It probably has a lot to do with the fact part of the point is people aren't good or bad and have shades of both within them and they change over time. That's always been a theme in the Dragon Age games.
It probably has a lot to do with the fact part of the point is people aren't good or bad and have shades of both within them and they change over time. That's always been a theme in the Dragon Age games.
I always saw Alistair as a dark character since Origins. The guy was basically unwanted - his own father gave him away (although he doesn't know the reason why Maric gave him away), Isolde feared him and Eamon sent him to the stables then later to the Chantry to appease Isolde.
He joins the Grey Wardens and find a family there only to have them die at the beginning of Origins. That kind of thing does play a major part in Alistair and he does show how bloodthirsty he is when it comes to Loghain. He wants Loghain's head. He keeps it to himself but there is a reason why you cannot stop him from killing Loghain if he is the one to duel him.
Add in meeting his sister and having her tell him what she did (that his father forced himself on 'their' mother and that the woman died giving birth to him and his sister wanting nothing to do with him (except gold)).
Yeah - you have the option to harden or not harden him but I always saw that the events has already been taking their toll on him.
Then you remember that Alistair has always been wary of Morrigan joining the group - he even says that he thinks there is another reason why she joins (and he was right - she gives you the option to survive the Archdemon - by getting her pregnant - which could be a blow for Alistair if he is a romance with a female Warden and she asks him to do the ritual with Morrigan - a woman he doesn't like).
Then you have the whole thing about Morrigan asking you to kill Flemeth because she takes over her daughter's body. Flemeth offers you another way - to lie to Morrigan about killing her because she wants to see what Morrigan will do with her freedom. Sure, Alistair agrees (and approves) yet this just causes more distrust in wild witches in his part.
Everything with them seem to have a personal motive behind it.
Killing Yavana - I got the impression he was just tired of everything that was going on. Yavana says Maric was supposed to come back to help her awaken the Dragons yet he did not. She offered to help Alistair find his father - IF he awakens the old Dragons. To Alistair - it seems like everything needs to be a ritual and he is just tired of it.
He even says that Morrigan, Flemeth and Yavana lies and manipulate everything. Yavana says it this their craft - yet not their purpose. At this point - what reason does Alistair have to trust Yavana in anything she says? Flemeth disappeared (yet he probably heard how she helped Hawke - since Isabela and Varric are part of his party). Morrigan disappears after the final battle with a child (if the Dark Ritual was taken) or she left before the final battle because her ritual was not taken - leaving them without added support (which could embitter him further to her).
Considering Flemeth's words in Inquisition - I think he has a good reason to worry when it comes to the witches (and his blood). (and Grey Warden!Alistair says he met his father in the Fade so I guess we can consider he went through the same situations in the comic as King!Alistair).
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For Leliana - she was always dark. Even after killing Majorie - she admits that she liked killing her, that she likes playing the game and admits that scares her. You have the option to tell her to embrace it or to know that it is not her. Either way - Leliana pretty much goes to work for the Divine, which takes her away from the Warden (who could have been a good support) and ends up using her abilities to help the Divine as the Left Hand by murdering, blackmailing and getting secrets.
She is a spymaster for a reason. I think the loss of the Divine (and her shaken faith in the Maker) has made her steel herself. With the Warden disappearing (who could be considered as the only person she trusts), she probably fears the worse and does not want to feel that again which is why she says to kill the traitor instead of making them work for her.
After everything they had been through - it is not really a surprise that they fell into the darker aspects of their lives.
Alistair killing Maric at the end of Until We Sleep is a good thing. He was basically dead already; the only thing keeping him in this world was the Magrallen. What kind of life was that, existing as a rotted shell chained to a magical artifact draining your blood away? Maevaris' solutions were shots in the dark; she practically said as much.
Killing Yavana was a little more ambigious, but his logic was that taking away Maric caused all the bad things that followed. Which is true, in a sense; while the Blight would still have happened, the disaster at Ostagar probably would not. A great many people would still be alive if Maric were still king.
And, y'know, Alistair was just tired of being the puppet of Flemeth and her ilk.
Because Bioware is jumping on the "Morally grey/dark and edgy characters are cool" train and rarely ever have genuinely good characters anymore. 
It's probably a good thing that I never read the comics.
Some of OP's points are part of the reason why I would rather the games stop bringing back characters from earlier editions. By necessity, there is minimal explaining of why they are such different characters, when the only real reason is the necessity that they be redefined in order to streamline all of the potential outcomes from DA:O, where player choice significantly impacted the fate of those characters and the outcome of the story.
I honestly don't think the presence of a drastically changed Morrigan or Leliana is going to significantly impact sales, so hopefully they will conclude, for economical reasons, that it's time to leave the fates of these characters ambiguous and give us new ones that don't come with baggage created by player agency. The upside is that it would free the writers and developers to create a game in which player choice actually has a significant role again, which would be awesome.
Because Bioware is jumping on the "Morally grey/dark and edgy characters are cool" train and rarely ever have genuinely good characters anymore.
They never had "genuinely good" characters. It's all about perspective.
I'm sure Loghain didn't think Alistair was super good when he hacked his head off in front of his daughter.
They've had genuinely good characters. Even now with their new attitude towards characters there is one or two genuinely good characters per game, but not nearly as much as there used to be.
It's probably a good thing that I never read the comics.
Some of OP's points are part of the reason why I would rather the games stop bringing back characters from earlier editions. By necessity, there is minimal explaining of why they are such different characters, when the only real reason is the necessity that they be redefined in order to streamline all of the potential outcomes from DA:O, where player choice significantly impacted the fate of those characters and the outcome of the story.
I honestly don't think the presence of a drastically changed Morrigan or Leliana is going to significantly impact sales, so hopefully they will conclude, for economical reasons, that it's time to leave the fates of these characters ambiguous and give us new ones that don't come with baggage created by player agency. The upside is that it would free the writers and developers to create a game in which player choice actually has a significant role again, which would be awesome.
This! stop with the huge cameos of old characters just for the sake of fan service, the only thing that they can do is regurgitate for them some useless part in the story, instead i see a great appreciation for the new characters of DAI Solas,Sera,Cassandra ecc.., and well ......Cullen always on the top that is not a surprise....... if they will bring back someone for DA4 the will be Solas and ugh..... Cullen even if he is not needed.
They never had "genuinely good" characters. It's all about perspective.
I'm sure Loghain didn't think Alistair was super good when he hacked his head off in front of his daughter.
Loghain situation is very delicate, i do not understand of why he venting his frustration on Loghain rather than the archdemon who is the real source of the problems.
It's the most innocent of people that get hit the hardest by life's struggles. Also, you know, Darkspawn and years of war and conflict.
Wait, is that mentioned anywhere?
World of Thedas Vol. 2
This! stop with the huge cameos of old characters just for the sake of fan service, the only thing that they can do is regurgitate for them some useless part in the story, instead i see a great appreciation for the new characters of DAI Solas,Sera,Cassandra ecc.., and well ......Cullen always on the top that is not a surprise....... if they will bring back someone for DA4 the will be Solas and ugh..... Cullen even if he is not needed.
Loghain situation is very delicate, i do not understand of why he venting his frustration on Loghain rather than the archdemon who is the real source of the problems.
Why shouldn't Bioware bring back the characters they created?
Leliana can be dissuaded from killing Butler or that... Sister what's-her-face, I forget. XD But when you consider her role, how she's been used by the Divine since the DA:O days, and how she was used by Marjolaine, it makes sense she would struggle with necessity and morality.
I haven't read the comics myself, but I from what little I do know, I thought Alistair killing Maric was done out of sympathey for Maric's situation, and that he hadn't really any other options? But I might be mistaken there. Yavana always seemed abrupt to me, though. Again, haven't read them. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had? XD
I thought his killing Yavana, and the way it happened was TOTALLY out of character for Alistair, even a hardened Alistair. He basically sucker-homicided her. It was not a fair fight, in fact it was downright sneaky and I protested that killing at the time. I realize she was not a nice person, but Alistair fell below her level with his sneaky murder knife to the gut move.
They never had "genuinely good" characters. It's all about perspective.
I'm sure Loghain didn't think Alistair was super good when he hacked his head off in front of his daughter.
At least the combat was mano a mano and Loghain had the opportunity to win and have Alistair kneeling waiting for the killing blow.
Because D&D morality is disgusting.
Why shouldn't Bioware bring back the characters they created?
If the arc was planned from the beginning, and all of the eventualities are looked after, there's no reason that they shouldn't. The returning characters in Mass Effect were (mostly) planned for, and with a few exceptions, didn't need to be significantly changed from some potential arcs in order accommodate their return.
This was not the case with Dragon Age. A beheaded Leliana being magically alive is only the most extreme example, but pretty much every character has incongruous arcs in order to remove the need to address the varied endings/fates in DA:O.
An equally fair question to ask would be "why should BioWare bring back characters?"
There's no inherent reason why they should, or they shouldn't. If it can be done organically, I'm fine with it. If a character requires a convoluted explanation to get them where they are from where they were - especially when it requires knowledge of comics/novels to fill in the gaps for it to make sense - I'm not okay with it.
If the arc was planned from the beginning, and all of the eventualities are looked after, there's no reason that they shouldn't. The returning characters in Mass Effect were (mostly) planned for, and with a few exceptions, didn't need to be significantly changed from some potential arcs in order accommodate their return.
This was not the case with Dragon Age. A beheaded Leliana being magically alive is only the most extreme example, but pretty much every character has incongruous arcs in order to remove the need to address the varied endings/fates in DA:O.
An equally fair question to ask would be "why should BioWare bring back characters?"
There's no inherent reason why they should, or they shouldn't. If it can be done organically, I'm fine with it. If a character requires a convoluted explanation to get them where they are from where they were - especially when it requires knowledge of comics/novels to fill in the gaps for it to make sense - I'm not okay with it.
In Leliana's case I do agree that was poor planning, but Alistair and Morrigan their roles wasn't really an issue (though I'd like if King Alistair/Queen Anora had more of a role)
As for the comics/novels, Bioware likes to expand their world through them it's the same case with Mass Effect and they mostly account for them by the codex if people don't read the comics/novels
As for the comics/novels, Bioware likes to expand their world through them it's the same case with Mass Effect and they mostly account for them by the codex if people don't read the comics/novels
That's fine, until someone goes to play one of their games and a dramatically changed character relies on a paragraph in the codex to explain it.
When that happens, there is no emotional connection to the new character if the player wasn't there for the story. For the people who followed the story through the novels and comics, it may well work fine. For those that didn't, it ends up feeling contrived at best, forced at worst.
What has me concerned is that player agency has been dramatically reduced in order to accommodate the return of characters. I don't need to see a character I love come back to enjoy the game as much, but I sure do need that player agency for it to feel like a Dragon Age game, to me. I don't think the sacrifice is worth it. I'm not even sure all of the writers feel it is, either.
It's like people are allergic to characters growing and developing, learning from their past experience etc etc.
It's just silly having their personalities set in stone from the moment they first see them.
It's like people are allergic to characters growing and developing, learning from their past experience etc etc.
I don't think "coming back from the dead" qualifies as "growing and developing." Besides, what made DA:O great, in part, was that the characters did grow and develop during the game. And then half of those arcs were written away because they were incongruous with the sequels, which is not growth or development.
It's just silly having their personalities set in stone from the moment they first see them.
All of the characters in DA:O experience growth during the story, depending in part on player choices. Leliana, Morrigan, Alistair, they all experience changes that are a consequence of their experiences during the game. No one is arguing that the characters should not evolve. If they hadn't, I seriously doubt that the characters in DA:O would be beloved to their fans the way that they are.
What is silly is reducing what people are saying to absurdity in order to dismiss their point of view.
I'm not talking about Leliana resurrecting.
And just because your character in DAO helped them grow, it doesn't mean they should stick to what they learned from them.
I get the feeling some have never seen people change in real life.
I'm not talking about Leliana resurrecting.
It is one of the changes that was made to include her in the sequels, which is why the rest of us are talking about it.
And just because your character in DAO helped them grow, it doesn't mean they should stick to what they learned from them.
The kind of continuity that we're discussing doesn't require them to. I don't recall anyone saying "all the characters should behave exclusively according to what they learned from the Hero of Ferelden." That seems like yet another example of reductio ad absurdum.
I get the feeling some have never seen people change in real life.
And again, using reductio ad absurdum to dismiss others' point of view. No one has said the characters shouldn't change. As I already explained, the characters experienced growth and change as part of DA:O, and that is integral to what made the game great.
They've had genuinely good characters. Even now with their new attitude towards characters there is one or two genuinely good characters per game, but not nearly as much as there used to be.
At least the combat was mano a mano and Loghain had the opportunity to win and have Alistair kneeling waiting for the killing blow.
I highly doubt that made Anora feel any better.
Didn't she get his blood on her too? 
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