124 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You have quotes that say they build them. You don't have quotes that say they invented them.

 

And the codex is written in-universe. It can be wrong.

 

Seriously though, what do you need to see that they did it? Them having the idea lightbulb over their heads and drawing blueprints of the things? It is established that the Mass Relays are the Reaper's creation, not some unidentified race that predates them. 

 

Weren't you one of the ones against them throwing things away or changing things? Yet here you are saying they should do exactly that?

[CrutchCricket]

It is established that the Mass Relays are the Reaper's creation, not some unidentified race that predates them.

"Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short,^{%5B1%5D%5B2%5D} is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work."
 
They can outright ignore and overwrite things but I think most people agree it works best when you can do so without an overwrite. And in this case, it can be done.

Weren't you one of the ones against them throwing things away or changing things? Yet here you are saying they should do exactly that?

What are you talking about?

[Vortex13]

I don't particularly care for the wormhole method. Assuming that the leak is true, and we are in fact headed to Andromeda for the new title, I would prefer the refugees to travel to the new galaxy via a sleeper ship; crossing the intergalactic void via 'conventional FTL' means. A portal that links directly to Andromeda suddenly showing up right when the Reapers begin to encroach on the Milky Way is just way too much of a contrivance for me. 

 

Instant teleportation to the new setting would certainly be easier to write, but in addition to feeling like a complete cop out, it would also forgo any intriguing story elements that will most certainly happen in a direct journey. Just plopping the PC and the other races into the Helius Cluster ignores any possible character growth that would happen in a centuries long trip. As some others have said in other topics about the subject, just magically zipping over to Andromeda won't feel as 'earned' as a group of refugees that banded together and made the long, arduous transition the hard way. In a conventional journey you would see a change in each race's respective cultures; you could see old resentments fade away, and new rivalries take their place, you could see a shift in perspectives as the isolated nature of the ark ship would force the species to re-evaluate their role in things. Would the Asari still be the diplomatic leaders of the rag-tag survivors after spending hundreds of years together with the shorter lived species? Would the Krogan, still maintain their aggressive nature when dealing with the cramped conditions for so long? Etc. If we just instantly make it to Andromeda we won't see any of that development, the Asari will still be the Asari as they go and colonize new planets, the Krogan will still be the gruff warrior race, etc. 

 

 

 

As far as the ship goes, why construct a massive Ark, or a fleet of smaller ark ships when an asteroid would accomplish the same exact thing with far fewer resources. There is no need to build a ship that can house all of the refugees of the Milky Way, a large asteroid would be able to accommodate them easily. There is no need for the galaxy to scrounge for precious Ezo reserves when an Ezo rich asteroid, similar to Omega, would come pre-supplied the the necessary fuel for the journey. There would be no need to construct an elaborate discharge system for the static build up of the engines, as the rocky exterior of the asteroid could provide a perfect spot for grounding the current safely away from the living quarters. Just take some conventional engines, strap them on an Ezo rich asteroid, hollow out a small portion for the crew and blast off for Andromeda. As the refugees begin to use up the Ezo they can turn that space into more living, hydroponic or storage sections, making the vessel extremely effective at resource management.

 

 

Assuming that an asteroid comparable in size to Omega is used, and it can travel at the standard speed of 12 light years per day, it would take the inhabitants 570 - 571 years to cross the 2.5 million light year gap between the Milky Way and Andromeda, easily within an Asari, or Krogan's lifetime, and more than enough fuel since all of the Ezo would be used for the ark ship instead of supplying the Terminus systems.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There would be no need to construct an elaborate discharge system for the static build up of the engines, as the rocky exterior of the asteroid could provide a perfect spot for grounding the current safely away from the living quarters. 

Um, that doesn't solve the problem. You just replaced metal with rock. The discharge would still build up in the asteroid and eventually cook the crew because there is nowhere for that energy to go. Not to mention if that energy hits one of the Eezo pockets in the asteroid. 

[CrutchCricket]

As far as the ship goes, why construct a massive Ark, or a fleet of smaller ark ships when an asteroid would accomplish the same exact thing with far fewer resources. There is no need to build a ship that can house all of the refugees of the Milky Way, a large asteroid would be able to accommodate them easily. There is no need for the galaxy to scrounge for precious Ezo reserves when an Ezo rich asteroid, similar to Omega, would come pre-supplied the the necessary fuel for the journey. There would be no need to construct an elaborate discharge system for the static build up of the engines, as the rocky exterior of the asteroid could provide a perfect spot for grounding the current safely away from the living quarters. Just take some conventional engines, strap them on an Ezo rich asteroid, hollow out a small portion for the crew and blast off for Andromeda. As the refugees begin to use up the Ezo they can turn that space into more living, hydroponic or storage sections, making the vessel extremely effective at resource management.
 
 
Assuming that an asteroid comparable in size to Omega is used, and it can travel at the standard speed of 12 light years per day, it would take the inhabitants 570 - 571 years to cross the 2.5 million light year gap between the Milky Way and Andromeda, easily within an Asari, or Krogan's lifetime, and more than enough fuel since all of the Ezo would be used for the ark ship instead of supplying the Terminus systems.

Interesting idea. Way to think outside the box.
 
I may still prefer an entirely constructed ship because I think you can get really creative with the design and it's a fun intellectual excercise to try and factor in the difficulties of the trip and design for them (I liked thinking up the desposable static batteries for example). And it's almost as fun to find out how someone else did it. Explaining how you stick some engines on an asteroid seems simplistic by comparison and almost anticlimactic.
 

Um, that doesn't solve the problem. You just replaced metal with rock. The discharge would still build up in the asteroid and eventually cook the crew because there is nowhere for that energy to go. Not to mention if that energy hits one of the Eezo pockets in the asteroid.

Wouldn't the rock act as ground for the static charge?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short,^{%5B1%5D%5B2%5D} is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work."
 
They can outright ignore and overwrite things but I think most people agree it works best when you can do so without an overwrite. And in this case, it can be done.

What are you talking about?

I know what a retcon is. 

I never said they couldn't do that. They can do whatever they want. Whether it is justifiable is another issue entirely, and what you're suggesting is not. 

 

I thought you were one of the "They can't throw away established setting/lore/tech/etc for a DEM" posters, but you willing to do that proves I was mistaken since you clearly don't care what they throw away to do it. 

[Vortex13]

Um, that doesn't solve the problem. You just replaced metal with rock. The discharge would still build up in the asteroid and eventually cook the crew because there is nowhere for that energy to go. Not to mention if that energy hits one of the Eezo pockets in the asteroid.

Sure it would, take some debris from your mining operations and discharge the built up static electricity into them as you jettison the unusable waste material.

It wouldn't be a perfect system, but attaching a grounding rod to a piece of junk rock you are throwing away would help midigate a lethal build up.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Sure it would, take some debris from your mining operations and discharge the built up static electricity into them as you jettison the unusable waste material.

It wouldn't be a perfect system, but attaching a grounding rod to a piece of junk rock you are throwing away would help midigate a lethal build up.

It would probably be easier to have the asteroid be unmanned but strap FTL engines on it and have it fly tethered or something with the ark/arks. That way you can discharge into it all you want without having to worry about people inside and you still have the resources in it available.

[CrutchCricket]

I know what a retcon is. 

I never said they couldn't do that. They can do whatever they want. Whether it is justifiable is another issue entirely, and what you're suggesting is not. 

 

I thought you were one of the "They can't throw away established setting/lore/tech/etc for a DEM" posters, but you willing to do that proves I was mistaken since you clearly don't care what they throw away to do it. 

Sure it is. The justification is bringing over established lore/tech (and a very iconic example to boot) and that it can be done without actually changing established fact, but simply adding to it.

 

I couldn't care less for the setting, and I'm fairly confident core lore and tech will carry over (i.e. the "mass effect", ME fields, biotics etc). Nothing of value is being thrown away (from what we know or at least suspect at the present time). The relays I'm not so sure of because they're a part of the setting, but the least intrusive method to still have them is what I'm suggesting. And I think we should have them, given their iconic nature. They're easily one of the most recognizable symbols of Mass Effect.

[Steppenwolf]

First off, why so hostile?

What?
 

You never indicated the Cerberus attack would be told and not shown.  I do have to ask what the point is then, though.

We already experienced the Cerberus attack. Why would we experience it all over again? There would be no point.
 

The difference is we get a break from dealing with ancient races for a while.

One game and you're fine with more ancient races? And the context of the races doesn't matter at all? If a race is old they're just Reapers?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Sure it is. The justification is bringing over established lore/tech (and a very iconic example to boot) and that it can be done without actually changing established fact, but simply adding to it.

 

I couldn't care less for the setting, and I'm fairly confident core lore and tech will carry over (i.e. the "mass effect", ME fields, biotics etc). Nothing of value is being thrown away (from what we know or at least suspect at the present time). The relays I'm not so sure of because they're a part of the setting, but the least intrusive method to still have them is what I'm suggesting. And I think we should have them, given their iconic nature. They're easily one of the most recognizable symbols of Mass Effect.

The least intrusive way to have them is showing the Reapers having had gone to Andromeda to reap it like they do us. They are capable of the trip, there is nothing saying they haven't, and they don't have to show up so don't have to worry about them. Simple. 

[CrutchCricket]

What?
 

We already experienced the Cerberus attack. Why would we experience it all over again? There would be no point.
 

One game and you're fine with more ancient races? And the context of the races doesn't matter at all? If a race is old they're just Reapers?

Your replies were very snappish, with no real reason. You do know we mostly agree on this topic right?

 

I looked back to the OP and the Cerberus attack is now in reference to the Citadel, i.e. the coup attempt. Either you edited it or I misread it. If it's the latter, my bad.

 

I can't say when I'd be fine to go back to ancient races. And I never said context doesn't matter. But first it was the Protheans, giving us/influencing everything about our world, then it was the Reapers, then it was the Leviathans. Not to mention the cycles codify this type of thing in universe. All I'm saying is let's give that a rest for a bit. Something secondary that can be followed up later (like the hypothetical race that transmitted relay tech in my other suggestion) is fine, but not as a centerpoint of the plot this time around.

 

The least intrusive way to have them is showing the Reapers having had gone to Andromeda to reap it like they do us. They are capable of the trip, there is nothing saying they haven't, and they don't have to show up so don't have to worry about them. Simple. 

No that'd be quite intrusive seeing as how everyone and their mothers are sick of the Reapers. Not to mention it's counter-intuitive and unlike other things we've talked about actually this actually would invalidate the trilogy. All the crap we went through, we go to a new galaxy and now it's still Reapers we have to deal with? ****. That.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No that'd be quite intrusive seeing as how everyone and their mothers are sick of the Reapers. Not to mention it's counter-intuitive and unlike other things we've talked about actually this actually would invalidate the trilogy. All the crap we went through, we go to a new galaxy and now it's still Reapers we have to deal with? ****. That.

Did you even read my post all the way through? The Reapers don't have to even appear. Just have them all be in the Milky Way reaping when the ship leaves and have the Andromeda vanguard taking one of their centuries-long hibernations. No invalidations at all, unlike us magically having the capability for the trip when we can't even travel our own galaxy without their toys. 

[CrutchCricket]

Did you even read my post all the way through? The Reapers don't have to even appear. Just have them all be in the Milky Way reaping when the ship leaves and have the Andromeda vanguard taking one of their centuries-long hibernations. No invalidations at all, unlike us magically having the capability for the trip when we can't even travel our own galaxy without their toys. 

Whether the vanguard hibernates or not is irrelevant. It'll wake up eventually. One Reaper vs the Ark? Do you want the game to just be a Critical Mission Failure Screen?

 

No. No more Reapers.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Whether the vanguard hibernates or not is irrelevant. It'll wake up eventually. One Reaper vs the Ark? Do you want the game to just be a Critical Mission Failure Screen?

 

No. No more Reapers.

Yes, eventually it will. Centuries from when the game takes place. The colonists would have been able to build enough to take down one Reaper. And that's even if it spots us since we're apparently staying in a single cluster. Plus Reapers only act when it is time to harvest, which cold be millennium from when we get to Andromeda.

 

In short, no reason to address their presence other than "Hey look, Mass Relays are here too." 

[Vazgen]

Having mass relays can be quite interesting. The Reapers were dealt with in Milky Way but their legacy remains... 

[Vortex13]

Interesting idea. Way to think outside the box.
 
I may still prefer an entirely constructed ship because I think you can get really creative with the design and it's a fun intellectual excercise to try and factor in the difficulties of the trip and design for them (I liked thinking up the desposable static batteries for example). And it's almost as fun to find out how someone else did it. Explaining how you stick some engines on an asteroid seems simplistic by comparison and almost anticlimactic.

 

Thanks, though I can really take credit for it. Asteroid colonization and their use as colony ships have been considered quite extensively in the real world:

 

http://en.wikipedia....f_the_asteroids

 

I just imagined such a scenario in the Mass Effect universe. It may not be the most ascetically pleasing, but as with many things in life, sometimes the best solution is also the simplest.

 

 

The big reason why I am against the construction of an intergalactic vessel (or vessels) is all the narrative hoops you have to jump through, and all the stretch of credibility you have to use in order to explain such a project happening. Why would people spend valuable resources that could be going towards the Crucible or to at least combating the Reapers on building a massive ark from scratch? How would commander Shepard, or the other people in charge of the Crucible not know of this ark ship, especially if it is taking away said resources from the Crucible? Etc.

 

If the ark project is something that takes place before the Reaper invasion, then why? Why would people try to make a generational ship for intergalactic travel when less than 1% of the Milky Way has been explored? Why would people supply the funds and/or resources for such an endeavor when there would be no incentive (see Reapers) to leave the galaxy in the first place? Etc.

 

You could provide an explanation, but it would require so much mental gymnastics that it would come across as even more contrived that the discovery of the Crucible plans on Mars right when the Reapers invaded.

 

 

The beauty of using an asteroid is that you don't have to explain why the races of the galaxy would abandon the Crucible project and frivolously spend resources on constructing an ark ship. The answer is they don't. Locating a suitable rock, digging a little hole for them to live in, strapping engines on the back, and then sending it off towards Andromeda would take less resources and time than it would to make a light cruiser, let alone a one-of-a-kind ark ship (fleet).

[CrutchCricket]

Yes, eventually it will. Centuries from when the game takes place. The colonists would have been able to build enough to take down one Reaper. And that's even if it spots us since we're apparently staying in a single cluster. Plus Reapers only act when it is time to harvest, which cold be millennium from when we get to Andromeda.

 

In short, no reason to address their presence other than "Hey look, Mass Relays are here too." 

So we're supposed to get up to ME1 levels of strength in a new unknown galaxy in a few hundred years. And also hope that the vanguard assumes direct control at a crucial moment and that we can destroy its avatar and stun it long enough to take the shot. Not sure if serious or...

 

Oh and here's another fun fact- if the Reapers are in Andromeda, that means its relay network is tied to ours (it's stupid to assume the Reapers take the long way around every time). Which means the Crucible energy went to Andromeda as well and we've got busted relays and/or green **** there too, with less than a tenth of the resources to deal with them that we would've had here. Oh and whoever lives there just got its **** ruined out of the blue (or red, or green) with their transportation system and any tech past some arbitrary intelligence threshold exploding or maybe they wake up with green eyes and TRON lines to boot. Nice work escaping the endings there...

 

The Reaper are done. There is no version where bringing them back is a good idea.

[Steppenwolf]

Your replies were very snappish, with no real reason.

That wasn't my intent. Tone is hard to convey and easy to misinterpret in text form.
 

I looked back to the OP and the Cerberus attack is now in reference to the Citadel, i.e. the coup attempt. Either you edited it or I misread it. If it's the latter, my bad.

You just misread it. No big deal. When posts get edited they have a beige bar at the bottom that says when they were edited.
 

I can't say when I'd be fine to go back to ancient races. And I never said context doesn't matter. But first it was the Protheans, giving us/influencing everything about our world, then it was the Reapers, then it was the Leviathans. Not to mention the cycles codify this type of thing in universe. All I'm saying is let's give that a rest for a bit. Something secondary that can be followed up later (like the hypothetical race that transmitted relay tech in my other suggestion) is fine, but not as a centerpoint of the plot this time around.

The Protheans aren't really ancient though. They only predate our cycle by 50,000 years and their empire was inherently short lived because of the Reaping cycle. On the galactic scale that's really nothing.

[CrutchCricket]

The big reason why I am against the construction of an intergalactic vessel (or vessels) is all the narrative hoops you have to jump through, and all the stretch of credibility you have to use in order to explain such a project happening. Why would people spend valuable resources that could be going towards the Crucible or to at least combating the Reapers on building a massive ark from scratch? How would commander Shepard, or the other people in charge of the Crucible not know of this ark ship, especially if it is taking away said resources from the Crucible? Etc.

 

If the ark project is something that takes place before the Reaper invasion, then why? Why would people try to make a generational ship for intergalactic travel when less than 1% of the Milky Way has been explored? Why would people supply the funds and/or resources for such an endeavor when there would be no incentive (see Reapers) to leave the galaxy in the first place? Etc.

 

You could provide an explanation, but it would require so much mental gymnastics that it would come across as even more contrived that the discovery of the Crucible plans on Mars right when the Reapers invaded.

 

 

The beauty of using an asteroid is that you don't have to explain why the races of the galaxy would abandon the Crucible project and frivolously spend resources on constructing an ark ship. The answer is they don't. Locating a suitable rock, digging a little hole for them to live in, strapping engines on the back, and then sending it off towards Andromeda would take less resources and time than it would to make a light cruiser, let alone a one-of-a-kind ark ship (fleet).

Why make the Ark instead of the Crucible? Maybe because you don't believe in the Crucible, or that you can defeat the Reapers. As for the origins of the Ark you can make it an eccentric project that got repurposed in light of the Reapers like I suggested. It does require some explanation. But not an exorbitant amount I don't think.

[CrutchCricket]

You just misread it. No big deal. When posts get edited they have a beige bar at the bottom that says when they were edited.
 

The Protheans aren't really ancient though. They only predate our cycle by 50,000 years and their empire was inherently short lived because of the Reaping cycle. On the galactic scale that's really nothing.

You can turn that off. I did. Didn't like the bar lol.

 

Yes they're not ancient from a galactic standpoint. But they're ancient relative to us. And they did fulfill the Ancient Precursor role before the Reaper reveal, and even a bit after with building up the asari, observing us and so on.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Having mass relays can be quite interesting. The Reapers were dealt with in Milky Way but their legacy remains... 

Exactly. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So we're supposed to get up to ME1 levels of strength in a new unknown galaxy in a few hundred years. And also hope that the vanguard assumes direct control at a crucial moment and that we can destroy its avatar and stun it long enough to take the shot. Not sure if serious or...

 

Oh and here's another fun fact- if the Reapers are in Andromeda, that means its relay network is tied to ours (it's stupid to assume the Reapers take the long way around every time). Which means the Crucible energy went to Andromeda as well and we've got busted relays and/or green **** there too, with less than a tenth of the resources to deal with them that we would've had here. Oh and whoever lives there just got its **** ruined out of the blue (or red, or green) with their transportation system and any tech past some arbitrary intelligence threshold exploding or maybe they wake up with green eyes and TRON lines to boot. Nice work escaping the endings there...

 

The Reaper are done. There is no version where bringing them back is a good idea.

First, drop the attitude please 

 

Second, no.

In Mass Effect 3 we have weapons that make it not as a one-sided fight. We see a few dreadnought using their main cannons rip a Reaper Dreadnought apart in the Battle of Earth. And again, you're assuming we'll appear next to the vanguard and he'll react, despite there being nothing to support that notion and stuff to go against it, like the fact Sovereign didn't do anything until the harvest was ready. 

 

The Relays in one galaxy don't have to be connected to the relays of another. Each can run on their own system. Thus we have Relays but they aren't affected by the Crucible thus we escaped the endings.

 

That's why I've been saying for several posts now that just because the Reapers have been there and like here left Mass Relays doesn't mean they'll show up again in the plot of the new games. Just like how our cycle has Prothean technology but the Protheans(not counting Javik since he is optional DLC) never show up. 

[Vortex13]

Why make the Ark instead of the Crucible? Maybe because you don't believe in the Crucible, or that you can defeat the Reapers. As for the origins of the Ark you can make it an eccentric project that got repurposed in light of the Reapers like I suggested. It does require some explanation. But not an exorbitant amount I don't think.

 

 

You can explain it, but how much does it come across as complete contrivance is the question.

 

 

A quick, desperate scramble to assemble a generation vessel out of an Ezo rich asteroid would make more sense if the galaxy is looking for last second attempts to avoid extinction. It would make the desperation of the people of the galaxy more engaging than if we secretly had an Ark ship mothballing in some warehouse somewhere.

[Ahriman]

It was directly said on multiple occassions that Reapers do not go to other galaxies, they harvest Milky Way and then sleep in the dark space. Unles they retcon it, there should be no signs of Reapers in Andromeda. Besides we already saw screenshots of remnant structures and possibly their gateways.

Spoiler