357 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

I read the short story and its not stated that Samson was the first red templars, only that he started after Cullen had left.
Or I'm reading it wrong? (No sarcasm, I really want to know if I'm reading it wrong)

[Ashaantha]

I read the short story and its not stated that Samson was the first red templars, only that he started after Cullen had left.
Or I'm reading it wrong? (No sarcasm, I really want to know if I'm reading it wrong)

 

More likely you were reading my original post wrong. I never said anything about Samson being the first to use the red lyrium. I don't think the short story says Samson was the first to drink it exactly but I'd have to re-read it, again. I think he would have started taking it at the same time he gave it to his brothers and sisters in the Order though, it seems the kind of person he is.

 

The only reason I linked the short story was so anyone who disagreed with me, when I pointed out that Bioware's timeline of the two years between Kirkwall going up in flames and the Inquisition starting was contradictory and that not limited to being in regards to Cullen, could read that part of it themselves. Bioware has messed up their timelines in the past, especially between games and between novels and games so there's no reason they didn't do it again.

[Boost32]

Oh, sorry.
But still I don't think its stated in the short story that they only started drinking red Lyrium after Cullen left, others templars have to drink before for the attack to happen, if they didn't existed, Hawke would still be in Kirkwall.
But the red templars at Kirkwall is already a plot hole, with or without the short story.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's been my impression too, kinda reminds of this:



Not that you serve Lucifer Warder but hopefully you get my point.

I get that I was compared to a D rate antagonist from a c rate show.

And literal demon.

[Master Warder Z_]

Warder's world is very black and white.

"Follow every single order no matter what!"

"All communists ever are absolutely and purely evil, and the world would be better if they were all dead!"

Must be nice to live like that, but my world is a lot more complicated. But ignorance is bliss, right?

Ignorance is bliss?

That's what you took from it.

Alright then.

Your...perspective astounds me from it's simplicity.

Because only you two have said anything of black and white period.

[Master Warder Z_]

In short.

Neither of you failed to live up to the expectations set for you.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I read this as "Is Cullen a disaster?".

[Xilizhra]

I get that I was compared to a D rate antagonist from a c rate show.

And literal demon.

Well, your avatar looks like a red templar horror from a distance.

[Ashaantha]

Oh, sorry.
But still I don't think its stated in the short story that they only started drinking red Lyrium after Cullen left, others templars have to drink before for the attack to happen, if they didn't existed, Hawke would still be in Kirkwall.
But the red templars at Kirkwall is already a plot hole, with or without the short story.

 

I agree with you that all this is already a major plot hole, especially in regards to red templars... Something went wrong sometime during the process where the game's script gets passed around the writers and editors

Bioware's canon includes the games and the books as well, which makes them mess up their own timelines a lot, which we have proof of previously.

I copied the specific paragraph mentioning Cullen for you, might make it easier. It doesn't coincide with what Viscount Hawke says in dialogue in DAI though, which I already pointed out in my other post, it was just here to show how Bioware is being contradictory on the subject.

Spoiler

The Kirkwall chapter had been under Meredith’s thumbscrews for so long that they barely knew right from wrong. For all Meredith’s railing against blood magic controlling people, fear had twisted the templars’ minds just as well.

That fear only grew after the young Knight-Captain, Cullen, left the city to follow some Seeker on Chantry business. With no new orders, the Kirkwall templars floundered. There was no relief anywhere. Every day more reports of the mage rebellion came in and how templars were fighting it. Hearing them, Samson could smell the blood and smoke of the war, how the Chantry’s impossible demands on both mages and templars were tearing the world apart.

 

A few paragraphs later Samson gets shown the first vial of red lyrium so it did happen after Cullen left according to this version of events:

 

The stranger held up a lyrium vial, glowing red instead of blue. Samson eyed it sidelong, remembering Meredith’s end and the power she wielded.
“If you could tear this upstart Chantry out by the roots,” the stranger asked, “bring about a new Order, what price would you be willing to pay?”
“If it gave one templar a better end than mine,” Samson said, “I’d pour out my own blood for it. But I burned out long ago. You’re asking the wrong man.”
“I think not,” the stranger answered, holding out the vial for Samson to take. As simple as handing him a paper bird. Things began to change after that. Samson paid the stranger’s price, would pay it forever, but he knew what he was buying. So did many other like-minded templars. As for the rest of the Order… Samson looked into the face of his guilt and accepted that too. If it meant a world where the Chantry’s crimes could never happen again, so be it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, your avatar looks like a red templar horror from a distance.

I like auburn.

[Br3admax]

Well, your avatar looks like a red templar horror from a distance.

"We're both of the same breed, after all… motives for war are of no concern. Religion, ideology, resources, land, grudges, love, or just because… No matter how pathetic the reason, it's enough to start a war. War will never cease to exist… Reasons can be thought up after the fact. Human nature pursues strife."

[Xilizhra]

"We're both of the same breed, after all… motives for war are of no concern. Religion, ideology, resources, land, grudges, love, or just because… No matter how pathetic the reason, it's enough to start a war. War will never cease to exist… Reasons can be thought up after the fact. Human nature pursues strife."

I admit, I'm sympathetic to the Venatori in many ways. I even might have more fun playing as Calpernia than the Inquisitor; certainly it'd be a more challenging and dramatic game.

[Master Warder Z_]

Nagato eh?

Probably one of his better quotes.

[Boost32]

I agree with you that all this is already a major plot hole, especially in regards to red templars... Something went wrong sometime during the process where the game's script gets passed around the writers and editors
Bioware's canon includes the games and the books as well, which makes them mess up their own timelines a lot, which we have proof of previously.
I copied the specific paragraph mentioning Cullen for you, might make it easier. It doesn't coincide with what Viscount Hawke says in dialogue in DAI though, which I already pointed out in my other post, it was just here to show how Bioware is being contradictory on the subject.

Spoiler

The Kirkwall chapter had been under Meredith’s thumbscrews for so long that they barely knew right from wrong. For all Meredith’s railing against blood magic controlling people, fear had twisted the templars’ minds just as well.
That fear only grew after the young Knight-Captain, Cullen, left the city to follow some Seeker on Chantry business. With no new orders, the Kirkwall templars floundered. There was no relief anywhere. Every day more reports of the mage rebellion came in and how templars were fighting it. Hearing them, Samson could smell the blood and smoke of the war, how the Chantry’s impossible demands on both mages and templars were tearing the world apart.

A few paragraphs later Samson gets shown the first vial of red lyrium so it did happen after Cullen left according to this version of events:

The stranger held up a lyrium vial, glowing red instead of blue. Samson eyed it sidelong, remembering Meredith’s end and the power she wielded.
“If you could tear this upstart Chantry out by the roots,” the stranger asked, “bring about a new Order, what price would you be willing to pay?”
“If it gave one templar a better end than mine,” Samson said, “I’d pour out my own blood for it. But I burned out long ago. You’re asking the wrong man.”
“I think not,” the stranger answered, holding out the vial for Samson to take. As simple as handing him a paper bird. Things began to change after that. Samson paid the stranger’s price, would pay it forever, but he knew what he was buying. So did many other like-minded templars. As for the rest of the Order… Samson looked into the face of his guilt and accepted that too. If it meant a world where the Chantry’s crimes could never happen again, so be it.

I read it again, still don't see it as a confirmation that they started after Cullen left (but thats could be my text interpretation), but if it is, Jo Berry screwed up, she didn't verify previous lore before she made her short story, and I don't see it overriding what was said in game (in game lore > short story from the blog).

[Br3admax]

Nagato eh?

Probably one of his better quotes.

Should it matter? Are you Pain-ist? 

[Master Warder Z_]

Should it matter? Are you Pain-ist?

No.

But I do admit Pain had a very A list speech during the two tails extraction.

It's ultimately the same guy though.

[raging_monkey]

It's was a damn good speech got me hyped for a while

[Master Warder Z_]

Excellence shines all the brighter when surrounded by mediocrity.

A good man told me that once.

[raging_monkey]

Possibly it's too early for a wisemouth remark

[In Exile]

He leaves the templar order because they weren´t doing anything worth it after the Kirkwall´s circle fell, so with the inquisition he feels he can help the world more, i´m fine with him leaving temporarily to resolve the crisis. I´m talking more about when the game ends.

He says that some of the harsh stuff he saw as a templar disturbs him, and that "i want nothing to do with that life". To me that sounds a lot like a grey warden seeing a broodmother or ogre and going "****, this is too scary for me, i´m leaving the order. wait i´m still tainted.."

That´s the thing with Cullen, if he cures his lyrium addiction then he is no longer a templar, he effectively left the order because he no longer liked it in there, and got away with it. Do you think that sets a good precedent? Should templars be able to quit when they decide they had enough? In the military, that would be deserting.

It sounds like the lyrium addiction is what keeps them on the job, even when it becomes hard to bear, same way that the wardens put up with a lot of crap because they must - if the taint was cured, most would quit like Fiona, and do something else that fight darkspawn until they themselves become a ghoul.

I see a lot of similarities between these two orders, like both being warriors who make sacrifices, and who endure hard things normal soldiers could not. It cheapens the sacrifice if someone can just decide to quit when they no longer like it.

What do you think about Cullen and his decision to both quit the templars and taking lyrium?

No. The templars deserted the Chantry. In a civil war its a bit silly to talk about desserters. Moreover, he was recruited by the Divine (either personally or through either Cassandra or Leliana) to participate in a special task force as its military commander. I'm not clear on the timeline but from what I understand Cullen didn't leave Kirkwall to wander around alone - he left only when recruited.

[Heimdall]

"We're both of the same breed, after all… motives for war are of no concern. Religion, ideology, resources, land, grudges, love, or just because… No matter how pathetic the reason, it's enough to start a war. War will never cease to exist… Reasons can be thought up after the fact. Human nature pursues strife."

You know, I couldn't remember who made that speech so my memory started tugging at a character who spoke with similar wording... though rather different intent.

 

"You should be aware, fräulein, that there are some people in this world, some irredeemable louts, for whom the means do not require an end. I speak, of course, of myself."

 

 

Of course then I had to jump to his most infamous speech

 

"My friends, it has often been said that I like war. 

Friends, I like war. 

No, friends, I love war! 

I love holocausts. I love blitzkriegs. I love defensive lines. I love sieges, charges, I love mop-up operations, and retreats. 

Wars across prairies, in streets, in trenches, in grasslands, in frozen tundras, through deserts, on the sea, in the air, I love every act of war that can occur upon this earth. 

I love blasting the enemy to smithereens with artillery salvos that thunder across the lines of battle. 

My heart leaps with joy whenever a soldier is tossed into the air and cut to pieces by well placed sniper rounds. 

And there is nothing like a tank operator using a Tiger 88 to destroy enemy tanks. And the feeling that comes when a soldier runs screaming from his blazing tank only to be mowed down by heavy machine gun fire, is such an exquisite feeling. 

Like when ranks of infantry brandish their bayonets rushing into the enemy line. It moves me deep within my heart to watch a fresh recruit stabbing over and over into the bloated chest of a long-dead enemy. 

The sight of deserters being strung up from a street lamp is an irresistible pleasure. And there is nothing more arousing, than the sounds made by prisoners of war dropping like flies, screaming in agony as they're mowed down by ear piercing schmeissers! 

When a band of pitiful resistance fighters makes their final stand with nothing but small arms, only to have their city smashed to atoms block by block by 4.8 ton bombshells, I'm in ecstasy. 

I love it when my forces are ravaged by a Russian armored division. It's so sad to see towns and villages that were supposed to be defended at all costs, being laid to waste, their women and children being raped, and killed. 

I love to be squashed under the heel of the British and American war machines. The humiliation, as my men crawl around like vermin, ducking the yark bombers flying overhead. 

Gentlemen... All I ask for is war, a war so grand as to make Hell itself tremble. Gentlemen, I ask you as fellow brothers in arms, what is it you really want? Do you wish for further war as I do? Do you wish for a merciless, bloody war? A war whose fury is built with iron, and lightning, and fire? Do you ask for war to sweep in like a tempest, leaving not even ravens to scavenge, from this Earth!? "

Oh Major, you crazy.  I happened to have watched Hellsing Ultimate recently.  There's something strangely awing about a character that jumps this far into over-the top phsycopath territory.

 

Sorry for just posting what jumped into my head.

[Lumix19]

Possibly it's too early for a wisemouth remark

Ooh I've got one!

 

"The tyrant looks upon the world, saying, 'all this is mine.' And by force or guile, he makes it so. To the tyrant, the whole of creation is held in the relative; sun and moon revolve for him alone. For the tyrant, even justice is whimsy. He alone is fit to weigh, to measure, and to cut."
 

[CathyMe]

You know, I couldn't remember who made that speech so my memory started tugging at a character who spoke with similar wording... though rather different intent.

 

 

Of course then I had to jump to his most infamous speech

 

Oh Major, you crazy.  I happened to have watched Hellsing Ultimate recently.  There's something strangely awing about a character that jumps this far into over-the top phsycopath territory.

 

Sorry for just posting what jumped into my head.

I like the abridged version better

[Heimdall]

I like the abridged version better

That works too 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Major's final speech is better.

"Fitting it took a man with the trappings of a monster to defeat a monster with the trappings of a man."