44 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

Wow it's like people totally missed the entirety of what Dorian was saying. Yes, the decision to not have children was selfish, self-centered. Certainly among the nobility. But he also repeatedly states that kind of cultural practice for no reason beyond status is exactly why the Imperium is in decline. The Magisters are too focused polishing their scepters, building dynasties and personal prestige and not the Imperium. In a country where magic seems at least as important as your bloodline, if not more so, it makes even less sense why a Magister HAS to have children if his legacy can continue with an unrelated apprentice. It's dumb and slots in with his valued independence. His worldview is both a fundamental disagreement with how **** is run (or not run) in the Imperium and a rebellion against social norms on a more personal level.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Not sure why people get mad about Dorian "not doing his duty" for his family, is not like it'll make a difference when the Imperium gets crushed finally once the Qunari are fully ready for a 2nd attempt at conquering Thedas again

[leadintea]

Halward wasn't right resorting to blood magic, but that doesn't mean Dorian was in the right either. Family name is important in Tevinter and can make or break a family, so for Dorian to abandon his family and leave them in shame and ruin in Tevinter really shows how little he cares about his family. This comparison doesn't work in this day and age because I can't ruin my entire family's livelihood just for being gay in most places in the world.

[Master Warder Z_]

Then he has no business ruling anything.

It's simple.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Then he has no business ruling anything.

It's simple.

 

Sorry, who said he's going to rule anything?

[Arlee]

Halward wasn't right resorting to blood magic, but that doesn't mean Dorian was in the right either. Family name is important in Tevinter and can make or break a family, so for Dorian to abandon his family and leave them in shame and ruin in Tevinter really shows how little he cares about his family. This comparison doesn't work in this day and age because I can't ruin my entire family's livelihood just for being gay in most places in the world.

 

Umm... where do you get his family is in ruin from? Halward certainly doesn't see badly off when we see him and there's no indication in game that Dorian's actions have brought ruin on his family at all.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sorry, who said he's going to rule anything?

He obviously wishes to resume the Imperium and spew his political agenda as a noble.

He makes a pretty big deal about it.

But...he's unworthy of the title and position.

[Xilizhra]

Halward wasn't right resorting to blood magic, but that doesn't mean Dorian was in the right either. Family name is important in Tevinter and can make or break a family, so for Dorian to abandon his family and leave them in shame and ruin in Tevinter really shows how little he cares about his family. This comparison doesn't work in this day and age because I can't ruin my entire family's livelihood just for being gay in most places in the world.

Consider the kind of people his family evidently is. In any case, it's less right to force someone even through social pressure into an unwanted life for political reasons than it is to break away from that. They're still altus and rich and all that; it was a loss of a chance for advancement, not a loss of actual status.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Wow it's like people totally missed the entirety of what Dorian was saying. Yes, the decision to not have children was selfish, self-centered. Certainly among the nobility. But he also repeatedly states that kind of cultural practice for no reason beyond status is exactly why the Imperium is in decline. The Magisters are too focused polishing their scepters, building dynasties and personal prestige and not the Imperium. In a country where magic seems at least as important as your bloodline, if not more so, it makes even less sense why a Magister HAS to have children if his legacy can continue with an unrelated apprentice. It's dumb and slots in with his valued independence. His worldview is both a fundamental disagreement with how **** is run (or not run) in the Imperium and a rebellion against social norms on a more personal level.

 

And how does he think to change anything for the better by running away and losing his status?

[Xilizhra]

And how does he think to change anything for the better by running away and losing his status?

Well, he changes his mind by the end of the game.

[nightscrawl]

Then he shouldn't go back.

 

He doesn't want to go back to live the high life of a Tevinter noble (because he was having so much fun before...). He wants to go back to FIX it.

 

 

Or maybe he will just be disowned.

 

Given the way that Halward spoke to him in the tavern I doubt that would actually happen. He wanted to "see his son" and "hear his voice," and asked to be forgiven. There may be disappointment with Dorian's "choices," but there is love there too.

[Master Warder Z_]

Given the way that Halward spoke

Not by his father.

By the Senate.

He can denounced as nobility, after all it is the ruling houses of the Imperium and Archon who decide upon who actually joins the Senate.

[Fredward]

And how does he think to change anything for the better by running away and losing his status?

 

Is that a serious question? Well, in the first place 'status' is a nebulous concept. He's said himself he has not been kicked out, yet so he's not prohibited from returning. Status is just what people believe of you, what you're capable of, what you can and have accomplished, how much support you can muster. If he comes back as a member of the organization that saved all of Southern Thedas and defeated a cult led by an ancient, original Magister he'd have a lot more 'status' than he had before he left. Cuz then he was just a hipster kid railing against the establishment. Those are everywhere, no reason to pay a specific one much mind. But someone who has ties to the most powerful organization in Thedas? Someone who dabbled in time magic? Who [possibly] entered the Fade physically? Who [possibly] met an original Magister and traded spells with him? You don't think that wouldn't net him a whole new kind of status and influence?  A different kind than if he had stayed and played by the rules but I'd also argue he got it faster and more of it this way.

 

And then let's think about how many revolutionary firebrand's enacted widescale, radical change from WITHIN the system. Like right at the centre of it. Not saying it's impossible but people give you a bit of a side-eye if you say you want to completely get rid of a system that's actively benefiting you. He didn't lose his status as much as trade it in for some street cred with the disenfranchised.

 

If Dorian has been anyone else I would have suggested he stay and place nice and then maybe when he was 60 something he'd have enough influence to change things. Maybe be Archon even, maybe he'd still have held his ideals so close to heart despite playing the political game, living the political game for so long that he'd be able to enact some change. Maybe that change wouldn't offend the Magisterium enough that they'd just change it back after he's dead. But he's not anyone else, he's

 

[Uccio]

His father was going to warp his mind to force him into a legacy; I don't think Halward deserves any sympathy.

 

He was going to do that because Dorian would not accept his place and having children in the process. Him being gay wasn´t the issue until that point.

 

Wow it's like people totally missed the entirety of what Dorian was saying. Yes, the decision to not have children was selfish, self-centered. Certainly among the nobility. But he also repeatedly states that kind of cultural practice for no reason beyond status is exactly why the Imperium is in decline. 

 

I´m sure mundane nobles around Thedas do exactly the same when it comes to staying in position of power. Power and prestige is what keeps nobles running, mage or not.

[Uccio]

Is that a serious question? Well, in the first place 'status' is a nebulous concept. He's said himself he has not been kicked out, yet so he's not prohibited from returning. Status is just what people believe of you, what you're capable of, what you can and have accomplished, how much support you can muster. If he comes back as a member of the organization that saved all of Southern Thedas and defeated a cult led by an ancient, original Magister he'd have a lot more 'status' than he had before he left. Cuz then he was just a hipster kid railing against the establishment. Those are everywhere, no reason to pay a specific one much mind. But someone who has ties to the most powerful organization in Thedas? Someone who dabbled in time magic? Who [possibly] entered the Fade physically? Who [possibly] met an original Magister and traded spells with him? You don't think that wouldn't net him a whole new kind of status and influence?  A different kind than if he had stayed and played by the rules but I'd also argue he got it faster and more of it this way. *snip*

 

 

It would also earn him tons of enemies in the Magisterium working with someone connected to the southern Chantry and possible enemy of the Imperium. The only feasible option to his return would be him getting killed by the Senate for working with the southern Chantry most likely.

There is no indication that the true Chantry of the Imperium is any more relaxed when it comes to dealing with the southern counterpart. Like Anders said, getting himself hanged for simply wearing a Imperial Chantry amulet. I am pretty sure the Imperium feels the same.

[Fredward]

It would also earn him tons of enemies in the Magisterium working with someone connected to the southern Chantry and possible enemy of the Imperium. The only feasible option to his return would be him getting killed by the Senate for working with the southern Chantry most likely.

There is no indication that the true Chantry of the Imperium is any more relaxed when it comes to dealing with the southern counterpart. Like Anders said, getting himself hanged for simply wearing a Imperial Chantry amulet. I am pretty sure the Imperium feels the same.

 

Yes, he'd be in danger. I think it's a given that you're in danger whenever you openly challenge the ruling class. Like Maevaris. Who iced the competition, at least temporarily, with some help from the Inquisition.

[Uccio]

Yes, he'd be in danger. I think it's a given that you're in danger whenever you openly challenge the ruling class. Like Maevaris. Who iced the competition, at least temporarily, with some help from the Inquisition.

 

That was more like a in game boon for the pc to feel powerful. In a real world anyone working with a outside power to counter domestic issues will get their head chopped off. Especially when being the absolute minority. That is practically a treason and no amount of Inquisition could help Maevaris at that point.

[Fredward]

That was more like a in game boon for the pc to feel powerful. In a real world anyone working with a outside power to counter domestic issues will get their head chopped off. Especially when being the absolute minority. That is practically a treason and no amount of Inquisition could help Maevaris at that point.

 

~shrug~

 

We're all entitled to our wrong opinions.

[Uccio]

~shrug~
 
We're all entitled to our wrong opinions.

Indeed.

That little plot with Maevaris would have backfired at the start. Imperium whom is practically in a state of constant cold war with the south would check anyone crossing their border. A group of templars disguised as Imperial ones would have checked at the border for sure. There is no way it could have worked.

[Uccio]

Maevaris working with southern Chantry templars would have only earned a decapitation, nothing else. Same goes with Doria, working with the left and right hand of the southern divine would have cost him his head. No amount of his fathers prestige would have helped.