51 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Besides Cassandra saying just that.

[Lady Artifice]

I don't doubt Cassandra, Warder, but she only just found out about it herself when she delivered that information. She still hasn't looked into it on her own. Yes, I'm sure they become stressed and overwhelmed. I don't think that necessarily means that they all beg to die. 

[Qun00]

Tranquils do not lose memories (???). They lose their emotions, which is completely different.
 
I'd assume that given enough time they'd be back to normal, but an "untranquil" is extremely unstable and unable to control their emotions. If a mage, that means they're terribly dangerous and prone to possession.

The new creature researcher at Skyhold says she used to like animals, but doesn't remember why.

[Lady Artifice]

The new creature researcher at Skyhold says she used to like animals, but doesn't remember why.

 

This point was actually made, and then addressed, on the first page.

 

She doesn't have access to the emotions that compelled her to like them, so she no longer has any way to understand why. It isn't her memory that's affected, it's her frame of reference for opinions based on feelings. 

 

 

[KaiserShep]

Mother Giselle asked a Tranquil about it at Haven, and she said it might be worse instead of better with suddenly regaining all that was lost emotionally. I think they would become very unstable and if they failed to adapt and can't control themselves, they would be killed.

I got the impression from the dialogue that something the tranquil experienced as such may cause serious distress if she regained her capacity for emotion.

[Br3admax]

I don't doubt Cassandra, Warder, but she only just found out about it herself when she delivered that information. She still hasn't looked into it on her own. Yes, I'm sure they become stressed and overwhelmed. I don't think that necessarily means that they all beg to die. 

Easy explanation, Lady: the Seekers themselves tried it before and found out it didn't work. That's kind of the point of the giant book. Do stuff, and write down what happens. If mages could be prevented from being possessed so easily, hell yeah, every single mage coming through the Tower would be made a Seeker. It obviously doesn't work. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Hmm, could've sworn that after helping Cassandra I was able to ask her how the research into it was going and she said that they tried testing it on one person but that he/she was emotionally volatile after the rite and that she wasn't sure if this person would recover over time (or something to that effect)..

[Lady Artifice]

Easy explanation, Lady: the Seekers themselves tried it before and found out it didn't work. That's kind of the point of the giant book. Do stuff, and write down what happens. If mages could be prevented from being possessed so easily, hell yeah, every single mage coming through the Tower would be made a Seeker. It obviously doesn't work. 

 

Another explanation: The southern circle system, from the relative isolation to the rite of tranquility, is based not only on protecting against blood magic and demonic possession but also on keeping power hungry Mages away from opportunities to seize power. This is heaps easier to do if you can convince some of the people you're containing that they have no other option but to be contained. 

 

From the Chantry's perspective, every step away from the status quo is a step toward another Imperium. Which means that the Chantry, both ancient and modern, would be extremely disinclined to fully explore options that might lead to less reliance on Templar protection for Circle Mages. 

 

I acknowledge that it was attempted, it's how much research and motivation went into those attempts that I doubt. 

 

Besides, my point wasn't to say that curing tranquility wouldn't leave most former tranquil an emotional wreck, but that Pharamond is a tricky example because he was an inherently fragile person. His might be an extreme case. 

[Br3admax]

Another explanation: The southern circle system, from the relative isolation to the rite of tranquility, is based not only on protecting again blood magic and demonic possession but also on keeping power hungry Mages away from opportunities to seize power. This is heaps easier to do if you can convince some of the people you're containing that they have no other option but to be contained. 

 

From the Chantry's perspective, every step away from the status quo is a step toward another Imperium. Which means that the Chantry, both ancient and modern, would be extremely disinclined to fully explore options that might lead to less reliance on Templar protection for Circle Mages. 

 

I acknowledge that it was attempted, it's how much research and motivation went into those attempts that I doubt. 

 

Besides, my point wasn't to say that curing tranquility wouldn't leave most former tranquil an emotional wreck, but that Pharamond is a tricky example because he was an inherently fragile person. His might be an extreme case. 

That makes absolutely no sense. Only the Lord/Lady Seeker can read the book of secrets. Do you honestly believe the Lord Keeper would do that, lie? To himself? The Seekers don't serve the status quo or the Chantry, if we're going to be honest, so meh. I believe the Seekers tried it, multiple times, when they were a part of the Inquisition, and it failed. This being long before the Circle was even a thing. I'm sure they've also tried several time sense then. 

 

And while I realize that Pharamond "is a tricky example," I don't doubt Cassandra's knowledge on the subject is the most current, accurate, and up to date knowledge on the subject. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Another explanation: The southern circle system, from the relative isolation to the rite of tranquility, is based not only on protecting against blood magic and demonic possession but also on keeping power hungry Mages away from opportunities to seize power. This is heaps easier to do if you can convince some of the people you're containing that they have no other option but to be contained. 

 

From the Chantry's perspective, every step away from the status quo is a step toward another Imperium. Which means that the Chantry, both ancient and modern, would be extremely disinclined to fully explore options that might lead to less reliance on Templar protection for Circle Mages. 

 

I acknowledge that it was attempted, it's how much research and motivation went into those attempts that I doubt. 

 

Besides, my point wasn't to say that curing tranquility wouldn't leave most former tranquil an emotional wreck, but that Pharamond is a tricky example because he was an inherently fragile person. His might be an extreme case. 

The Chantry had no idea that a cure for tranquility even existed... Only the Seekers had knowledge about it.

 

So far 100% of all mages we've witnessed be cured of their tranquility, have begged for death. That is not a good track record.

[Frikipolleces]

 

I got the impression from the dialogue that something the tranquil experienced as such may cause serious distress if she regained her capacity for emotion.

We know for a fact that some tranquils were raped by templars, so there's that... Even in the best cases they're treated porly. She is a tranquil, so she doesn't really care about that... but she is conscious that if she regained her emotions she'd feel bad.

 

Tranquils are fascinating, in a way. People that completely lack emotions, but can remember what it's like.

[Master Warder Z_]

We know for a fact that some tranquils were raped by templars, so there's that...

There is also the whole mages beheading them and turning their skulls into spy glasses.

[The Baconer]

Easy explanation, Lady: the Seekers themselves tried it before and found out it didn't work. That's kind of the point of the giant book. Do stuff, and write down what happens. If mages could be prevented from being possessed so easily, hell yeah, every single mage coming through the Tower would be made a Seeker. It obviously doesn't work. 

 

Becoming a Seeker (that is, attracting a specific spirit during Tranquility) is far from easy.

 

Also, Cassandra never gives a conclusive answer on the subject, which should be a simple task since she has the book.

[Master Warder Z_]

Which is why I said it simply.

We don't know.

[The Baconer]

Which is why I said it simply.

We don't know.

 

^ This should be the go-to until World of God or further literature gives details.

 

Thanks WoT2 for no new information on the subject.

[Lady Artifice]

That makes absolutely no sense. Only the Lord/Lady Seeker can read the book of secrets. Do you honestly believe the Lord Keeper would do that, lie? To himself? 

 

Nope. I think the Seekers might lie to everyone else, because--

 

 

 

The Seekers don't serve the status quo or the Chantry, if we're going to be honest, so meh. I believe the Seekers tried it, multiple times, when they were a part of the Inquisition, and it failed. This being long before the Circle was even a thing. I'm sure they've also tried several time sense then. 

 

 

--it seems to me that they do. So we might just have to agree to disagree on this. It's an Andrastian order, answering directly to the Divine (that's straight out of the wiki). I think arguing whether they serve the Chantry when they exclusively answer to it's highest echelon of leadership might be an issue of semantics. 

 

 

 

And while I realize that Pharamond "is a tricky example," I don't doubt Cassandra's knowledge on the subject is the most current, accurate, and up to date knowledge on the subject. 

 

 

I don't doubt that either. I also don't doubt that Isaac Newton had the most current, accurate, and up to date knowledge on astrophysics during his time. And yet, there was more to learn. 

 

This is a fictional science, I realize, and not bound by the same rules. My point is simply that there might be more to learn.

[Lady Artifice]

The Chantry had no idea that a cure for tranquility even existed... Only the Seekers had knowledge about it.

 

So far 100% of all mages we've witnessed be cured of their tranquility, have begged for death. That is not a good track record.

 

100% sounds like such an impressive statistic. 

 

It's two people. That's not a sufficient data pool.

[X Equestris]

Becoming a Seeker (that is, attracting a specific spirit during Tranquility) is far from easy.
 
Also, Cassandra never gives a conclusive answer on the subject, which should be a simple task since she has the book.

It may be that the Seekers have extra difficulty as they are trying to attract one specific type of spirits (Faith) that are fairly rare. If you aren't looking for the Seeker powers, it might be easier to try to attract more common spirits.

[Frikipolleces]

There is also the whole mages beheading them and turning their skulls into spy glasses.

Decapitated tranquils have no strong feelings about curing their status, one way or the other, so I fail to see how that's relevant to anything.

 

If what you are implying is that other mages treated them as porly as the templars, and I know you are, I seriously doubt it. If nothing else, the templars were the ones in a position of superiority, and therefore with the authority to commit abuses.

 

 

Additionally, they were begging for different reasons. Pharamond was begging because he didn't want to handle living. Karl was begging because he didn't want to handle returning to state of tranquility. 

 

huh? Pharamond was going to be made tranquil again the next day, that's why he begged for his death. It's the same situation, the only difference been the amount of time they spent as tranquils and ex-tranquils.

[The Baconer]

It may be that the Seekers have extra difficulty as they are trying to attract one specific type of spirits (Faith) that are fairly rare. If you aren't looking for the Seeker powers, it might be easier to try to attract more common spirits.

I imagine it's not easy to embody some aspect so strongly as to attract any particular spirit, especially if you're trying to specifically avoid malevolent spirits.

[Br3admax]

Nope. I think the Seekers might lie to everyone else, because--

Irrelevant. Everyone else doesn't read the book. 

 

 

 

--it seems to me that they do. So we might just have to agree to disagree on this. It's an Andrastian order, answering directly to the Divine (that's straight out of the wiki). I think arguing whether they serve the Chantry when they exclusively answer to it's highest echelon of leadership might be an issue of semantics. 

Cassandra says the Seekers don't truly serve the Divine. Lucious says they serve only themselves. All evidence points to the fact that they are hella corrupt and answer to no one. There's no reason to believe they care about what the Chantry does besides be good, little Andrastians. 

 

 

I don't doubt that either. I also don't doubt that Isaac Newton had the most current, accurate, and up to date knowledge on astrophysics during his time. And yet, there was more to learn. 

This is a fictional science, I realize, and not bound by the same rules. My point is simply that there might be more to learn. 

 

 

 

Every single mage up to date hates being cured of Tranquility became an emotionally unstable mess. There can be as much more to learn as the day is long. But as of now, it's dangerous. So while it's true Cassandra herself just found out about these things, it's not like Cassandra just stumbled onto a relatively new phenomenon. This something with a thousand years plus worth of trial and error. Given Newton's Laws, for the most part, are still very much Laws, you won't see me holding my breath for the magical cure all any time soon. 

 

But BioWare writes this, so there's a pretty good chance it'l be nonsensically thrown into the plot somewhere. 

[Lady Artifice]

huh? Pharamond was going to be made tranquil again the next day, that's why he begged for his death. It's the same situation, the only difference been the amount of time they spent as tranquils and ex-tranquils.

 

You're right, sorry. I was thinking so much of how much trouble he was having with dealing with emotions that I became fixated on whether he might have been unable to handle survival as a non tranquil in general.

 

I edited my post. 

[Frikipolleces]

 

 

Every single mage up to date hates being cured of Tranquility became an emotionally unstable mess. There can be as much more to learn as the day is long. But as of now, it's dangerous. So while it's true Cassandra herself just found out about these things, it's not like Cassandra just stumbled onto a relatively new phenomenon. This something with a thousand years plus worth of trial and error. Given Newton's Laws, for the most part, are still very much Laws, you won't see me holding my breath for the magical cure all any time soon. 

Why would the Seekers experiment with the cure at any point in history? For them, being cured of tranquility was an instrinsec part of the ritual that made you a Seeker, it's not something they did separately. If you succeded, you were cured. If you failed, you remained a tranquil. Cassandra states that much, we've got no reason to think that they tried to reverse the state later.

[Lady Artifice]

Irrelevant. Everyone else doesn't read the book. 

 

That doesn't render anything I said irrelevant. The fact that the book is a secret is part of my point. 

 

 

 

Cassandra says the Seekers don't truly serve the Divine. Lucious says they serve only themselves. All evidence points to the fact that they are hella corrupt and answer to no one. There's no reason to believe they care about what the Chantry does besides be good, little Andrastians. 

 

 

There's no reason to believe that they care what one of the most dominant Thedasian superpowers, the most prolific institution of influence over Kingdoms and events in the the entire southern part of the world does? 

 

 

Every single mage up to date hates being cured of Tranquility became an emotionally unstable mess. There can be as much more to learn as the day is long. But as of now, it's dangerous. 

 

 

We agree. It's whether cautiously braving that danger might be something worth doing where we differ. 

 

 

 

So while it's true Cassandra herself just found out about these things, it's not like Cassandra just stumbled onto a relatively new phenomenon. This something with a thousand years plus worth of trial and error. Given Newton's Laws, for the most part, are still very much Laws, you won't see me holding my breath for the magical cure all any time soon. 

 

 

We don't know exactly how much earnest trial and error was conducted. Attempts were made, but saying it was "a thousand years plus" of effort is an assumption that I don't share. 

 

Acknowledged that any Mage cured of tranquility will probably deal with an emotional upheaval as a result, it's the possibility that this upheaval might be eventually overcome that I'm entertaining, hopelessly emotion driven sentimentalist that I am. 

 

 

 

 

But BioWare writes this, so there's a pretty good chance it'l be nonsensically thrown into the plot somewhere. 

 

 

 

I actually think it's much more likely than not that the status quo will be preserved.