289 réponses à ce sujet

[vertigomez]

Loghain in Morrigan's clothing.
 
CANNOT UNSEE.
 

[Seraphim24]

Ok, after re-playing DAO and after that reading the comics and playing DAI again, I have to say: WTF is wrong with Leliana and Alistair, in DAO I would suspect that Zevran, Oghren or Morrigan would have  a darker outcome, but Zevran leaves the crows and its aware of the other persons,as i understood, now he only kills who deserve it, and Morrigan and Oghren are both lovely parents while Leliana and Alistair got crappy behaviours instead.

 

Leliana was a lovely, innocent and faithful woman, beside she was a bard, she really had not done anything really bad, I know that killing Marjolaine hardens her, but even if u dont hardened her, she shows a really dark personality on DAI, in fact the cause sometimes requires hard decisions, but what worries me is that she even killed an old friend and did not show any remorse for that.

 

Alistair fell even more down I think, the first time i saw him i thought "well, he is really stupid and little childish, but at least he has good heart", later i read the comics and i thought "well, thats hardened alistair king, the outcome could be pretty different if not hardened and he is not king", but regardless king or not, hardened or not, is stated that the comics events happens anyway, which means that anyway he double crossed yavana with a poor excuse (thats the kind of betrayal that you expect from a carta thug, not from him) and let meric die, even when maevaris was telling him that there was a way to save him, same that leliana, 0 regret for yavana and barely pity for his father, somehow he just needed the comics to fall from my grace and even earn some of my hate.

 

 

I'm just curious, am I the only one who thinks about them in such way?

 

Apparently flaws are cool.

[Zetheria Tabris]

I'm surprised you thought Zevran would stay away from the Crows and become a sort of vigilante or something to that degree; he sees nothing wrong with killing so him continuing as an assassin to make a living made sense. Despite what he says after Taliesen's death, it would be odd if the Crows did not realise he was not dead since the stories mentioning him or someone of his description would travel far. Zevran likely began dealing with the Crows again because of his disagreement with their mandatory retirement plan and possibly stayed to reform them.

 

 

I was under the impression that Zevran was rebelling against the Crows and only killed them or people who were considered a threat? Zev actually seems to have become a better person.

[Deztyn]

This! stop with the huge cameos of old characters just for the sake of fan service, the only thing that they can do is regurgitate for them some useless part in the story, instead i see a great appreciation for the new characters of DAI  Solas,Sera,Cassandra ecc.., and well ......Cullen always on the top that is not a surprise....... if they will bring back someone for DA4 the will be Solas and ugh..... Cullen even if he is not needed.

 
Cullen is always needed.
 

Loghain situation is very delicate, i do not understand of why he venting his frustration on Loghain rather than the archdemon who is the real source of the problems.

 
Errr... because the man is at least partly responsible for the deaths of everyone Alistair cared about at Ostagar, including his father figure? Because Loghain hired Jowan to poison Eamon, the other man he looked at as a father, resulting in Connor becoming an abomination that may have killed everyone Alistair knew growing up as a child, and most definitely destroyed the village he grew up in? Because Eamon's (see: Alistair's) family may have also died because of that? Because Loghain hired people to kill him and the Warden and spread rumors that they were traitors and the ones responsible for Cailan's death? Because Loghain's powergrab divided the realm, making it easier for the Darkspawn horde to ravage the land unchecked?
 
... yeah. He was just venting his frustrations at the wrong target.
 

And for Alistair, he's useless if he is not a pawn, when Duncan died, he didn't know what to do, then he served under Flemeth's and HoF's command and if HoF would die on the Joining, then Alistair somehow got a better army than us, and still he loses against a bunch of darkspawn, on the comics he could save Maric if he wouldn't killed Yavana, and of course, he has done a wonderful job running Ferelden, so good that half of buildings still being ruins, the darkspawn still roaming free and the Venatori just burned down Denerim with a single fireship, well done moron!

 
Alistair is 19 in Origins, and has spent his entire life being told what to do by other people, and have had them expressly tell him over and over again that nothing he wants really matters. Have to cut the boy some slack. He handles things better than most real life teenagers would. And he only loses in the Darkspawn Chronicles because they have the supreme power of the PC on their side.
 
Pretty much everything that happens in Inquisition with Alistair as King also happens under Anora. So... a little unfair to put that all on him.
 

The whole concept of characters 'hardening,' as in bad, pragmatic characters are 'hardened' and good naive characters are 'soft,' and that guiding a character along the right path means convincing them to 'soften their heart to the world' or something of the sort is inanely idiotic.
 
When dealing with people like Leliana in Inquisition, both in fiction and real life, the very last thing they need is some sycophant whimpering to them "I know it's hard...but you just need to have faith in the world...please, please do the right thing."
 
What should have happened is the Inquisitor getting in her face, grabbing her by the chin and commanding her "You'll follow my orders to the letter, and my orders are that we don't do this. If such a task is beyond your competence, I would happy to find you a position more suited to your abilities. You can serve the Inquisition by scrubbing floors. Am I understood?"

 
... if I felt that I could do this without meeting her murderknife I would. Oh. How I would.

[Marlena_8]

Especially the sideboob.

 

I think overall what the game's world does it harden people; blight, war, dragons... it's a dangerous world to live in for everyone and some people, especially someone like Alistair who has to constantly make tough decisions, it gets a little hard to keep the lighthearted person they used to be.  In reading the Stolen Throne Maric always went through a similar change.

[KaiserShep]

Well, she's a female character. It probably wouldn't be wise to have the likely-male protagonist crack her across the face like Shepard does to Zaeed. People tend to get antsy about that sort of thing. Not like she's being obnoxious like the reporter lady.
 
Is grabbing her by the chin not an acceptable thing?

I'm trying to visualize actually grabbing someone by the chin. Like is it holding with two fingers? Is it a half caress half stranglehold? Is it like when you make someone do a fish face?

[vertigomez]

Especially the sideboob.

Mmmm, Loghain sideboob...










I'll be in my bunk.

[Yggdrasil]

I too didn't care for Alistair killing Yavana, but my understanding is that he blames her and Flemeth's meddling for starting all the misfortune he and his country suffered.  Without Maric leaving the country to fulfill his promise, everything (Cailan's death, Loghain's betrayal, the civil war and Alistair being forced into the role of king) wouldn't have happened.  I think his rage stems from the Witches destroying lives for their rituals and manipulations, since Yavana had just tried to manipulate his cooperation by saying that Maric could take over the duties of kingship if he helped her.

[Master Warder Z_]

Aka she had it coming

[Hair Serious Business]

First good guys always make best bad guys because their "ex-beliefs" got destroyed by something.

 

Second Leliana was never innocent sweet naive girl that thinks that world is filled with rainbows and unicorns even though she appears to be as such! She was a bard,she used to manipulate and betray people like it was just a game.Play her DLC or just pay attention to what she says she has done in past and what she thinks of it...hell just pay any attention to the things she is saying at all and then tell me where is "innocent" part in there at all.She is well aware of everything,she admits part of her enjoyed fooling people,she is even proud at how good she is at manipulating others and also she was No.1 pervert in DAO beside Zevran lol Leliana used to be more fun in DAO that was thing with her while in DA:I she is more like "Lets kill someone >8D" and I'm like "O______O".

As for Alistair thing in comic he has done confused me most about him but can't say I'm surprised much at his new personality because of thing I said at start people with highest beliefs always get all their beliefs crashed fast and that is fact pretty much.

[Andromelek]

Alistair is 19 in Origins, and has spent his entire life being told what to do by other people, and have had them expressly tell him over and over again that nothing he wants really matters. Have to cut the boy some slack. He handles things better than most real life teenagers would. And he only loses in the Darkspawn Chronicles because they have the supreme power of the PC on their side.

Pretty much everything that happens in Inquisition with Alistair as King also happens under Anora. So... a little unfair to put that all on him.

:

If you mean our current teenagers yeah, but he would still kind of sucking comparing with real medieval teenagers or with other fictional teenagers.

As for the DAI background, I really love the game, but I have to point that actually is more influenced by bioware's own canon (where Alistair is king) rather by your choices; many relevant outcomes were retconned, left in the air, or never mentioned on any media.

[Deztyn]

If you mean our current teenagers yeah, but he would still kind of sucking comparing with real medieval teenagers or with other fictional teenagers.

As for the DAI background, I really love the game, but I have to point that actually is more influenced by bioware's own canon (where Alistair is king) rather by your choices; many relevant outcomes were retconned, left in the air, or never mentioned on any media.

 

Alistair is a pretty badass warrior who has no problem jumping into battle against terrifying beings ripped from a horror story. Is not only willing to go on a quest to save the world from the Archdemon with no support and no real hope of success, but he'll also twist the Warden's arm into doing it with him. If the Warden tries to refuse---really, your only options are 'let Alistair and Flemeth convince you to go on a fools quest to end the Blight' or 'turn off the game'. He's also savvy enough to realize that the success of your mission hinges on getting the support of the Fereldan nobility and gives you a clear direction on how to do that, Really, you could win the game if you follow every bit of advice Alistair gives throughout it. Might be down a few companions. (RIP Zev)

 

The only area he fails at in Origins is leading. And that's largely because he's had the idea that he can never, ever, ever lead forcefed to him his entire life, and was never even allowed to make his own life choices. So he's insecure about his ability to do it successfully and is happy to give control to someone he recognizes is better equipped to lead than he is. But if that someone isn't there, as in the Darkspawn Chronicles, he does step up and do it himself, and he does it better than anyone but the player character could.

 

So yeah, I guess I don't really see the suck here.

 

Really, there's no reason to assume that Bioware thought 'This is what happens if Alistair is king' and applied it across the board. It's just as likely they decided, 'This is what happens to Fereldan.' without thinking about any particular worldstate.

[Killdren88]

You run a nation recovering from a civil war and blight for years then the mage templar war happens. See how cheery you are by that point.

[Silcron]

I-seriously?!

Ali-bear, why you gotta be like that? 

 

It's more of him seeing Yavanna as a threat to not just him, but with her plan about dragons to people around the world. SInce he's the king of Ferelden he sees it as his duty to deal with a potential threat to his people such as dragons being more and more common. So he murders her.

[Master Warder Z_]

I wouldn't call gutting a evil witch murder per say.

[Dean_the_Young]

If the arc was planned from the beginning, and all of the eventualities are looked after, there's no reason that they shouldn't. The returning characters in Mass Effect were (mostly) planned for, and with a few exceptions, didn't need to be significantly changed from some potential arcs in order accommodate their return.

 

This was not the case with Dragon Age. A beheaded Leliana being magically alive is only the most extreme example, but pretty much every character has incongruous arcs in order to remove the need to address the varied endings/fates in DA:O.

 

An equally fair question to ask would be "why should BioWare bring back characters?"

 

There's no inherent reason why they should, or they shouldn't. If it can be done organically, I'm fine with it. If a character requires a convoluted explanation to get them where they are from where they were - especially when it requires knowledge of comics/novels to fill in the gaps for it to make sense - I'm not okay with it.

 

While I agree with the gist of your point, Mass Effect is the last story I'd cite to support it. Mass Effect's handling of returning and re-occuring characters was horribly planned in terms of prior planning and cross-game character development, frequently abandoning prior development and consistently using ad hoc character changes to force them in. About the only three characters that actually consistently developed across the games were the Virmire Survivor (whose arc of trust-doubt-reconciliation/death panned across the games), Mordin (whose ME3 crisis of conscience was well foreshadowed by ME2), and Miranda (if you destroyed the base). Pretty much everyone else was, well...

 

Liara gets a reboot just about every single episode, to the point that it's fair to ask her mental stability. Much has been written already, but 'barely a child awkward innocent geek acheologist' to 'amateur information broker and cold vengeance' to 'very good galactic crime lord' didn't exactly have much character development showing the changes from A to B.

 

Wrex had the start of a consistent character arc of fatalism giving way to optimism and re-engagement in ME2. Unfortunately his entire political system, basis of reform, and means of ensuring his influence are abandoned in mass with the genophage cure, which obliterates his power base the moment no one needs him for access to breeding. Bioware definitely didn't think the implications of that one out, and instead just handwove it.

 

Garrus had a solid character arc in ME1, in which he was the young buck being mentored by Shepherd to come to terms with his passion-vs-rules mentality. He ends the game resolved to depart and focus on his new job... which he kicks, abandoning all development, to be Shepherds side kick and a new revenge plot that makes no difference regardless. After which he gets a case of the Shepherd nepotism effect and has Generals saluting him in his self-admitted token force... until he quits that too to play side kick again, much to no one's objection when he leaves.

 

Tali had no character arc in ME1, serving as a codex on chicken legs, but was given a darker and edgier reboot in ME2 to make her romanceable. After demonstrating a lack of leadership in all three of her narrative events, ME3 made her an Admiral anyway and treats her as the one competent one while the rest of the Admiralty board flip-flops all over the place to seem incompetent by comparison.

 

 

ME2 was even worse, since the devs outright admitted they hadn't planned for the Suicide Missions implications on ME3, where every single character who could die was rendered non-critical for all future plot lines. And as for how they were handled...

 

Grunt pretty much lacks a character arc, but then his character in ME2 was pretty static in the first place: he likes to fight, and what do you know. He still likes to fight.

 

Jack goes from a resolved criminal with severe emotional connection issues unless fucked by Shepherd's magic penis to... apparently some super-teacher, despite having never mentioned any desire or ambition or inclination or even ability relating to kids or others before.

 

Jacob goes from the most morally sound and emotionally stable person on the ship to a potential adulterer.

 

Legion and the Geth did a complete reversal of the moral of their ME2 loyalty mission, which was that Synthetics are Differenet and That's Okay. Hail pinnochio!

 

 

And so on.

[Steelcan]

my only complaint with what you wrote Dean is on Miranda. She wasn't developed consistently, her ME3 portrayal is a rehash of her ME2 loyalty mission moments and that's about it.

[Steelcan]

as for the OP

 

here's your reason, in less subtle terms than many else have put it

 

[Dean_the_Young]

my only complaint with what you wrote Dean is on Miranda. She wasn't developed consistently, her ME3 portrayal is a rehash of her ME2 loyalty mission moments and that's about it.

 

I was focusing more on the people who reversed course or went bizaaro than the ones who were static.

 

As far as Miranda, I think it makes a bit of sense if you destroyed the base, since her sister was the obvious leash Cerberus had over her. But I think the Cerberus plot was bungled miserably as well, so what do I know?

[Steelcan]

I was focusing more on the people who reversed course or went bizaaro than the ones who were static.

 

As far as Miranda, I think it makes a bit of sense if you destroyed the base, since her sister was the obvious leash Cerberus had over her. But I think the Cerberus plot was bungled miserably as well, so what do I know?

No arguments over Cerberus in ME3, I've spent more time than I care to admit talking about that particular train wreck.

[Steelcan]

This thread reminds me of a thread I made a while back on Leliana's depiction through out the games and how inconsistent its been.

 

I think BioWare has wanted to re-imagine the more popular characters in their franchises in order to make them applicable in each game.  Leliana served as the group's conscience (along with Alistair and Wynne) and to offset the "evil" (for want of a better term) characters like Morrigan, Zevran, and Sten.  However in DA:I she serves as the edgy spymaster willing to do what must be done for the greater good (except when she doesn't or is cautioned against such by the Inquisitor further adding to the mess that is her characterization) to counter balance the more naive approach of Josephine or the forever practical if somewhat unimaginative Cullen.

 

This has been done with little consideration for the overall arc of the character, and as Dean pointed out, its hardly a phenomenon unique to DA. 

 

My counter example for a characterization that has been done well and something that BioWare should look more closely at, was Jaime Lannister from ASoIaF.  He's a main character who has a fantastic arc from universally despised arrogant regicide, to one of the books' "good" guys.  By carefully planning out his development, Martin (and the show writers) have been able to transform an almost thoroughly unlikeable character to a much more sympathetic one. And best of all, this development doesn't happen off-screen nor is it rushed. (now here's hoping he survived the current season)

[KaiserShep]

Yeah but Origins' evil choices are kind of out there. I don't see even this version of Leliana agreeing with a lot of the off-the-wall shite you can do in Origins. Like, would our spymaster agree with sacrificing city elves for an increase in constitution? I doubt it.

[myahele]

Its ironic that the hateful and dark characters from are much more even tempered and friendly. Just take a look at urthemiel vs Leliana

[Wulfram]

Characters becoming darker can work, but it feels like a lazy default sometimes.

ME3 character development wasn't great, but it benefited from having the ongoing relationship with Shepard to keep a connection. One of the things that makes Leliana not work in DAI is the weirdness caused by having a new player character.

[Andromelek]

I wouldn't call gutting a evil witch murder per say.

"Evil"? Solas, Flemeth and her known daughters have always tried to push the world in the right way, they lie and manipulate, maybe because they are aware that the people is too stupid to understand even if they're explained, and that they could have mindlessly murdering reactions (just like ****** Alistair) and no one has been harmed for being manipulated by them, and before someone comes to tell me "Oh, but the Blight would have a different outcome with Maric in charge" allow me to remind you that in The Stolen Throne, Flemeth warned Maric that Loghain's idealism would lead him to betray him one day, she also warned him about the Blight, so Maric left Ferelden aware of what could happen. The Witches do not have the obligation to help the people to solve their messes that were caused by their own stupidity, so they can't be called evil, and whilst Solas and Flemeth have screwed it on their time, Yavana, Morrigan and probably the Orlesian and Nevarran Witches of the Wilds are free from all fault.

I never liked Alistair, he complains too much, he is illogical, stupid and allows his feelings influence his actions as any selfish lout would do, still I gave him the chance to get his vengeance, earn the crown and survive the Archdemon I also trusted Morrigan, waiting that she would use her baby to do something bad, the time passed and what I saw? Alistair still acting as a douchebag and murdering a woman, blaming her for something that happened because the Architect was trying to stop the Blights and because his father agreed to leave Ferelden, while Morrigan never attempted to use her demigod child to rise in power, in fact the child at most is weird, but nothing else, and Morrigan watch over him better than most parents on Thedas, it seems that I've trusted the wrong dude, I think that I'm going to re play DAO and execute him right now.