124 réponses à ce sujet

[Steppenwolf]

A lot of people pretty seem sour on the idea of going to the Andromeda, getting their panties in a bunch about leaving the Milky Way. But what would it take to make such a story work for such a person? I threw together an outline of a story that I think would accommodate pretty much every desire, short of just staying in the Milky Way.

 

·         Wormhole opens near Citadel shortly after Reaper invasion begins

·         Study of wormhole reveals it to lead to Andromeda and be powered in Andromeda

·         Andromeda appears ideal for colonization

·         Council begins building Ark, gathering the greatest minds and paragons of each race along with several hundred healthy individuals of each race to ensure genetic diversity for colonization

·         Humans, Asari, Turians, Salarians, Krogans, Quarians, Batarians, Vorcha, Elcor, Hanar, Drell, Raloi are included, the Ark containing over 4,000 passengers

·         Security of the Ark is handled primarily by human, Turian, Asari, Krogan and Batarian military personnel

·         Scout missions/landing parties/forward parties are comprised of/handled by a team of special “N7” operatives of various races that have been trained by the combat minds available to the Ark

·         The PC was a last-minute addition to the special N7 program, selected by human and Asari officials in charge of the Ark mission for valor in a battle against Reaper forces

·         PC is given inflated title, Admiral, and used as political puppet by Council races to maintain control over mission in the future

·         “Admiral” is lauded as “the best soldier in the galaxy” and “his/her experience is crucial to mission success”

·         Admiral has much to prove to N7 unit and security personnel after being put in charge of N7 and security without special N7 training

·         After Cerberus nearly takes the Citadel the Ark is launched through the wormhole early

·         Once through the wormhole the Ark is in a massive solar system

·         The nearest planet appears habitable for most races so the N7 unit is deployed to scout it

·         After an uneventful scouting mission, led by the Admiral, the diplomats in charge insist on going to the planet’s surface and having a ceremony

·         Before their private ship lands it is fired upon and destroyed by an unknown, unseen enemy

·         The N7 unit scrambles back to the Ark, the Admiral shaken by what happened

·         With the leadership of every race dead command of the Ark falls to the highest ranking officer on board, the Admiral

·         Now tasked with command of the entire mission in what is quickly becoming a hostile system the Admiral must contend with politics, logistics, potential mutinies, disrespectful N7 and security personnel, the ins and outs of long-term space travel and the problems of every person onboard the Ark, ranging from serious to mundane. And to keep the N7 unit in line he/she must still lead away missions, scout missions and forward parties

·         As the Ark ventures further into the alien solar system they become of the Remnant, a powerful, mysterious and seemingly ancient race, and realize that they are responsible for opening the wormhole

·         As the mission progresses the Admiral will unravel the Remnant’s plan and discover why the races of the Milky Way were rescued from the Reapers only to be thrown headlong into a dangerous struggle with native races of the Andromeda galaxy

 

Yes? No? Maybe?

[Nitrocuban]

Wormhole right next to the Citadel and Shepard didn't know?

Nahhh

[Guanxii]

Just because Andromeda may or may not have been confirmed doesn't prove Ark Theory. It's not that nobody else couldn't have predicted the change of galaxy to avoid the ending - it's just that we all thought BioWare were better than that, evidently not.

 

The citadel being a portal to other galaxies (relay networks) is the only semi-plausible explanation that works for me.

 

Either that or the Salarians et al study the reaper caucuses and begin incorporating the reaper drive-cores into their ship designs. Eventually somebody figures out how to combine reaper drive cores together to create ships theoretically capable of intergalactic travel but the cost is so prohibitive in terms of the number of cores required that that it requires the resources of governments. With the cat out of the bag, the council races all frantically embark on a 22nd century equivalent of the space race to Andromeda.

[Ahriman]

• With Reaper engine technology Council secretly builds large Ark ship able to reach Andromeda with main races in stasis pods.
• Turns out some asari reprogrammed their pods and are awaken in midway of 200 years long travel. They declare that N7 operative which was put in charge of the operation was indocrinated in one of most recent missions and is going to lead Reapers to colony. Therefore s/he cannot be awaken unless Reapers are surely neutralised.
• On arrival asari, hanars and salarians set up on oceanic paradise (let's call it Sur'Thessia). Humans are dropped on harsh cold planet to "avoid commander related tensions" and are slowly turning viking from such life and the grudge about being dropped there. Turians and voluses colonize suitable for them planets and try to stay neutral from rising human/asari conflict.
• Finally 70 years later grandchildren of humans who were supposed to be commander's soldiers launch rescue mission to Sur'Thessia.
• Newly awaken commander finds out that everyone is so busy with their problems that they ignore freaking structures which look they were abandoned yesterday. According to Council this has to be priority, but commander also has to deal with upcoming racial war (or don't, who cares).

Totally not Mass Effect: Inquisition. Bioware should hire me, I know.

[Steppenwolf]

Wormhole right next to the Citadel and Shepard didn't know?
Nahhh

Why would Shepard magically know about it? The Citadel is nestled in that pink-ish purple gas cloud stuff so no one would even be able to see a wormhole if it was in there.

-snip-

wat

[NM_Che56]

There's gonna be a lot of time between the events of Mass Effect 3 and the new one.  So there's plenty of things that can happen.

 

[Steppenwolf]

A wormhole could lead to any time. It could lead to the exact same spot you entered it but 1,000,000 years later.

[NM_Che56]

A wormhole could lead to any time. It could lead to the exact same spot you entered it but 1,000,000 years later.

According to what I've read (on wikipedia) and heard (Neil deGrasse Tyson), wormholes are unstable and would be likely to collapse.  Something would need to stabilize them to keep them from collapsing.  Enter new tech post ME3?

[Steppenwolf]

According to what I've read (on wikipedia) and heard (Neil deGrasse Tyson), wormholes are unstable and would be likely to collapse.  Something would need to stabilize them to keep them from collapsing.  Enter new tech post ME3?

They could theoretically be created and sustained with enough energy. Enter alien tech from the Andromeda galaxy.

[CrutchCricket]

I'm not a fan of the convenient wormhole, another ancient race (yet anyway) and Cerberus making an appearance. I would rather the Ark travel conventionally. How about this:

 

-The Ark creators started out as an independent reasearch outfit, a bit on the "crackpot side" that were researching ways to either improve conventional FTL or better yet actually try and get to the next galaxy. They are mostly ignored until the Citadel incident. After which a Benefactor, high up in the Council (a Spectre perhaps, or even a Councilor) who believes Shepard about the Reapers arranges to send all recovered pieces of Sovereign's drive core to them in order to build a better drive.

-The idea for the Ark is born this way, as a ship that can carry enough of each race to start over and that isn't dependent on relay technology at all. The best minds of each race get together to design and build this thing, all sworn to secrecy. Publically the Reapers are decried as a hoax. You could also use this to retcon the Council's stupidity throughout the games- they weren't morons, they just didn't trust that Shepard (or any of them) could defeat the Reapers.

-The project is funded by the asari (and the Shadow Broker at first but this file isn't in his usual databases and as such Liara has no clue about the project when she takes over). The turians provide security, the salarians medical and biological services, and the quarians are the primary designers of the life support and agricultural systems. A third faction of geth (again schisming from the "True Geth") also assist with desigining and operating the ship. Humans are support in all roles, and everyone else is just along for the ride.

-The Ark is constructed as a massive ship, with stasis pods, and the largest drive core the galaxy's ever seen. Either they managed to replicate the Reapers' dischargeless drives, or else the bulk of the ship is massive batteries that store the charge until full and are then jettisoned.

-The Ark launches as the Reapers hit. The populations are only told they are drawn in a lottery for a bunker facility, and all are screened for potential indoctrination before they even see the ark.

-The organic passengers and non-essential crew go in stasis. The essential organic crew take the Ark out to dark space. They go in stasis once they're well clear of the galaxy and the Ark slowly makes its way to Andromeda.

- We begin by thawing in our new home.

 

I like the idea of the PC being a newbie added at the last minute and most of the other ideas I haven't specifically called out. Don't know if the token Admiral title is the best though. We already have Tali for that. I also think we can retcon relays to be an even more ancient form of travel than then Leviathans, which were told how to build them Contact style, i.e. it was an intergalactic message from an even more ancient race. This is just so we can bring relays into Andromeda. They're a pretty iconic part of the series.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I also think we can retcon relays to be an even more ancient form of travel than then Leviathans, which were told how to build them Contact style, i.e. it was an intergalactic message from an even more ancient race. This is just so we can bring relays into Andromeda. They're a pretty iconic part of the series.

The Mass Relays were built by the Reapers. The Leviathans didn't have them. The Leviathan we talk to states this. 

[Vazgen]

This setup reminds me of RAGE  

One of the tricky parts of this setup is that there won't be a major presence of known races, a few colonies at most. Whether it's good or bad is debatable. 

[RatThing]

So the player character would be the leader of the expedition? Nah, why would he participate in dangerous missions then? Plus I think Shepards role and importance was already owerdrawn. I don't want to play space Jesus again (nor space Moses), I want to be the underdog this time.

[Cameron Star]

Sorry, sounds as ridiculous as project Lazarus and working with Cerberus in ME2. Actually, wouldn't be too surprised if Bioware did something like this.

"Hey, look, a wormhole! Should we tell Shepard/Space Jesus?"

"Does she need to know?"

"I supposed not. Let's keep it under wraps in case things turn sour."

[Steppenwolf]

I'm not a fan of the convenient wormhole, another ancient race (yet anyway) and Cerberus making an appearance.

As opposed to an inconvenient wormhole? Not every galaxy can be full of young races. And Cerberus wouldn't be making "an appearance." Their role would be limited to their attack on the Citadel, as I explained.
 

Don't know if the token Admiral title is the best though. We already have Tali for that.

Tali wouldn't be in this game so I fail to see the relevance.
 

I also think we can retcon relays to be an even more ancient form of travel than then Leviathans, which were told how to build them Contact style, i.e. it was an intergalactic message from an even more ancient race. This is just so we can bring relays into Andromeda. They're a pretty iconic part of the series.

...but you just said you didn't want another ancient race.
 

This setup reminds me of RAGE 
One of the tricky parts of this setup is that there won't be a major presence of known races, a few colonies at most. Whether it's good or bad is debatable.

Hundreds of individuals from every race, all on the same ship isn't enough?
 

So the player character would be the leader of the expedition? Nah, why would he participate in dangerous missions then? Plus I think Shepards role and importance was already owerdrawn. I don't want to play space Jesus again (nor space Moses), I want to be the underdog this time.

I already explained that. The PC can't not be in control of the game.
 

Sorry, sounds as ridiculous as project Lazarus and working with Cerberus in ME2. Actually, wouldn't be too surprised if Bioware did something like this.
"Hey, look, a wormhole! Should we tell Shepard/Space Jesus?"
"Does she need to know?"
"I supposed not. Let's keep it under wraps in case things turn sour."

Why would they tell Shepard? They would have to keep it a secret from the Reapers and Shepard is at constant risk of being taken or indoctrinated by the Reapers.

[Malanek]

I'm not a fan of the convenient wormhole, another ancient race (yet anyway) and Cerberus making an appearance. I would rather the Ark travel conventionally. How about this:

 

-The Ark creators started out as an independent reasearch outfit, a bit on the "crackpot side" that were researching ways to either improve conventional FTL or better yet actually try and get to the next galaxy. They are mostly ignored until the Citadel incident. After which a Benefactor, high up in the Council (a Spectre perhaps, or even a Councilor) who believes Shepard about the Reapers arranges to send all recovered pieces of Sovereign's drive core to them in order to build a better drive.

-The idea for the Ark is born this way, as a ship that can carry enough of each race to start over and that isn't dependent on relay technology at all. The best minds of each race get together to design and build this thing, all sworn to secrecy. Publically the Reapers are decried as a hoax. You could also use this to retcon the Council's stupidity throughout the games- they weren't morons, they just didn't trust that Shepard (or any of them) could defeat the Reapers.

-The project is funded by the asari (and the Shadow Broker at first but this file isn't in his usual databases and as such Liara has no clue about the project when she takes over). The turians provide security, the salarians medical and biological services, and the quarians are the primary designers of the life support and agricultural systems. A third faction of geth (again schisming from the "True Geth") also assist with desigining and operating the ship. Humans are support in all roles, and everyone else is just along for the ride.

-The Ark is constructed as a massive ship, with stasis pods, and the largest drive core the galaxy's ever seen. Either they managed to replicate the Reapers' dischargeless drives, or else the bulk of the ship is massive batteries that store the charge until full and are then jettisoned.

-The Ark launches as the Reapers hit. The populations are only told they are drawn in a lottery for a bunker facility, and all are screened for potential indoctrination before they even see the ark.

-The organic passengers and non-essential crew go in stasis. The essential organic crew take the Ark out to dark space. They go in stasis once they're well clear of the galaxy and the Ark slowly makes its way to Andromeda.

- We begin by thawing in our new home.

What you always have to ask with this sort of setup, even if you accept the massive sudden advance in technology just for the propulsion, is why doesn't the ship simply turn around when the reapers are defeated? They would know because of quantum entanglement communicators, and even if they could move at full reaper speed, they would only be a tiny fraction of the way into their journey. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

You then have to ask why Andromeda? There are other closer galaxies.

 

I also think the speed at which this project would have had to be put together is beyond what is feasible. Realistically experimenting with the technology, assembling the resources, organising all the different species, and then building such a ship capable of enduring such a journey would take much, much longer. And remember it all has to be done with the utmost secrecy, which although not impossible, would slow things down.

 

I also think gathering all the different species is also silly. Just a pointless risk and massive cost increase, the Asari would be better to go it alone.

 

I can accept quite a lot of handwaving, but I always think stories are better when they evolve naturally and logically. If you really decide you need something to happen, and have to write a scene to engineer that, you need to put a lot of thought into it and try to make it as robust as possible. Adding such technology into the mass effect world is also asking for trouble imo. The writers seemingly want to get away from the endings. But if this hastily assembled group of resource starved scientists can do it, how much easier would it be for god-shep or synthereapers to make the journey. I'm guessing the writers want to keep them apart.

[Heimdall]

I'm not a fan of the convenient wormhole, another ancient race (yet anyway) and Cerberus making an appearance. I would rather the Ark travel conventionally. How about this:

 

-The Ark creators started out as an independent reasearch outfit, a bit on the "crackpot side" that were researching ways to either improve conventional FTL or better yet actually try and get to the next galaxy. They are mostly ignored until the Citadel incident. After which a Benefactor, high up in the Council (a Spectre perhaps, or even a Councilor) who believes Shepard about the Reapers arranges to send all recovered pieces of Sovereign's drive core to them in order to build a better drive.

-The idea for the Ark is born this way, as a ship that can carry enough of each race to start over and that isn't dependent on relay technology at all. The best minds of each race get together to design and build this thing, all sworn to secrecy. Publically the Reapers are decried as a hoax. You could also use this to retcon the Council's stupidity throughout the games- they weren't morons, they just didn't trust that Shepard (or any of them) could defeat the Reapers.

-The project is funded by the asari (and the Shadow Broker at first but this file isn't in his usual databases and as such Liara has no clue about the project when she takes over). The turians provide security, the salarians medical and biological services, and the quarians are the primary designers of the life support and agricultural systems. A third faction of geth (again schisming from the "True Geth") also assist with desigining and operating the ship. Humans are support in all roles, and everyone else is just along for the ride.

-The Ark is constructed as a massive ship, with stasis pods, and the largest drive core the galaxy's ever seen. Either they managed to replicate the Reapers' dischargeless drives, or else the bulk of the ship is massive batteries that store the charge until full and are then jettisoned.

-The Ark launches as the Reapers hit. The populations are only told they are drawn in a lottery for a bunker facility, and all are screened for potential indoctrination before they even see the ark.

-The organic passengers and non-essential crew go in stasis. The essential organic crew take the Ark out to dark space. They go in stasis once they're well clear of the galaxy and the Ark slowly makes its way to Andromeda.

- We begin by thawing in our new home.

 

I like the idea of the PC being a newbie added at the last minute and most of the other ideas I haven't specifically called out. Don't know if the token Admiral title is the best though. We already have Tali for that. I also think we can retcon relays to be an even more ancient form of travel than then Leviathans, which were told how to build them Contact style, i.e. it was an intergalactic message from an even more ancient race. This is just so we can bring relays into Andromeda. They're a pretty iconic part of the series.

That's pretty much the same lines my idea of how this would work runs on, though I'm somewhat doubtful about geth inclusion.  I have two ideas about how the ship is manned in the journey.

• Young Asari skeleton crew stays outside stasis to monitor and maintain the ship's systems.  They have the lifespan to make the trip without it.  Hmm, what if we got an Asari squadmate who was actually born from that crew and grew up on the ark while everyone was in stasis?  Could have an interesting perspective.
• The Quarians involved are Exiles, socially deviant from the Migrant Fleet, maybe their interest in AI research was what got them exiled.  So they develop an AI to manage the Ark's systems and take care of the passengers. (Slightly more unlikely because that would require people to accept an AI's help)
• Or they could do both, I guess.

I also don't like the idea of finding relays in Andromeda.  I know they're iconic, but i don't think they're necessary .  I also suspect the game will start long after the passengers have established some sort of settlement, but it will be destroyed or prove unable to sustain them.  That's while they'll sending out long range scout ships into the surrounding star clusters to search for new homes, one of which will be our PC (Or maybe our PC will be the XO, and take charge after something terrible happens).  That falls in the idea of starting out unproven and growing into a heroic role.  Some people seem to think the new PC will be in charge of whole Ark operation, but I'd rather not.  There are two ways they could handle the PC's origins in this case:

• They didn't wake up everyone from stasis at once (A matter of how many people they could support with available resources) so the PC boarded the Ark in the MW.
• The PC was born in Andromeda.

[CrutchCricket]

The Mass Relays were built by the Reapers. The Leviathans didn't have them. The Leviathan we talk to states this.

Doesn't rule out the Leviathans having the concept from elsewhere and never getting the chance to build them before getting liquified.
 

As opposed to an inconvenient wormhole? Not every galaxy can be full of young races. And Cerberus wouldn't be making "an appearance." Their role would be limited to their attack on the Citadel, as I explained.

Yes, actually. And Cerberus appearing in the game constitutes an appearance. Finally, what's the purpose of the underlined?
 

Tali wouldn't be in this game so I fail to see the relevance.

Word choice. We've already seen the token admiral. How about something else, token though it may be?
 

...but you just said you didn't want another ancient race.

I don't want one appearing in a major way. One being implied (and maybe dealt with later) is fine.
 
 

What you always have to ask with this sort of setup, even if you accept the massive sudden advance in technology just for the propulsion, is why doesn't the ship simply turn around when the reapers are defeated? They would know because of quantum entanglement communicators, and even if they could move at full reaper speed, they would only be a tiny fraction of the way into their journey. It just doesn't make any sense.

Well I think the belief the Reapers can't be stopped is integral to this group. So waiting for the harvest to be over just to live in fear for the next 50,000 years (and don't get me started on the problems of passing down information like that for that period of time) doesn't seem like the best idea.

Then you also have to consider the vanguard. Another Sovereign's going to be left behind. What happens if it finds the Ark returning? Wouldn't it attack, or worse call some of its buddies back?
 

You then have to ask why Andromeda? There are other closer galaxies.

That's one for the devs.
 

I also think the speed at which this project would have had to be put together is beyond what is feasible. Realistically experimenting with the technology, assembling the resources, organising all the different species, and then building such a ship capable of enduring such a journey would take much, much longer. And remember it all has to be done with the utmost secrecy, which although not impossible, would slow things down.
 
I also think gathering all the different species is also silly. Just a pointless risk and massive cost increase, the Asari would be better to go it alone.

Maybe but they can't build it alone, and within the time alloted, and with secrecy. And every race they ask for help is going to want a spot on the Ark. I can see them not taking some species that can't significantly contribute. That's pretty much the minor races (except maybe the volus).
 

I can accept quite a lot of handwaving, but I always think stories are better when they evolve naturally and logically. If you really decide you need something to happen, and have to write a scene to engineer that, you need to put a lot of thought into it and try to make it as robust as possible. Adding such technology into the mass effect world is also asking for trouble imo. The writers seemingly want to get away from the endings. But if this hastily assembled group of resource starved scientists can do it, how much easier would it be for god-shep or synthereapers to make the journey. I'm guessing the writers want to keep them apart.

I think it's better than the alternative, throw stuff at wall, see what sticks. AKA the previous Mass Effect writing process.

[Malanek]

Well I think the belief the Reapers can't be stopped is integral to this group. So waiting for the harvest to be over just to live in fear for the next 50,000 years (and don't get me started on the problems of passing down information like that for that period of time) doesn't seem like the best idea.

Then you also have to consider the vanguard. Another Sovereign's going to be left behind. What happens if it finds the Ark returning? Wouldn't it attack, or worse call some of its buddies back?

You're missing the point about what I am saying. They know the reapers have been defeated, it's not a belief of they can be defeated. The journey has to take at least 200 years. After 1 or 2 years at the very most Shep has somehow ended the Reaper threat. They will know about this on the Ark, because of quantum entanglement communicators, before the ship has hardly left the station. The entire motivation for going on this risky voyage has been removed.

[Heimdall]

You're missing the point about what I am saying. They know the reapers have been defeated, it's not a belief of they can be defeated. The journey has to take at least 200 years. After 1 or 2 years at the very most Shep has somehow ended the Reaper threat. They will know about this on the Ark, because of quantum entanglement communicators, before the ship has hardly left the station. The entire motivation for going on this risky voyage has been removed.

...Except QEC communications are only point to point.  The MW end of their communicator could have been lost, abandoned, or the people manning it been killed by the Reapers.  the damage left behind by the Reapers is beyond extensive.  If it was remotely located, it could be centuries before someone found it.

[CrutchCricket]

That's pretty much the same lines my idea of how this would work runs on, though I'm somewhat doubtful about geth inclusion.  I have two ideas about how the ship is manned in the journey.

• Young Asari skeleton crew stays outside stasis to monitor and maintain the ship's systems.  They have the lifespan to make the trip without it.  Hmm, what if we got an Asari squadmate who was actually born from that crew and grew up on the ark while everyone was in stasis?  Could have an interesting perspective.
• The Quarians involved are Exiles, socially deviant from the Migrant Fleet, maybe their interest in AI research was what got them exiled.  So they develop an AI to manage the Ark's systems and take care of the passengers. (Slightly more unlikely because that would require people to accept an AI's help)
• Or they could do both, I guess.

I also don't like the idea of finding relays in Andromeda.  I know they're iconic, but i don't think they're necessary .  I also suspect the game will start long after the passengers have established some sort of settlement, but it will be destroyed or prove unable to sustain them.  That's while they'll sending out long range scout ships into the surrounding star clusters to search for new homes, one of which will be our PC (Or maybe our PC will be the XO, and take charge after something terrible happens).  That falls in the idea of starting out unproven and growing into a heroic role.  Some people seem to think the new PC will be in charge of whole Ark operation, but I'd rather not.  There are two ways they could handle the PC's origins in this case:

• They didn't wake up everyone from stasis at once (A matter of how many people they could support with available resources) so the PC boarded the Ark in the MW.
• The PC was born in Andromeda.

 

The issue with staying awake wouldn't just be lifespan but isolation and boredom. Also oxygen, water, food etc. Not to mention plain old "human" error if they touch anything they shouldn't. Agree about the quarians being exiles though.

 

I included the relays only because they're iconic and to counter the arguments of "why is this a Mass Effect game if everything's changing?" And I would prefer to be in charge of the Ark itself and start the story when we get to Andromeda. Maybe even a prologue with the launch. Making it about the Ark itself makes it more interesting and less like it's deliberately running away from something.

 

You're missing the point about what I am saying. They know the reapers have been defeated, it's not a belief of they can be defeated. The journey has to take at least 200 years. After 1 or 2 years at the very most Shep has somehow ended the Reaper threat. They will know about this on the Ark, because of quantum entanglement communicators, before the ship has hardly left the station. The entire motivation for going on this risky voyage has been removed.

Why would they? If they launch right when the Reapers hit they'd be well on their way (and in stasis) by the time the war's over.

[Nitrocuban]

You're missing the point about what I am saying. They know the reapers have been defeated, it's not a belief of they can be defeated. The journey has to take at least 200 years. After 1 or 2 years at the very most Shep has somehow ended the Reaper threat. They will know about this on the Ark, because of quantum entanglement communicators,

It's save to assume that there won't be any communication possible between the ark fleet and citadel space. Not too hard for the writers to find a reason for it actually.

[Malanek]

It's save to assume that there won't be any communication possible between the ark fleet and citadel space. Not too hard for the writers to find a reason for it actually.

I can't accept it is safe to assume that at all. Quantum communicators are cheap enough for reporters to hold onto and they are untraceable. To say the arkship would not be interested in monitoring the situation is beyond credibility imo.