289 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

 

So murdering dozens of people so you don't go to jail is preferable? Yeah, your Warden definitely isn't like Howe with putting the lives of many, including innocents, under your ambition in terms of importance.

 

 

What's wrong with being like Howe in that way?

 

After all, if your ambitions are as important as the lives of many, including innocents... then they're as important. If they are more important, say because they put the lives of many more over the lives of many, then there's nothing wrong with putting ambition above lives. What matters is the ambition, not that it's ambitious.

 

Now, Howe's ambitions weren't that important. They were pretty petty, benefited no one, and brought injustice rather than any sort of deserved retribution. The comparison fails if the Warden's ambitions are more worthy.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What's wrong with being like Howe in that way?

 

After all, if your ambitions are as important as the lives of many, including innocents... then they're as important. If they are more important, say because they put the lives of many more over the lives of many, then there's nothing wrong with putting ambition above lives. What matters is the ambition, not that it's ambitious.

 

Now, Howe's ambitions weren't that important. They were pretty petty, benefited no one, and brought injustice rather than any sort of deserved retribution. The comparison fails if the Warden's ambitions are more worthy.

So "I don't want to go to jail even though I can get out almost as soon as I get in" is worth more than the lives of several innocent people? Anyone who thinks that deserves to be in prison. 

[Patchwork]

Surrendering to Loghain's soldiers after you've just killed his best bud doesn't seem like the smartest thing to do. 

 

It's been ages since I've played DAO but I'm sure I could kill the guard harassing the maid without them all go hostile. 

[The Elder King]

So "I don't want to go to jail even though I can get out almost as soon as I get in" is worth more than the lives of several innocent people? Anyone who thinks that deserves to be in prison.

But your character doesn't know he/she'd be out of jail.

[KaiserShep]

No, the choice at that point is "Let one man go so thousands suffer" or "Make one man suffer so thousands don't". If there was a third choice of "Arrest one man so thousands don't", I would choose that. But since it doesn't, it goes to the defense of others, which is different than murder. 

 

No, it's really the same thing. At that moment, you have only your assumption to operate on, but for all you know, that Tevinter slaver could decide he wants to give up this lousy job and become a merchant in Tevinter. Everything is basically left to chance, and I decided that the chances of him being a better man upon leaving were slim to nil.

 

 

So murdering dozens of people so you don't go to jail is preferable? Yeah, you definitely aren't like Howe with putting the lives of many under your ambition in terms of importance.

 

Talk about false equivalence. The Warden didn't just waltz in there for fun, to steal people's money or simply take the castle for him/herself like Howe did. The Warden is there to rescue the friggin' queen and fight a war against ancient evil that threatens to wipe out the entire nation, and potentially all other nations beyond that. How does that really compare to what Howe was trying to do? Surrendering puts the Warden and possibly Alistair in danger of being executed.

 

It would have been extremely hilarious if in surrendering, the Warden was executed outright, so you had no choice but to fight if you wanted to live. You are simply metagaming. From the Warden's perspective, you have no reason to believe that you will be shown mercy, or that you will ever be free to finish the fight against the darkspawn, and could very well be waiting to die in a dungeon even while the darkspawn tear through Denerim.

 

 

Can't say I'm surprised though. Your avatar has Sera in it and she embraces the philosophy of "It's okay to murder murderers" throughout Inquisition.

 

As Sera would say: pbfft

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But your character doesn't know he/she'd be out of jail.

Sure they do. Either they know they can get out by themselves, or that their friends and allies will get them out. No metagaming involved. 

[The Elder King]

Yeah, I don't get the avatar thing. Having Isabela's avatar doesn't mean I'do everything she did.

[The Elder King]

Sure they do. Either they know they can get out by themselves, or that their friends and allies will get them out. No metagaming involved.

How so ? That dialogue happened after the choice. We have no clue Loghain wouldn't chop off our head the moment we're taken in prison. Or torture us.

[Patchwork]

Sure they do. Either they know they can get out by themselves, or that their friends and allies will get them out. No metagaming involved. 

 

They have no way of knowing that, they have no way of knowing what will happen after they surrender and have to hand over their weapons and armour. 

 

Being killed on the spot is much more likely than somehow finding an opportunity to escape or a rescue. 

[Dean_the_Young]

So "I don't want to go to jail even though I can get out almost as soon as I get in" is worth more than the lives of several innocent people?

 

Can be- depends on the stakes, and potential costs, of going to prison are. If going to prison were to risk the deaths of more people than resisting, then it would even be the morally superior option. It's been awhile, but the last time I did a Warden who went to prison I killed the entire prison garrison of Fort Drakon. Doubt I saved lives there.

 

There's also the questionable assumption of why you think you can get out almost as soon as you get in. There are so many ways that could fail, I'd question the intelligence of basing any plan on that assumption.
 

 

 

Anyone who thinks that deserves to be in prison.

 

 

 

Anyone who can't think that doesn't deserve to have the responsibility and power to make the choice in the first place.

 

Fortunately, responsibility is far less about weighting 'deserves' and more about the consideration of 'effects.'

[Hanako Ikezawa]

How so ? That dialogue happened after the choice. We have no clue Loghain wouldn't chop off our head the moment we're taken in prison. Or torture us.

A person can have an idea without vocalizing it right then and there. 

[Steelcan]

A person can have an idea without vocalizing it right then and there. 

if your thought process goes "I'm under arrest by a servant of my enemy" -> "That's ok I can surrender to prevent further bloodshed and simply escape from prison" there are some serious gaps and leaps in logic involved

[Dean_the_Young]

A person can have an idea without vocalizing it right then and there. 

 

Except that's not 'knowing' that they can get out. That is, at best, an idea of future intent- and not necessarily a supported or feasible one either.

[Patchwork]

if your thought process goes "I'm under arrest by a servant of my enemy" -> "That's ok I can surrender to prevent further bloodshed and simply escape from prison" there are some serious gaps and leaps in logic involved

 

Otherwise known as meta gaming.

 

You can surrender because you know nothing bad will happen if you do, you know that you'll be sent to prison and you'll be able to either free yourself or kick back and wait for your companions to do the hard work.

 

From an RP perspective you have no way of knowing what will happen if you surrender. 

[Lady Artifice]

I usually surrendered.

 

and I was definitely meta-gaming. 

[AresKeith]

I usually surrendered.

 

and I was definitely meta-gaming. 

 

I surrendered because I didn't want to deal with Miss OP lol

 

definitely meta-gamed it

[Lady Artifice]

I surrendered because I didn't want to deal with Miss OP lol

 

definitely meta-gamed it

 

I mean, forget Loghain. I would like to conscript her into the Grey Wardens. The Archdemon won't even know what hit him. 

[Deztyn]

The ultimate party for any boss fight: Ser Cauthrien, Druffalo, Great Bear. Total annihilation. Don't even need to fill that last slot.

[Master Warder Z_]

I surrendered because I didn't want to deal with Miss OP lol

definitely meta-gamed it

Knock down is your friend with her.

Then just have Zevran rip her to shreds.

Even on Nightmare it's rinse and repeat.

[AresKeith]

I mean, forget Loghain. I would like to conscript her into the Grey Wardens. The Archdemon won't even know what hit him. 

 

That's I wanted her and the ruler of Ferelden to have more of rule, so I could temporarily recruit her lol 

[KaiserShep]

I surrendered because I didn't want to deal with Miss OP lol

 

definitely meta-gamed it

 

I had Alistair, Wynne and Morrigan in my party. Not even the Maker itself can stand in my way. Mathesar says:

 

[AresKeith]

I had Alistair, Wynne and Morrigan in my party. Not even the Maker itself can stand in my way. Mathesar says:

 

 

That's only if you have Cassandra over Alistair

[Br3admax]

I've honestly never had trouble with Catherine. I really don't see why people do. Then again I have all the OP **** before going to Denerim, so. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I had a lot of issues with the Mother in Awakening...

[Br3admax]

I had issues with a lot of Awakening.