357 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Then a total mea culpa on that point. However, it doesn't change the fact that it was still a criminal act and that you don't really get a free pass by saying you were ordered to do it, does it?

Depends.

On many things but most importantly your government surviving.

For example.

Stalin's ethic cleansing via the NKVD.

To my knowledge no criminal charges were ever filed. It eventually got admitted to, money was thrown around but nothing really happened.

To the world it was just more bad **** done 80 years ago.

[Sifr]

Then a total mea culpa on that point. However, it doesn't change the fact that it was still a criminal act and that you don't really get a free pass by saying you were ordered to do it, does it?

 

The Nuremberg defence rarely working would seem to back up that people don't get a free pass for following illegal orders or committing war crimes, but as Warder said, it really depends on whether your regime survives? If they're still in power, it's a lot harder to actually prosecute anyone for their misdeeds because the regime will either support the accused and claim it was legal, or deny anything ever happened?

[Xilizhra]

Who gives a ****? The templars deserve as many desertions as possible.

[Carmen_Willow]

If the Seekers are outside the chain of command as you say, then he would have no more a legitimate claim to their service than Cassandra.

But, I do not think Seekers are really outside the heirarchy.

If the Divine is the equivalent of the "Commander in Chief" of the Templars and the Seekers, and Cassandra is the "Commander in Chief's" right-hand, doesn't that make her kinda like the Chairperson of Chiefs of Staff of the Pentagon? And if the Commander in Chief hands the Chairperson of the Chief of Staff of the Pentagon a written order (the Book) that says, go forth and recruit whomever you need to start an Inquisition, then don't you think her recruitment of Cullen and his acceptance is both lawful and moral? Cullen didn't join the Templars to become a lirium addict, he joined to serve the Maker in the best way he could. So when approached by the the Chairperson of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the Pentagon (Right-Hand Seeker Cassandra) and told that the Commander in Chief had a job for him, a critical way to serve the Maker....

[Bugsie]

Well to be fair she was handed the most corrupt circle in Thedas.

Is that canon fact or opinion?

[MarkyMcGee]

No. I don't believe he is a deserter.

[Master Warder Z_]

Is that canon fact or opinion?

From Enchanters to First Enchanters you had blood mages.

So...from the two circles we observed directly.

...it totally blows Fereldan out of the water.

Plus Bioware made the entire premise based on both sides being extreme so probably.

It's a fair guess.

[raging_monkey]

From Enchanters to First Enchanters you had blood mages.

So...from the two circles we observed directly.

...it totally blows Fereldan out of the water.

Plus Bioware made the entire premise based on both sides being extreme so probably.

It's a fair guess.

really think they messed up there extreme viewpoint stories bore me

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Is that canon fact or opinion?

If Kirkwall wasn't the most corrupt, I'd hate to see what the alternative is

[AtreiyaN7]

Depends.

On many things but most importantly your government surviving.

For example.

Stalin's ethic cleansing via the NKVD.

To my knowledge no criminal charges were ever filed. It eventually got admitted to, money was thrown around but nothing really happened.

To the world it was just more bad **** done 80 years ago.

 

Stalin was a monster, not that you'd know it with some of the whitewashing that's been done in Ukraine lately. I read a recent article about how the Russian-backed rebels in eastern Ukraine have essentially rewritten new educational guidelines that basically favor of Stalin in schools.

 

There was a rather horrific story about how in the Stalinist era, starvation in Ukraine was so bad because of Stalin's policies that people resorted to cannibalism to survive. Apparently, one man's sister was invited over to a neighbor's house but never returned home. They only found out much, much later that the neighbors were so desperate that they'd actually eaten the man's little sister.

 

Only now, the Russian-based rebels seem to want to pretend that none of that happened and that any pain was shared throughout the USSR (and satellite countries, presumably). Would've been nice if Stalin had been judged for every bad thing that he was responsible for, but such is life. Sometimes you do get away with murder and worse, but that probably only applies if you're the leader of a nation with nukes and could start WWIII if anyone looks at you funny.

[The Baconer]

Is that canon fact or opinion?

 

I'd say fact.

 

But I'd also be counting both the Templars stationed there and the mages in that regard. Meredith herself was a contagion.

[Xilizhra]

Stalin was a monster, not that you'd know it with some of the whitewashing that's been done in Ukraine lately. I read a recent article about how the Russian-backed rebels in eastern Ukraine have essentially rewritten new educational guidelines that basically favor of Stalin in schools.

 

There was a rather horrific story about how in the Stalinist era, starvation in Ukraine was so bad because of Stalin's policies that people resorted to cannibalism to survive. Apparently, one man's sister was invited over to a neighbor's house but never returned home. They only found out much, much later that the neighbors were so desperate that they'd actually eaten the man's little sister.

 

Only now, the Russian-based rebels seem to want to pretend that none of that happened and that any pain was shared throughout the USSR (and satellite countries, presumably). Would've been nice if Stalin had been judged for every bad thing that he was responsible for, but such is life. Sometimes you do get away with murder and worse, but that probably only applies if you're the leader of a nation with nukes and could start WWIII if anyone looks at you funny.

Stalin was a fiend, but he helped save the world from a worse one (not out of altruism, but some of the things he did, like the industrialization program, were vital).

[Bugsie]

I'm talking PRIOR to Merediths rule.

 

Canon fact or opinion?

 

There is no doubting the state of things by the end of the game - but where does it state ANYTHING about the Kirkwall's circle prior to this?

[ModernAcademic]

From fantasy land, with its bloody mages and icky templars to Stalin, Nuremberg and WWI.

 

Sh*t just got interesting.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Finns?

[Xilizhra]

The Finns?

Well, I'm a little irked at them still for siding with Hitler.

[Bugsie]

If Kirkwall wasn't the most corrupt, I'd hate to see what the alternative is

I'm not questioning the state of the circle or the Templars during the events of DA2 or Merediths rule (that we are privy to) I'm questioning the statement that the Circle was corrupt under previous enchanters and previous Knight-Commanders. If it's not actually stated anywhere, the suggestion it was always corrupt is opinion not fact. From what I gather, rule under the previous Knight-Commander was not so extreme, perhaps because it didn't need to be?

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, I'm a little irked at them still for siding with Hitler.

No comment.

*has nothing positive to say at all*

Well scratch that.

That pointless Russian pissing match resulted in 60,000 dead or maimed communists.

That is a positive.

[Lumix19]

From Enchanters to First Enchanters you had blood mages.

So...from the two circles we observed directly.

...it totally blows Fereldan out of the water.

Plus Bioware made the entire premise based on both sides being extreme so probably.

It's a fair guess.

Extreme to be sure but not that far off from reality. There's certainly parallels between the templars and stuff like the Stanford Prison Experiment, or the more modern Abu Ghraib. And the mages could internalize the stereotype that mages are dangerous and become dangerous, stereotype threat and all that.

[AtreiyaN7]

The Nuremberg defence rarely working would seem to back up that people don't get a free pass for following illegal orders or committing war crimes, but as Warder said, it really depends on whether your regime survives? If they're still in power, it's a lot harder to actually prosecute anyone for their misdeeds because the regime will either support the accused and claim it was legal, or deny anything ever happened?

 

Yeah, I'd say that the winner(s) always get to write history and that they'll definitely write it in their favor if they happen to be the ones guilty of war crimes. That was particularly evident when I watched The Act of Killing a while ago (a documentary about Indonesian war criminals talking about their war crimes - the ones that they totally got away with and were even proud of in some cases since it's not like any of them got dragged off to the Hague for what they did).

 

If Cory had won, well, he didn't seem to care much about public opinion. It seemed as if everyone was either enslaved or imprisoned and seeded with red lyrium if they were enemies in the future that you experience when you side with the mages.

[The Baconer]

I'm not questioning the state of the circle or the Templars during the events of DA2 or Merediths rule (that we are privy to) I'm questioning the statement that the Circle was corrupt under previous enchanters and previous Knight-Commanders. If it's not actually stated anywhere, the suggestion it was always corrupt is opinion not fact. From what I gather, rule under the previous Knight-Commander was not so extreme, perhaps because it didn't need to be?

 

I want to say the situation in Kirkwall was always acknowledged as being crappy. How could it not be?

 

It appears to be one of the most magically-damaged places in Thedas, rendered that way on purpose by blood magic experiments conducted by Tevinters centuries ago. The Gallows facility itself used to be a hub for processing slaves, and breaking their spirits. All of the imagery constructed for this purpose still remain, and the architecture remains fashioned as a prison.

[Xilizhra]

No comment.

*has nothing positive to say at all*

Well scratch that.

That pointless Russian pissing match resulted in 60,000 dead or maimed communists.

That is a positive.

Not really. The personnel depletion from Russia's more socially advanced sections in the west led to much higher proportions of the Red Army being from the wilder eastern reaches by the end of the war, something that very likely contributed to the ravages faced by the German people during the Soviet counterinvasion (of course, things would have been bad regardless, as German conduct in the Union had been even worse, and the Soviets all hated Germany passionately, but it certainly didn't help).

[raging_monkey]

From fantasy land, with its bloody mages and icky templars to Stalin, Nuremberg and WWI.

Sh*t just got interesting.

saying it all day

[Master Warder Z_]

The Hague is overrated.