357 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

And this is why people of your mindset end up in prisons for insubordination or worse.

idk some do alright and I believe those are extreme cases.

[Master Warder Z_]

idk some do alright and I believe those are extreme cases.

You need to see more recruits gripe and then get sent to the brig for a week or two.

Strangely enough in my experience they are much more accepting of orders then.

Seriously you are pledging your life to a military body, some expectations have to have occurred by then.

[Sifr]

As active knight commander he was the highest ranking official in the city.

Militarily or Chantry.

No replacement to my knowledge was selected.

So yes I'd argue without prerequisite knowledge or hell even with it he could have done more good there then at Haven.

 

I think we saw how well Kirkwall prospered when Meredith tried to play tinpot dictator and use her authority as "highest ranking official" in Kirkwall to try and impose order and bring stability to the city... I'm somewhat reminded of that quote, that those who don't remember history are doomed to something something? How did it go again?

 

Cullen's a little finicky and something of a workaholic, do you really think that he would have left without setting up a replacement?

 

Keep in mind that we saw in DA2 that Aveline, the Templars and Hawke were often doing everything they could to keep the peace and things still blew up frequently, I don't think we can say that Cullen's lack of presence in the city really would have changed things one way or another, compared to whomever took the job after him? Sebastian attempts to annex the city as well, so it's hardly like his leaving would have prevented that from happening either?

 

[raging_monkey]

You need to see more recruits gripe and then get sent to the brig for a week or two.

Strangely enough in my experience they are much more accepting of orders then.

Seriously you are pledging your life to a military body, some expectations have to have occurred by then.

possibly

[The Baconer]

It seems that one of the most significant factors is that the Seekers operated from a position that makes no logistical sense for the greater system.

They were afforded a staggering amount of power within the system, but with no accountability or checks and balances to mitigate that power. The accords remained unchained, ultimately giving them the authority to sever both their order and the Templars from that he Chantry.

Allowing a group to exist on such a manner is a nightmare of hierarchy waiting to happen... and it did. The Chantry should have amended the Accords a long time ago.

[AtreiyaN7]

And this is why people of your mindset end up in prisons for insubordination or worse.

 

I'm a book designer and not a soldier, so I'm pretty sure that I'm not headed for prison because I occasionally refuse to follow some author's orders that I insert an error-filled edit and either fix the errors myself OR tell them to go fix their problem(s) if they screw up too often.

 

Whenever I refuse to do what an author ill-advisedly insists upon, I am generally saving them from looking like complete idiots - despite the fact that I should really just shut up and insert their edits as is or do what they want. Unfortunately for me, my conscience tends to scream at me that I should make sure that things are done correctly and that I should dissuade these people from making bad choices.

 

You know what happened last week? I could have followed "orders" and just formatted this one author's horrid manuscript as is. Instead, I globally fixed exactly 3,012 comma-related errors that would have made him look like an illiterate buffoon had the manuscript gone into print with those particular errors, all because my conscience said I should maybe take pity on him and help him out just a little bit (by rights, I was entitled to completely ignore all his problems). That author still has a pile of other errors to fix, and I issued a warning about him needing professional editing.

 

And finally, as someone whose father, uncle, grandfather, and great-something grandfather served in the military, I like to think that they would have followed their consciences if presented with a choice between doing something completely unconscionable and doing what was morally right (especially since my uncle worked on a nuclear sub for a while).

[Boost32]

And he's not a deserter, given the whole letter of resignation thing (presumably, his resignation was accepted). Deserters are people who go AWOL - they're NOT people who resign their commission and get permission to leave. I'm assuming that Cullen basically got the equivalent of an honorable discharge.

Also, it doesn't matter to me that you're talking about the Hasmal Templars; I don't know anything about them and don't really care because I'm talking about the "good" Templars that we see in DA:I itself (they're the only ones who are relevant to me). Things clearly don't go well for people like Ser Barris, especially not when (per the info at Therinfal) the officers who could not be corrupted/controlled were summarily assassinated/executed because they wouldn't fall in line with the whole red Templar idea.

If the red Templars in the game had won out, how long do you think those Hasmal ones you were talking about would last? They'd probably have ended up dead OR red - so good on Cullen for leaving and joining the one organization that actually had a hope in hell of stopping the red Templars.

His letter is not confirmed to be accepted.

The Hasmal templars are good templars from DAI, and they would resist very long, because if you do the mage quest they still around.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm a book designer and not a soldier

That explains it.

[raging_monkey]

Still interesting

[EmperorSahlertz]

That's your point?

It really isn't much of one.

Yeah, well, so far your entire argument has been tied up to the idea that Thedas deals with resignations the EXACT same way military in the US does. Besides, accepting a resignation is pretty much just a formality, unless you are deployed. You also jumps to every conclusion you possibly can to paint Cullen as a deserter, even though we don't have enough information to reach that conclusion. All we know is that Cullen left the Templar Order, that's it. No more, no less.

[Lumix19]

You need to see more recruits gripe and then get sent to the brig for a week or two.

Strangely enough in my experience they are much more accepting of orders then.

Seriously you are pledging your life to a military body, some expectations have to have occurred by then.

This isn't meant to be antagonistic Warder but wasn't your experience 20 years ago?

That explains it.

I think I can safely say most people here aren't soldiers. In fact I don't think most people globally are, or have ever been, soldiers.

[MadMadCarl]

I would leave the order as well, at least after seen what he saw, a knight commander drunk of power and a mage turning in a pride demon and possesing everyone? Who wants something to do with that? plus where he could return? if most of templars are red templars by now.

[AtreiyaN7]

His letter is not confirmed to be accepted.

The Hasmal templars are good templars from DAI, and they would resist very long, because if you do the mage quest they still around.

 

Oh, them. Now I know who you're talking about (sorry, I didn't recall their names - it's been months since the last time I did some of my earlier war table missions). Yes, they stayed and seemed to be a decent bunch, but the fact remains that they would have been on the chopping block and would have eventually been forced to take red lyrium or die if Lucius' main forces had reached them.

 

So if/when that hypothetically happened, what would your position be? That they should stick around and take red lyrium - as ordered - or that they should disobey those orders? I mean, do you seriously think they'd be able to put up a fight? Because if the Inquisition weren't around, I suspect that Cory's plans would have gone off without a hitch and that he and his red Templars (and that demon army) would have crushed anyone who tried to resist.

 

EDIT: Oops, forgot - that letter isn't confirmed to be accepted, but it certainly seems logical to believe that it was. Cullen has never struck me as being a deserter, and he submitted what appeared to be a valid and formal request.

[Master Warder Z_]

This isn't meant to be antagonistic Warder but wasn't your experience 20 years ago?

February 1st 2000 through September of 2007.

So it's a decade not two.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, well, so far your entire argument has been tied up to the idea that Thedas deals with resignations the EXACT same way military in the US does

No.

They still hang deserters in Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No.

They still hang deserters in Thedas.

So? You still don't know WHAT qualifies as a deserter, much less wether or not Cullen is one.

[AtreiyaN7]

That explains it.

 

What, that I'm both articulate and capable of using logic? Yep, that's me! However, I still don't have a good explanation for your obstinate insistence that people should follow orders just because. By your way of thinking, people should basically go "Hurr-durr, I will follow ALL orders given to me, even if ordered to jump off a cliff to my doom like a lemming*, SIR!" no matter what the circumstances may be.

 

*NOTE: It's not actually true that lemmings mindlessly commit mass suicide, but it's still funny mental imagery.

[Master Warder Z_]

So? You still don't know WHAT qualifies as a deserter, much less wether or not Cullen is one.

True.

But that argument works on the inverse.

[Bugsie]

That they should stick around and take red lyrium - as ordered - or that they should disobey those orders? I mean, do you seriously think they'd be able to put up a fight? Because if the Inquisition weren't around, I suspect that Cory's plans would have gone off without a hitch and that he and his red Templars (and that demon army) would have crushed anyone who tried to resist.

Actually that is pretty much what happened with the Red Templar army we ended up with.  They followed orders to take it - many did so willingly and even after knowing full well what the end would be (so they were not all forced as asserted by some - this is in Jo Berry's story), so they were extremely loyal to their own detriment.  Many others followed out of ignorance and following orders.

[Master Warder Z_]

What, that I'm both articulate and capable of using logic?

No.

[EmperorSahlertz]

True.

But that argument works on the inverse.

Indeed. But you don't see me jumping to conclusions and preach them like gospel.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

What, that I'm both articulate and capable of using logic? Yep, that's me! However, I still don't have a good explanation for your obstinate insistence that people should follow orders just because. By your way of thinking, people should basically go "Hurr-durr, I will follow ALL orders given to me, even if ordered to jump off a cliff to my doom like a lemming*, SIR!" no matter what the circumstances may be.

 

*NOTE: It's not actually true that lemmings mindlessly commit mass suicide, but it's still funny mental imagery.

 

Come on, you have to admit that when it comes to following orders it is a hell of a lot different in a military career than in a civilian career. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Indeed. But you don't see me jumping to conclusions and preach them like gospel.

Not you no.

[Sifr]

Considering that Meredith basically accuses of all her Templars of treason against her, one could make the (joking) argument that she'd accepted all their resignations and none of them are technically employed as Templars anymore?

 

But to be honest, since the Circle has already fallen for the most part, what does that even mean in terms of their service? Aside from the few loyalists remaining, aren't they just now guarding a mostly empty building? It's not unreasonable to think that with the Circle annulled and with no apparent plans to re-establish it in sight, whether they're still employed in any kind of official capacity?

 

Regardless, the severing of the Nevarran Accord and the Templars going rogue means that his oaths are basically null and void? After all, he swore to serve the Chantry, the Divine and the Templars, all of whom are now at odds with each other? Should we label all those who picked various sides in the conflict as being deserters or traitors then?

[BansheeOwnage]

It's the all too common civilian belief that somehow they understand things better then those who serve.

It's arrogance.

Well one person certainly seems arrogant. I know for a fact that not every soldier agrees with you. They don't all think everyone should always follow all orders - that's ridiculous. Are you going to say those aren't "true soldiers"?
 I wouldn't be surprised if you tried. I'll just speak for myself and say that the Nazi soldiers who disobeyed orders to do horrendous things > the ones who didn't. Yes, it's a lot more complicated than that, but that's generally true.

 

Anyway, to quote Shepard: I have no use for soldiers who can't think for themselves.