357 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Honestly people are aluminium when they need to be iron.

Iron is good, not as good as rarer heavy metals and rare earths...

Polonium aside for obvious reasons.

[Boost32]

Doesn't that make them guilty of disobedience and perhaps even worthy of a court martial because of their blatant refusal to fellow Corin's order to muster at Theirnfall?

No because Corin is not the leader of the templars and the Knight-Commander of Hasmal didn't recgonize him as such.

[Master Warder Z_]

Doesn't that make them guilty of disobedience and perhaps even worthy of a court martial because of their blatant refusal to fellow Corin's order to muster at Theirnfall?

Don't they die anyway?

Your talking about the holdouts in Fereldan right?

[Sifr]

I'd call it abandonment of post personally.

But it would classify him as a deserter yes.

 

While the Seekers might not lead the Templars, the Divine is everyone's boss, so Cassandra offering him a job in something that the Divine set up, really isn't like he's bailing out completely? It's also unlikely that he left without handing in any notice and having a replacement take over from him?

 

Besides, people in the military get promoted or transferred all the time, is that still desertion and abandoning their brothers? Course not?

[Boost32]

Don't they die anyway?

No, Hasmal templars live if you do the mage or the templars quest, they are involved in a war table mission.

[AtreiyaN7]

Dragon age is not this day and age.
And there are templars who remained and didn't followed Lucius.

 

Irrelevant (also, I edited "this day and age" out since I realized someone like you would nitpick over that) - Cullen was entitled to leave, and regardless of whether or not the time period is some vaguely medieval era or something closer to the present, the fact remains that conscience does and should matter. Sure, there were people like Ser Barris who stayed - and what good would that have done?

 

If not for the Inquisitor showing up, the good Templars like Ser Barris would ultimately have been slaughtered or forcefully converted into red Templars. What I think is that some people might want to employ a little logic instead of pretending that things would be hunky-dory if everyone would just follow their orders. Yeah, keep following those orders - right until you're ordered to take red lyrium and voluntarily turn yourself into a monster. *rolleyes*
 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Is what's called for when you pledge yourself to something greater then the individual You.

 

Aren't the templars also sworn to protect mages, the common people, the Chantry and the Divine? What if those pledges clearly conflict with one another and obeying one requires you to forsake the other? Shouldn't those issues be factored in a templar's sense of duty and idea about who they are supposed to serve? 

[The Baconer]

This is why the Seekers as they were shouldn't have existed.

[raging_monkey]

Both of those are subjective and go into concepts that don't exist in Thedas.

There is no Geneva conventions or bill of rights, no European accord of war, there is a code of conduct that is briefly mentioned by Krem and nothing more.

So I'd argue it's even more imperative to follow the chain of command in Thedas.

Illegal orders aside obviously.

wouldn't the lack of those create "drones"

[Master Warder Z_]

While the Seekers might not lead the Templars, the Divine is everyone's boss, so Cassandra offering him a job in something that the Divine set up, really isn't like he's bailing out completely? It's also unlikely that he left without handing in any notice and having a replacement take over from him?

Besides, people in the military get promoted or transferred all the time, is that still desertion and abandoning their brothers? Course not?

It wouldn't have been if he hadn't left the order to join. I'd grant the point but beyond that.

Look at what happened to Kirkwall after he abandoned it. Red lyrium, infighting, plagiarism.

It needed him.

The Templars there needed him.

The people there needed him.

And he ran off to join peace talks.

[Boost32]

Irrelevant (also, I edited "this day and age" out since I realized someone like you would nitpick over that) - Cullen was entitled to leave, and regardless of whether or not the time period is some vaguely medieval era or something closer to the present, the fact remains that conscience does and should matter. Sure, there were people like Ser Barris who stayed - and what good would that have done?

If not for the Inquisitor showing up, the good Templars like Ser Barris would ultimately have been slaughtered or forcefully converted into red Templars. What I think is that some people might want to employ a little logic instead of pretending that things would be hunky-dory if everyone would just follow their orders. Yeah, keep following those orders - right until you're ordered to take red lyrium and voluntarily turn yourself into a monster. *rolleyes*

He still a deserter who left his subordinates to be corrupted.


I'm not taking about Barris, I'm talking about Hasmal templars who are alive even if you side with the mages.

[Master Warder Z_]

wouldn't the lack of those create "drones"

You don't need to be a individual to fight as a soldier, you can quote philosophy after.

[ComedicSociopathy]

No because Corin is not the leader of the templars and the Knight-Commander of Hasmal didn't recgonize him as such.

 

So that means that every single templar at the Redoubt is a traitor or deserter following a man/demon that officially has no authority.

 

Jeez, I knew templars could be bad at following the rules of their own organization but this takes the cake. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Is what's called for when you pledge yourself to something greater then the individual You.

 

Shutting off your brain isn't supposed to be part of pledging yourself to something greater than "You." I can only assume you're trolling at this point - that, or you really believe that being stupidly obedient is good thing.

[raging_monkey]

You don't need to be a individual to fight as a soldier, you can quote philosophy after.

like I said interesting hehe

[raging_monkey]

Shutting off your brain isn't supposed to be part of pledging yourself to something greater than "You." I can only assume you're trolling at this point - that, or you really believe that being stupidly obedient is good thing.

it's complicated

[KaiserShep]

It wouldn't have been if he hadn't left the order to join. I'd grant the point but beyond that.

Look at what happened to Kirkwall after he abandoned it. Red lyrium, infighting, plagiarism.

It needed him.

The Templars there needed him.

The people there needed him.

And he ran off to join peace talks.

 

Cullen would not have been able to do anything about the red lyrium. That was always going to happen with or without his intervention.

[Boost32]

So that means that every single templar at the Redoubt is a traitor or deserter following a man/demon that officially has no authority.
 
Jeez, I knew templars could be bad at following the rules of their own organization but this takes the cake.

No, they followed their Commander, who recgonized Lucius as their leader, ofc those Commander were corrupted and led the rank and file to be corrupted.
Those Commander are traitors and derserve to die, the rank and file don't.

[Master Warder Z_]

Aren't the templars also sworn to protect mages, the common people, the Chantry and the Divine? What if those pledges clearly conflict with one another and obeying one requires you to forsake the other?

Thankfully that's not up for the rank and file to decide.

It's why they have a system of command.

For example.

If the Divine ordered a village burned and the Knight Vigilant disagreed then it likely would become decision of the regional knight commander.

Either way they decided they would be acting mandate of a superior.

Beyond that.

It's all situational and subject to chain of command.

[Sifr]

It wouldn't have been if he hadn't left the order to join. I'd grant the point but beyond that.

Look at what happened to Kirkwall after he abandoned it. Red lyrium, infighting, plagiarism.

It needed him.

The Templars there needed him.

The people there needed him.

And he ran off to join peace talks.

 

The Red Lyrium was already spreading across the Gallows from what Varric implies, so it's not like it was really being used as a Circle anymore, even if there were some Loyalist mages remaining? The Templars were also too busy to probably spend much time in the Gallows as well?

 

While the Templar presence was helping manage things, preventing infighting is the job of the city guard, not the Templars. As long as whoever replaced him was still co-ordinating with Aveline to keep the peace and rebuild the city, they didn't need him holding their hands.

 

Yes, Warder, because wanting peace is bad? Here's a novel idea, perhaps if they'd had peace, no-one would have been fighting in Kirkwall?

 

I'm a fan of Cullen but even I have to say, dial down the man crush, he's not Superman or Atlas, holding Kirkwall up on his shoulders?

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Shutting off your brain isn't supposed to be part of pledging yourself to something greater than "You." I can only assume you're trolling at this point - that, or you really believe that being stupidly obedient is good thing.

And this is why people of your mindset end up in prisons for insubordination or worse.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Red Lyrium was already spreading across the Gallows from what Varric implies, so it's not like it was really being used as a Circle anymore, even if there were some Loyalist mages remaining? The Templars were also too busy to probably spend much time in the Gallows as well?

While the Templar presence was helping manage things, preventing infighting is the job of the city guard, not the Templars. As long as whoever replaced him was still co-ordinating with Aveline to rebuild the city, they didn't need him holding their hands.

Yes, Warder, because wanting peace is bad? Here's a novel idea, perhaps if they'd had peace, no-one would have been fighting in Kirkwall?

I'm a fan of Cullen but even I have to say, dial down the man crush, he's not Superman or Atlas, holding Kirkwall up on his shoulders?

As active knight commander he was the highest ranking official in the city.

Militarily or Chantry.

No replacement to my knowledge was selected.

So yes I'd argue without prerequisite knowledge or hell even with it he could have done more good there then at Haven.

[AtreiyaN7]

He still a deserter who left his subordinates to be corrupted.


I'm not taking about Barris, I'm talking about Hasmal templars who are alive even if you side with the mages.

 

And he's not a deserter, given the whole letter of resignation thing (presumably, his resignation was accepted). Deserters are people who go AWOL - they're NOT people who resign their commission and get permission to leave. I'm assuming that Cullen basically got the equivalent of an honorable discharge.

 

Also, it doesn't matter to me that you're talking about the Hasmal Templars; I don't know anything about them and don't really care because I'm talking about the "good" Templars that we see in DA:I itself (they're the only ones who are relevant to me). Things clearly don't go well for people like Ser Barris, especially not when (per the info at Therinfal) the officers who could not be corrupted/controlled were summarily assassinated/executed because they wouldn't fall in line with the whole red Templar idea.

 

If the red Templars in the game had won out, how long do you think those Hasmal ones you were talking about would last? They'd probably have ended up dead OR red - so good on Cullen for leaving and joining the one organization that actually had a hope in hell of stopping the red Templars.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

I always got the impression that he wrote the letter as more of a courtesy than anything else. After everything that had happened in Kirkwall, I doubt his resignation would have been accepted. 

[KaiserShep]

I wonder what would have happened if zero Templars joined the Inquisition. Very likely nothing good.