357 réponses à ce sujet

[ComedicSociopathy]

End results don't dismiss charges.

And shouldn't.

Just because your position is a failing one, if you have been ordered to remain you do. It's a simple expectation.

If you are the only authority figure left in a ravaged city, you don't abandon it to go play baby sitter across the ocean at a peace conference.

 

Can't you say the exact same thing about Corin who abandoned the Templars so he could be in-charge of a group of cultists that were trying to corrupt his fellow Seekers? 

 

Also, Cullen wasn't the only military authority in Kirkwall, Aveline was commanding the city's defenses after or even before Cullen left. 

[The Baconer]

And where its stated he didn't vote? Every Knight-Commander left the Chantry.

 

Where is it stated that I am not a unicorn?

 

 

Your assumption.

Not lore or practice.

Hell Fereldan opened up to a bunch of mages, would the Templar order, the beacon of protection and just for a millennia not receive that either?

 

They didn't.

 

 

And ultimately no known nation took issue with their campaign across Thedas to the extent of actually combating it.

 

No nation who hosted most of the fighting was in a position to suppress them.

 

In Ferelden, we are celebrated for indiscriminately killing every mage and Templar that refuses to yield.

[KaiserShep]

And at least Aveline was what I would consider to be a legitimate authority to represent whatever was left of Kirkwall's government. Heck, Seneschal Bran didn't die, and it's not like the nobility all but vanished. With the city guard intact a new government can establish itself without the Templars' interference.

[Master Warder Z_]

Can't you say the exact same thing about Corin

Yes.

And do.

[AtreiyaN7]

End results don't dismiss charges.

And shouldn't.

Just because your position is a failing one, if you have been ordered to remain you do. It's a simple expectation.

If you are the only authority figure left in a ravaged city, you don't abandon it to go play baby sitter across the ocean at a peace conference.

 

Oh, and I suppose war crimes are okay because the people who committed them were just following orders like good little soldiers, eh? Sometimes a person's conscience and doing what's right are a little more important than following orders or going down with a sinking ship just because you think they should show blind obedience regardless of the circumstances. If something is pretty clearly wrong with the upper echelons of your military organization, you probably shouldn't just shut up and take it.

[raging_monkey]

Oh now this got interesting

[Master Warder Z_]

Doing something so mundane...so subjective as what's "right" doesn't enter into duty.

That's why orders exist.

Because orders go beyond personal belief or expectation.

Again it's a simple concept.

[Boost32]

Where is it stated that I am not a unicorn?

So you have no proof and zero knight-commander stayed with the Chantry, but ofc Cullen stayed.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Yes.

And do.

 

So, your saying the reigning leader of the entire Templar Order was a traitorous deserter and an utter failure as an authority figure?

 

My god, there's hope for you yet. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Oh now this got interesting

No.

No it isn't.

It's the all too common civilian belief that somehow they understand things better then those who serve.

It's arrogance.

Not interesting.

[Master Warder Z_]

So, your saying the reigning leader of the entire Templar Order was a traitorous deserter and an utter failure as an authority figure?

My god, there's hope for you yet.

I didn't ever claim Corrin didn't need to die.

He's worse then Cullen.

Cullen just went and abandoned his post.

Corrin obliterated his own men due to the very ideology that shouldn't be present at high command.

[Boost32]

So, your saying the reigning leader of the entire Templar Order was a traitorous deserter and an utter failure as an authority figure?

My god, there's hope for you yet.

He was not the leader of the templars, the Envy demon ordered the death of the true leader of the templars, Knight-Vigillant Trentwatch.

[Master Warder Z_]

If actual Templar and Seeker leadership survived maybe things would have been diffrent.

But the narrative is what it is.

[The Baconer]

So you have no proof and zero knight-commander stayed with the Chantry, but ofc Cullen stayed.

 

You're asking me to prove a negative?

 

Nowhere is it implied that there was a vote, only that no one spoke out against Lambert's proposal. The majority of the Templars did indeed join the Seekers in waging war against the mages, and Lambert formally declared the Nevarran accords null and void, officially separating the Templars from the Chantry. Given the context, there's no indication that the Templars who stayed behind like those at Hasmal or Cullen actually actively agreed to anything Lambert proposed or had any desire to participate in the war.

[raging_monkey]

No.

No it isn't.

It's the all too common civilian belief that somehow they understand things better then those who serve.

It's arrogance.

Not interesting.

I beg to differ shouldn't right wrong be taken into account for ethical situations? Is it not arrogance for those who serve to assume they know "what is best"... so yes very interesting

[ComedicSociopathy]

He was not the leader of the templars, the Envy demon ordered the death of the true leader of the templars, Knight-Vigillant Trentwatch.

 

And right after Knight-Vigilant Trentwatch was secretly killed the templars put Corin or the envy demon in charge, making them now the leader. 

[Sifr]

Wait, are we really arguing that... Cassandra going to Kirkwall and offering Cullen a job in the Inquisition, an organisation that the Divine had sanctioned and given Leliana and Cassandra full autonomy in creating and recruiting whomever they deemed fit... this somehow qualifies a desertion of his post?

 

Err... what?

[Master Warder Z_]

I beg to differ shouldn't right wrong be taken into account for ethical situations?

Both of those are subjective and go into concepts that don't exist in Thedas.

There is no Geneva conventions or bill of rights, no European accord of war, there is a code of conduct that is briefly mentioned by Krem and nothing more.

So I'd argue it's even more imperative to follow the chain of command in Thedas.

Illegal orders aside obviously.

[Boost32]

And right after Knight-Vigilant Trentwatch was secretly killed the templars put Corin or the envy demon in charge, making them now the leader.

Thats because the remaining high ranks templars were corrupted, tho ones who werent, were sent to the Conclave and died.

[Master Warder Z_]

Wait, are we really arguing that... Cassandra going to Kirkwall and offering Cullen a job in the Inquisition, an organisation that the Divine had sanctioned and given Leliana and Cassandra full autonomy in creating and recruiting whomever they deemed fit... this somehow qualifies a desertion of his post?

Err... what?

I'd call it abandonment of post personally.

But it would classify him as a deserter yes.

[AtreiyaN7]

Doing something so mundane...so subjective as what's "right" doesn't enter into duty.

That's why orders exist.

Because orders go beyond personal belief or expectation.

Again it's a simple concept.

 

No, it's not - because blind obedience in every situation is just plain stupid. I'd respect someone with both the brains and the guts to leave - especially when he evidently had the right to resign like Cullen did - more than I would your weirdly idealized version of a soldier who should stick around no matter what and who should apparently say yessir to every questionable order that comes down from clearly bad leadership (hi again, demon impersonating Seeker Lucius *wave*).

[Boost32]

Dragon age is not this day and age.
And there are templars who remained and didn't followed Lucius.

[Master Warder Z_]

No, it's not - because blind obedience in every situation

Is what's called for when you pledge yourself to something greater then the individual You.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Dragon age is not this day and age.
And there are templars who remained and didn't followed Lucius.

 

Doesn't that make them guilty of disobedience and perhaps even worthy of a court martial because of their blatant refusal to fellow Corin's order to muster at Theirnfall? 

[KaiserShep]

So I'd argue it's even more imperative to follow the chain of command in Thedas.

 

With zero exceptions? Well, I guess if the world's gonna end, let it end by the book.