that people who are portrayed to have been involved in wrong doings have reasons why they may have been forced to do so. It doesn't justify the means, but understanding the reasons behind their actions certainly can helps us sympathise with their humanity.
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#2114
SnakeCode

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I'm so glad I

Spoiler
when it started talking about how it needed the black mare I was like :blink:. lol!!

Spoiler

 

Interesting tidbit- It was also the tree spirit that gave Keira Metz nightmares. You'll remember when you first meet Keira she said she had nightmares for the first few months after moving to Velen, something was calling her into the swamps but she "confronted the... thing" in a lucid dream and the nightmares abruptly stopped. Recall also that the villagers of Downwarren are also suffering from nightmares and walking off into the wilderness never to be seen again, as told by the Ealdorman.

 

To my knowledge it never touches on this further in game, but it's obviously the same symptoms, and therefore probably the same culprit. I love how they leave it for the player to put two and two together. Also how two seemingly unrelated quests are linked.


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#2115
Trikormadenadon

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But what does this have to do with DA2 being influenced by WoW? The trinity design has existed for far longer than WoW has.

Not really. The trinity of MMO gaming came out when WoW did. Prior to wow it was a quad. There was tank, healer dps and crowd controller. WoW dropped the crowd control specific classes and put their abilities into the other 3 thus forming the "Holy Trinity".



#2116
SofaJockey

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... PC Concerns topic was shut down mainly because the contributors mostly moved to Witcher 3. ...

 

PC Concerns topic: Several hundred pages of PC optimisation complaints and 'TW3 will be so much better!'...

People move to The Witcher forums.

Find: Several hundred pages of PC optimisation complaints...

 

Funny how easy it is to extol the virtues of an unreleased game...  :P


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#2117
SofaJockey

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I figure it like this:  If someone has a problem with the way CDPR portrays minorities, women or the LGBT community, then they would be best served contacting CDPR either through email or through their forums.  On this forum and in this thread, I would rather see more of what BioWare could do better based on TW3 feedback.  Again, I'm not saying the conversation has no merit, but please take that concern to them.  CDPR probably doesn't even read this forum, and would not be able to address those kinds of concerns with their game.

 

Absolutely true:

 

My summary so far would be:

 

DA be more like The Witcher 3 in:

  • Weight of side-quests
  • Number of side quest steps and choices
  • Stronger punch in use of cutcsene/animations
  • TW3 Horses are better

DA should stay the same, develop its own course in:

  • The world and graphics (to include destructibles)
  • Companions and group chemistry
  • Combat mechanics
  • Inclusive play options for gamers

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#2118
Grieving Natashina

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Absolutely true:

 

My summary so far would be:

 

DA be more like The Witcher 3 in:

  • Weight of side-quests
  • Number of side quest steps and choices
  • Stronger punch in use of cutcsene/animations
  • TW3 Horses are better

DA should stay the same, develop its own course in:

  • The world and graphics (to include destructibles)
  • Companions and group chemistry
  • Combat mechanics
  • Inclusive play options for gamers

 

If you don't mind me asking, when you talk about TW3's horses being better, are you referring to the animation?  I saw footage and I thought it looks a lot better than DA:I's approach.



#2119
Rawgrim

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Chess doesn't have stats last I checked.

 

Stats doesn't make a game an action game. Mostly stats are tied to rpgs and strategy games.



#2120
Trikormadenadon

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Absolutely true:

 

My summary so far would be:

 

DA be more like The Witcher 3 in:

  • Weight of side-quests
  • Number of side quest steps and choices
  • Stronger punch in use of cutcsene/animations
  • TW3 Horses are better

DA should stay the same, develop its own course in:

  • The world and graphics (to include destructibles)
  • Companions and group chemistry
  • Combat mechanics
  • Inclusive play options for gamers

 

I would also like a step backwards/step away from the open world idea for DA. DA:I just didn't feel like a dragon age game to me. I sunk over 175 hours into my first playthrough so i did get my money's worth from the game as far as playtime is concerned but I actually never finished the game even once yet because I didn't feel like I was playing a Dragon Age game so I got tired of it and stopped playing.

 

I play Dragon Age to be wowed by the interpersonal relationships of the characters and the story. Cinematic conversations. With the addition of open world there was too much to explore and thus too much time between the cinematics so I lost the sense that I am playing Dragon Age and I started to feel like I was playing Skyrim. Problem is, Skyrim did Skyrim much better. Dragon Age should have focused on what Dragon Age does better, story and characters, not exploration. Players should not be required to skip content intentionally in order to keep things on track. The game should be doing that on its own.

 

To put things another way, I have over 20 completed playthroughs of both DA:O and DA2, but have yet to complete a single playthrough of DA:I. To me, that says a lot right there.



#2121
Rawgrim

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Absolutely true:

 

My summary so far would be:

 

DA be more like The Witcher 3 in:

  • Weight of side-quests
  • Number of side quest steps and choices
  • Stronger punch in use of cutcsene/animations
  • TW3 Horses are better

DA should stay the same, develop its own course in:

  • The world and graphics (to include destructibles)
  • Companions and group chemistry
  • Combat mechanics
  • Inclusive play options for gamers

 

 

The combat mechanics from DA:I has to go. Really. It is so dumbed down people have beaten the game on Nightmare by button mashing.



#2122
TobyJake

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PC Concerns topic: Several hundred pages of PC optimisation complaints and 'TW3 will be so much better!'...

People move to The Witcher forums.

Find: Several hundred pages of PC optimisation complaints...

 

Funny how easy it is to extol the virtues of an unreleased game...  :P

Excuse me.

I have W3, I was on PC Concerns forum from 18 Nov 2014.

W3 was only mentioned after 6 months of trying to get BW to appear on the forum at all. They never did so W3 became a topic for discussion.

The topic was closed by Conal Pierse. Evidently you cannot mention W3 on a BW forum.

If you had even read any of the posts, you would know that Witcher was rarely mentioned before a fortnight ago.

It is/was a PC Concerns topic started by Mike Darrah. So did you expect to see PS4/XBox problems??

Get your facts straight before you jump in.


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#2123
WikipediaBrown

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If you don't mind me asking, when you talk about TW3's horses being better, are you referring to the animation?  I saw footage and I thought it looks a lot better than DA:I's approach.

I haven't gotten far into W3 yet, but I really like that you can hit left shift and the horse will auto follow the path...but that may just be because I'm lazy. :P 


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#2124
SofaJockey

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I preferred Roach, who just seemed more comfortable in the world.

DAI's steeds riding mechanics are just a little more clunky (and you can't fight).

 

And on the other points, open world regions are preferable to the 'corridors' of DAO/DA2, it's what you put in them that matters, openness was never the issue.

 

And I find DAI's combat a breath of fresh are compared to TW3s clunky controls, both in-world and in use.

 

All things considered, many expected TW3 to paste DAI by comparison, 

and whilst it does bring some wonderful things (the quests particularly), DAI holds up well.

 

I'd almost suggest that there has been more hate on the The Witcher forums about TW3 at release

than on BSN about DAI at release.


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#2125
SnakeCode

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Absolutely true:

 

My summary so far would be:

 

DA be more like The Witcher 3 in:

  • Weight of side-quests
  • Number of side quest steps and choices
  • Stronger punch in use of cutcsene/animations
  • TW3 Horses are better

DA should stay the same, develop its own course in:

  • The world and graphics (to include destructibles)
  • Companions and group chemistry
  • Combat mechanics
  • Inclusive play options for gamers

 

 

I'd agree with everything here except world and graphics. I think The Witcher 3 blows Inquisition out of the water here in both categories. If Bioware are going to plough on (no Witcher pun intended) with the semi/open world approach, then I think they should take more than a few leafs out of TW3's book. With dynamic weather effects, a day/night cycle, a believable ecosystem. Villages/towns/cities bustling with life. People actually having lives, instead of just standing motionless in the same place for their entire existence. People off all ages existing in the world, from babies, to children, to adults both young and old. I also wouldn't mind a less artsy/more grounded art style for the world, harkening back to the days of Origins. Getting away from this Über-high fantasy feel Inquisition had, it really reminded me of Kingdoms of Amalur's world.

 

Graphics also is a no brainer for me. They in no way make or break a game, but the better you can make your game look, all the, er... better. Hair that looks and acts like hair, trees branches swaying, leaves rustling in the wind. Everything not having a shiny sheen to it that makes everything and everyone look like they're carved out of wax. That kind of thing.


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