357 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Well then, it seems like there's no winning. If he stuck with the Templars, he's a dupe that ends up dead, and if he leaves to do something a little better than sticking with his fellow dupes, he's a deserter or something. Whatevs.

[raging_monkey]

Well then, it seems like there's no winning. If he stuck with the Templars, he's a dupe that ends up dead, and if he leaves to do something a little better than sticking with his fellow dupes, he's a deserter or something. Whatevs.

bsn logic can't argue it lol.

[The Baconer]

She didn't.

The Divine did.

 

Impressed by his integrity and what he had accomplished since Meredith's death, Cassandra offered him a position in what would become the Inquisition. “I do not care where you have faltered—only that you stand here now," she said. “But this is not an order. The choice is yours.”

 

 

What Lambert demanded meant nothing, because he died the same day the vote was hold and the march to Andoral's Reach never happened anyway.

 

Yes, the plan to assemble the host for marching on the keep was in place. Even if the siege never happened, the mobilization of a larger Templar army did, which the Gallows' Templars never participated in.

 

There are templars who voted to leave the Chantry and stayed in their city: http://dragonage.wik...smal's_Templars

 

What says that the Templars who stayed voted for anything? Answering the Lord Seeker's call is a commitment to the war, and these Templars didn't answer the call.

[Boost32]

Well then, it seems like there's no winning. If he stuck with the Templars, he's a dupe that ends up dead, and if he leaves to do something a little better than sticking with his fellow dupes, he's a deserter or something. Whatevs.

The problem was he leaving after he voted to leave the Chantry, he led his subordinates to war and left, thats what a coward would do.
Look at the Hasmal templars, their Knight-commander voted to leave but didn't abandon them: http://www.google.co...dsbCFQwU3VecoaQ
http://www.google.co...soTLl-hMg0ILtEg

[Boost32]

Yes, the plan to assemble the host for marching on the keep was in place. Even if the siege never happened, the mobilization of a larger Templar army did, which the Gallows' Templars never participated in.



What says that the Templars who stayed voted for anything? Answering the Lord Seeker's call is a commitment to the war, and these Templars didn't answer the call.

Again, there are others who didn't left their city but left the Chantry.


"Although they split from the Chantry, most of Hasmal's templars chose to stay at their Circle"

[Br3admax]

His brothers, 

A lot of them joined the Inquisition with him, so...

his command 

General and Commander of the Inquisition, so...

and kirkwall and it's citizens.

 His duty is to the Chantry. The Templars should have never been running things there anyway, so...

[Master Warder Z_]

Cassandra herself also said that until the accord was dissolved the Seekers didn't command the Templars, and while the timeline here is a little iffy she did have mandate from the Divine.

I'm assuming that's the authority she invoked.

[The Baconer]

"Although they split from the Chantry, most of Hasmal's templars chose to stay at their Circle"

 

Which does not indicate that they voted on anything, least of all in the Lord Seeker's presence.

 

On second thought, I feel like we might need an actual source indicating the Templar split was ever put to a vote. The epilogue of Asunder makes no such mention of one.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well then, it seems like there's no winning. If he stuck with the Templars, he's a dupe that ends up dead, and if he leaves to do something a little better than sticking with his fellow dupes, he's a deserter or something. Whatevs.

It's about like Wynne said.

Actions have consequence.

[The Baconer]

Cassandra herself also said that until the accord was dissolved the Seekers didn't command the Templars, and while the timeline here is a little iffy she did have mandate from the Divine.

I'm assuming that's the authority she invoked.

 

A mandate of the Divine and Chantry is more legitimate than the mandate of a rogue organization.

[Boost32]

Which does not indicate that they voted on anything, least of all in the Lord Seeker's presence.

On second thought, I feel like we might need an actual source indicating the Templar split was ever put to a vote. The epilogue of Asunder makes no such mention of one.

"The story ends with Lord Seeker Lambert hosting a conclave with fifteen Knight-Commanders who agree with his proposals."

http://dragonage.wik...on_Age:_Asunder

So the knight-Commander from Hasmal agreed to leave the Chantry, as did Cullen (there are only 15 Circles in Thedas, barring the ones from Tevinter).

[KaiserShep]

It's about like Wynne said.

Actions have consequence.

 

 

Then I guess it doesn't really matter, because Cullen leaving turned out to be the better option than sticking with Kirkwall's occupying force of usurpers or whatevers.

[Master Warder Z_]

A mandate of the Divine and Chantry is more legitimate than the mandate of a rogue organization.

Take it up with Gaider.

I'm not in position to dictate things he wrote.

I also thankfully have more hair.

[Boost32]

Then I guess it doesn't really matter, because Cullen leaving turned out to be the better option than sticking with Kirkwall's occupying force of usurpers or whatevers.

With the exception he allowed them to be corrupted by the Red Templars, who killed several peoples.

[Master Warder Z_]

Then I guess it doesn't really matter, because Cullen leaving turned out to be the better option than sticking with Kirkwall's occupying force of usurpers or whatevers.

I wouldn't call abandoning his post to the ravages of a major terrorist attack, rebellion and red lyrium a better option but that's me.

[The Baconer]

The story ends with Lord Seeker Lambert hosting a conclave with fifteen Knight-Commanders who agree with his proposals.

http://dragonage.wik...on_Age:_Asunder

So the knight-Commander from Hasmal agreed to leave the Chantry, as did Cullen (there are only 15 Circles in Thedas, barring the ones from Tevinter).

 

The book reads that "not a single one had raised a voice in protest" and that "those who had private reservations would either remain silent or be replaced".

 

At most, they (meaning those who remained at their Circles) listened to his spiel and then summarily ignored him.

[The Baconer]

Take it up with Gaider.

I'm not in position to dictate things he wrote.

I also thankfully have more hair.

 

Why would I take anything up with Gaider when nothing in his canon would establish Cullen as a deserter?

[Boost32]

The book reads that "not a single one had raised a voice in protest" and that "those who had private reservations would either remain silent or be replaced".
 
At most, they (meaning those who remained at their Circles) listened to his spiel and then summarily ignored him.

If they ignored they would be replaced, Cullen was the Commander after one year of war, so he couldn't have ignored him.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why would I take anything up with Gaider when nothing in his canon would establish Cullen as a deserter?

Seemed to me that wasn't the topic.

Your arguing legitimacy of separation.

Going so far as calling the separated Seekers and Templars as a rogue organization.

Regardless of their right to actually do just that.

[Cantina]

And he left his subordinate to fight a war he helped to start and to be corrupted by the Red Templars, he betrayed them.

 

(Face palms)

 

This has to be thee most uneducated answer I have seen on these forums in a long time and a poor attempt at trying to convey a valid response. 

 

Cullen was not responsible for the destruction of The Chantry nor was he responsible for Meredith becoming a red lyrium zealot nut.

 

After the events in Kirkwall Cullen took charge to help restore order in Kirkwall. However the damage reached far beyond Kirkwall.

 

Cullen's so call subordinates were the ones who told The Chantry to well, go to hell. Thus Cullen had NO subordinates to follow.

 

The Order is suppose to serve The Chantry, not themselves. When The Order chose to abandon The Chantry, Cullen left.

 

As for the Red Lyrium: it started in Kirkwall. Cory had Samson lace the blue lyrium the Kirkwall Templars were taking with Red Lyrium. Once the transformation was complete the red templars were handed over to Samson.

 

So what do you think would have happened to Cullen if he stayed in Kirkwall and remained with the Templars?

 

Cullen probably would have drank blue lyrium laced with red lyrium, become a monster and end up as Samson and Cory's butt monkey.

 

Cullen of course had no idea this was going to happen to Kirkwall's Templars - he after all is no fortune teller.

 

The bottom line is: calling Cullen a betrayer, a deserted or whatever else, just means that either, A. you do not know the meaning of the word and/or B. your quick to make acquisitions without providing factual evidence to back up your claim.

[The Baconer]

If they ignored they would be replaced,

 

By whom? That is Lambert's internal monologue, a.k.a his own ego speaking.

[The Baconer]

Seemed to me that wasn't the topic.

Your arguing legitimacy of separation.

Going so far as calling the separated Seekers and Templars as a rogue organization.

Regardless of their right to actually do just that.

 

They officially have the right to separate, but whether or not the various kingdoms would actually allow them to wage war as independent organizations within their borders is another question (spoiler: no). Rendering them rogue organizations in practice.

[Master Warder Z_]

End results don't dismiss charges.

And shouldn't.

Just because your position is a failing one, if you have been ordered to remain you do. It's a simple expectation.

If you are the only authority figure left in a ravaged city, you don't abandon it to go play baby sitter across the ocean at a peace conference.

[Boost32]

By whom? That is Lambert's internal monologue, a.k.a his own ego speaking.

And where its stated he didn't vote? Every Knight-Commander left the Chantry.

snip

Should be me who did the facepalm, because you don't know what you are talking about.

The Red Templars started corrupting the Kirkwall's templars before Cullen left. If Hawke is the Viscount they attack him, then he left Kirkwall (at the time Cullen was still in command). Cullen only left Kirkwall when Cassandra arrived looking for Hawke, by that time, Hawke was already gone.

[Master Warder Z_]

They officially have the right to separate, but whether or not the various kingdoms would actually allow them to wage war as independent organizations within their borders is another question (spoiler: no). Rendering them rogue organizations in practice.

Your assumption.

Not lore or practice.

Hell Fereldan opened up to a bunch of mages, would the Templar order, the beacon of protection and just for a millennia not receive that either?

And ultimately no known nation took issue with their campaign across Thedas to the extent of actually combating it.

Thus rendering the argument moot.