357 réponses à ce sujet

[ModernAcademic]

He leaves the templar order because they weren´t doing anything worth it after the Kirkwall´s circle fell, so with the inquisition he feels he can help the world more, i´m fine with him leaving temporarily to resolve the crisis. I´m talking more about when the game ends.

He says that some of the harsh stuff he saw as a templar disturbs him, and that "i want nothing to do with that life". To me that sounds a lot like a grey warden seeing a broodmother or ogre and going "****, this is too scary for me, i´m leaving the order. wait i´m still tainted.."

That´s the thing with Cullen, if he cures his lyrium addiction then he is no longer a templar, he effectively left the order because he no longer liked it in there, and got away with it. Do you think that sets a good precedent? Should templars be able to quit when they decide they had enough? In the military, that would be deserting.

It sounds like the lyrium addiction is what keeps them on the job, even when it becomes hard to bear, same way that the wardens put up with a lot of crap because they must - if the taint was cured, most would quit like Fiona, and do something else that fight darkspawn until they themselves become a ghoul.

I see a lot of similarities between these two orders, like both being warriors who make sacrifices, and who endure hard things normal soldiers could not. It cheapens the sacrifice if someone can just decide to quit when they no longer like it.

What do you think about Cullen and his decision to both quit the templars and taking lyrium?

 

Kirkwall's Circle fell. Innocent people died on the streets. Can't you see why I want nothing to do with that life?

 

Add to that:

An apostate blew up the Chantry, the Knight-Commander went mad...other than that, it was fine.

 

And I think that pretty much sums it up. The Order imploded for various reasons: wrongdoing, abuses, corruption, omission from authority, injustices being overlooked, etc.

Meredith was supposed to halt the mage rebellion. Somehow, she was incapable to. Her leadership caused dissension among the templars themselves and the strong oppression mages suffered led them to rebel. I believe with or without a martyr (Anders), the city would have had a mage-templar war, anyhow.

 

Cullen was caught amidst this unstable scenario. It evolved to such a chaotic state he was unable to remain in the Order for long.

[dragonflight288]

This has been a fascinating debate. Been awhile since I've been on. My laptop crashed and I'm using my phone right now.

I don't see Cullen as a deserter. Rather, I see every Templar who chose to abandon the chantry to wage war for purely dogmatic reasons to be the traitors.

They betrayed the principles their Order was founded on, betrayed the very people they swore an oath to protect, and the mandate the Templars swore, to protect the world from magic and mages from the world.

Willingly following a demon and an ancient dark spawn magister pretty much destroys every aspect of what they represented.

[AtreiyaN7]

Come on, you have to admit that when it comes to following orders it is a hell of a lot different in a military career than in a civilian career. 

 

Of course it's different. No one's saying that it's okay for someone to just run off into the mountains because of minor, petty disagreements like not wanting to be stuck with KP duty. However, it's pretty clear that there are those times when a soldier actually needs to consider whether or not they should disobey bad orders or possibly resign/not re-up because they can no longer tolerate certain policies/behaviors.

 

Like I was saying about war crimes earlier, you can't excuse your own behavior or your own choices away by going "Hey, I was under orders to kill those civilians by my general - it's not my fault because I was told to do it." Doing what's right sometimes requires disobedience.

[Master Warder Z_]

They don't all think everyone should always follow all orders

Mmm alright.

Illegal orders are the obvious implication which isn't what I was speaking of.

Those same people I'd also assume knowingly deserting your post is a crime they'd be punished for.

Just as ignoring a lawful order from a superior would result in reprimand.

[BansheeOwnage]

More on-point: What is a deserter? Would you consider Calpernia a deserter because she can see the error of her ways? Or is it only deserting when it's someone on your team? If it's the enemy, well, they're just finally seeing the light, right?

 

Is that kind of former enemy just supposed to keep following orders even though they realized they're on the wrong side?

[BansheeOwnage]

Mmm alright.

Illegal orders are the obvious implication which isn't what I was speaking of.

Those same people I'd also assume knowingly deserting your post is a crime they'd be punished for.

Just as ignoring a lawful order from a superior would result in reprimand.

Them knowing they could get punished for disobeying makes no difference to whether they should.

[Master Warder Z_]

Doing what's right sometimes requires disobedience

And that's what I disagree with.

It shouldn't be a personal judgment call on the validity of orders.

The individual lacks a understanding of the field that superiors are aware of.

Garbage like that usually just results in people dying.

[Bugsie]

I'd love to know how an ordinary soldier (or Templar) is able to tell an 'illegal order' from one that might be morally questionable to some.

 

*chin hands*

[Bad King]

He is not only  a deserter,but a coward and a betrayer to those who he commanded.

 

He was the Knight-Commader of Kirkwall when Lambert summoned every Knight-Commander and proposed they left the Chantry to hunt down the mages, all 15 went there and all 15 agreed, so he left a war who he helped to start.

Not only that but the Red Templars started to spread trhough his rank and he did not discover it, even if Hawke is the Viscount and the Red Templars attack him,  Cullen still ignorant to the fact! Even a Hawke who went with the mages know that the templar at Kirkwall started using it, and he/she was exiled years ago, but their own Commander did not.

So he left his own subordinates to fight a war that he voted yes and to be corrupted by the Red Templars, dont know why he is the leader of the Inquistion military branch after such display of incompetence.

 

As I believe you've mentioned before on other threads, this was probably just the writers messing their timeline up and creating various continuity errors. I doubt that Cullen was supposed to be one of the 15 Knight-Commanders that supported Lambert and I doubt he was supposed to be present when the Order began consuming the red lyrium in Kirkwall.

[Master Warder Z_]

Them knowing they could get punished for disobeying makes no difference to whether they should.

Whether they should obey legal orders from a superior?

Alright then.

I think we have run to the conclusion.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'd love to know how an ordinary soldier (or Templar) is able to tell an 'illegal order' from one that might be morally questionable to some.

*chin hands*

Well in reality it goes into violation of standing civil if applicable or martial law.

Violation of those statutes results in a command being classified as unlawful.

In Thedas I'd assume it's similar.

[Sifr]

And that's what I disagree with.

It shouldn't be a personal judgment call on the validity of orders.

The individual lacks a understanding of the field that superiors are aware of.

Garbage like that usually just results in people dying.

 

You do realise that relying on the superiors "understanding of the field" was part of why World War I had such awful death tolls, because the armchair military running the show absolutely had no idea what they were doing and were operating on vastly outdated tactics?

 

I mean, after the first couple times ordering people to walk slowly towards machine guns didn't work, do you really think that the soldiers didn't have a reason to be peeved that the higher-ups weren't getting the memo and refused to come up with any other plan?

 

It's why so many people got shot for "cowardice", because they refused to take any more part in the suicidal insanity?

 

Just because you have some swanky bars on your uniform, doesn't always mean you know what you're doing?

[BansheeOwnage]

Whether they should obey legal orders from a superior?

Alright then.

I think we have run to the conclusion.

What's your definition of a legal order, or an illegal one?

[BansheeOwnage]

You do realise that relying on the superiors "understanding of the field" was part of why World War I had such awful death tolls, because the armchair military running the show absolutely had no idea what they were doing and were operating on vastly outdated tactics?

 

I mean, after the first couple times ordering people to walk slowly towards machine guns didn't work, do you really think that the soldiers didn't have a reason to be peeved that the higher-ups weren't getting the memo and refused to come up with any other plan?

 

It's why so many people got shot for "cowardice", because they refused to take any more part in the suicidal insanity?

 

Just because you have some swanky bars on your uniform, doesn't always mean you know what you're doing?

Exactly. Warder says that not following orders can lead to deaths, but so can following them. Complicated world we live in, huh? Too bad things aren't black and white like in Warder's. That must be nice.

[Master Warder Z_]

You do realise that relying on the superiors "understanding of the field" was part of why World War I had such awful death tolls

It couldn't have just been the brits being inept?

Jokes aside.

My orders never came from above my Battalion CO, usually not even from him, they were devied out by the NCO's more often then not.

I'd assume that's pretty common.

[AtreiyaN7]

And that's what I disagree with.

It shouldn't be a personal judgment call on the validity of orders.

The individual lacks a understanding of the field that superiors are aware of.

Garbage like that usually just results in people dying.

 

Ridiculous - I'm not talking about someone on a SEAL team bailing in the middle of a firefight or second-guessing somewhat questionable strategy/tactics during legitimate combat. I'm talking about disobeying the Merediths, Luciuses, and the Lamberts of the world of Thedas (or insert the name of any real-world military/political leader guilty of genocide and crimes against humanity if you want) - people who are either delusional, extremely misguided, or outright evil.

 

IRL, a soldier ordered to use chemical weapons despite being fully aware of the Geneva Conventions doesn't lack some mysterious "understanding" of his superior(s). It's wrong, it's against the rules, and everyone knows that chemical weapons are forbidden. So what are you supposed to do in that hypothetical situation? Follow orders to use the weapons despite it being wrong? Or do you disobey those orders?

[Master Warder Z_]

What's your definition of a legal order, or an illegal one?

The definition.

[leaguer of one]

Irrelevant and that makes it worse not better.

 

No it's not.

[Boost32]

Oh, them. Now I know who you're talking about (sorry, I didn't recall their names - it's been months since the last time I did some of my earlier war table missions). Yes, they stayed and seemed to be a decent bunch, but the fact remains that they would have been on the chopping block and would have eventually been forced to take red lyrium or die if Lucius' main forces had reached them.

 

So if/when that hypothetically happened, what would your position be? That they should stick around and take red lyrium - as ordered - or that they should disobey those orders? I mean, do you seriously think they'd be able to put up a fight? Because if the Inquisition weren't around, I suspect that Cory's plans would have gone off without a hitch and that he and his red Templars (and that demon army) would have crushed anyone who tried to resist.

 

EDIT: Oops, forgot - that letter isn't confirmed to be accepted, but it certainly seems logical to believe that it was. Cullen has never struck me as being a deserter, and he submitted what appeared to be a valid and formal request.

If your hypothetical situation happened: No they shouldnt use red lyrium, even if commanded the red templars are not part of the uncorrupted templars order anymore. And they wouldnt be able to resist the red templars.

 

Now I have a hypothetical situation to you, what would have happened if Cullen did his job instead of runnig away  and rooted out the first red templars who corrupted his man?

 

And to prove to someone esle that the corruption started before Cullen left, here is a video where Hawke tell the Inquisitor that the Red Templars attacked him:

https://youtu.be/bozqEi9_0mo?t=3m

 

So since they attacked Hawke Cullen had not left yes, he only left after Varric had been interrogates by Cassandra, when the interrogation happened HAwke had already fled.

[Master Warder Z_]

IRL, a soldier ordered to use chemical weapons despite being fully aware of the Geneva Conventions doesn't lack some mysterious "understanding" of his superior(s). It's wrong, it's against the rules, and everyone knows that chemical weapons are forbidden. So what are you supposed to do in that hypothetical situation? Follow orders to use the weapons despite it being wrong? Or do you disobey those orders?

It isn't wrong by any legal standpoint if you aren't a signer of any agreement not to employ questionable weaponry.

I'd point that out first and foremost.

The Swiss themselves know all about loopholes.

[Boost32]

This has been a fascinating debate. Been awhile since I've been on. My laptop crashed and I'm using my phone right now.

I don't see Cullen as a deserter. Rather, I see every Templar who chose to abandon the chantry to wage war for purely dogmatic reasons to be the traitors.

They betrayed the principles their Order was founded on, betrayed the very people they swore an oath to protect, and the mandate the Templars swore, to protect the world from magic and mages from the world.

Willingly following a demon and an ancient dark spawn magister pretty much destroys every aspect of what they represented.

The Chantry betrayed them when the Divine sent assassins to kill them,

 

Mages were on the loose, they were going to protect people from mages because mages didn't want their help.

 

Only a few followed them, the majority didn't even know that they were following a demon, And what you think about Fiona willingly following Corypheus if she is not saved by the Inquisition?

[Sifr]

Regarding the whole legal/illegal orders, you do realise that Meredith was violating Chantry law worse than a Volus bathroom is violated by a Krogan with a bad case of the runs?

 

[AtreiyaN7]

If your hypothetical situation happened: No they shouldnt use red lyrium, even if commanded the red templars are not part of the uncorrupted templars order anymore. And they wouldnt be able to resist the red templars.

 

Now I have a hypothetical situation to you, what would have happened if Cullen did his job instead of runnig away  and rooted out the first red templars who corrupted his man?

 

And to prove to someone esle that the corruption started before Cullen left, here is a video where Hawke tell the Inquisitor that the Red Templars attacked him:

https://youtu.be/bozqEi9_0mo?t=3m

 

So since they attacked Hawke Cullen had not left yes, he only left after Varric had been interrogates by Cassandra, when the interrogation happened HAwke had already fled.

 

Cullen didn't run away - he resigned. Also, your video doesn't prove anything - I'm pretty sure that Hawke's story is simply him referencing the incident with Meredith and any Templars who followed her (Meredith trying to kill Hawke during the finale of the game and all...). Cullen was in Kirkwall, so he knew about Meredith. However, there was no indication of a widespread problem with red Templars popping up like mushrooms back then.

 

I'm pretty sure that it seemed like a one-off problem at the time. No one could have guessed that Bianca was going to be responsible for letting the cat out of the bag with regards to the red lyrium. And if you side with the mages, the leader of the red Templars is Samson - a washed-up loser who probably wasn't on anyone's radar (least of all Cullen's after what happened in DA2).

 

What I think is that if Cullen had stuck around to do the job you think he should have done, he would have been assassinated just like the other officers who couldn't be corrupted.

[Master Warder Z_]

you do realise that Meredith was violating Chantry law

Those statutes weren't written with Kirkwall in mind obviously.

[Lumix19]

February 1st 2000 through September of 2007.

So it's a decade not two.

Sorry I just guessed. I thought you might have enlisted soon after you reached the right age.

Those statutes weren't written with Kirkwall in mind obviously.

That's not a good reason, that sounds very much like vigilantism to be honest.