545 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

I disagree on the DAO comment in part. You do need to learn the system to faceroll it, but that's not a sign of good design. The game is - like D&D - using a broken mess of a ruleset that's really counterintuitive and poorly documented (e.g. for mages anything not labeled "Magic" is waste of an ability point). The worst offender has to be spell descriptions. Most of them are almost troll options, giving no useful description.

DAI is simpler but easier to learn. I don't think that's a mark against it.

DAOs enemies don't really have abilities. Ignoring mages/emissaries, all you have (as far as I recall) are wild animals that use overwhelm, the archers that use multishot and ogres that throw rocks and desire demons that occasionally cast magic.

 

The thing is you don't have to learn a thing to beat DA:I at all.

 

You do  have Mark of Death in DA:O, wich enemies also use. And various abilities tied to weapons. Shield Bash and all that. Marjolaine had plenty abilities, I think. All the bard ones. I would venture a guess and say that enemies used\had access to the same abilities + spells that the player had.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The thing is you don't have to learn a thing to beat DA:I at all.

 

You do  have Mark of Death in DA:O, wich enemies also use. And various abilities tied to weapons. Shield Bash and all that. Marjolaine had plenty abilities, I think. All the bard ones. I would venture a guess and say that enemies used\had access to the same abilities + spells that the player had.

 

Remember EA wants to make their games easier. 

 

Next DA game will be like Candy Crush. 

[Guha sharan]

Basically Bioware needs to bring back the death Animation. Stop trying to make Thedas look like a place Dora the Explorer belongs in. And understand that we are not toddlers and can handle more than 8 abilities at a time.

[AresKeith]

Basically Bioware needs to bring back the death Animation. Stop trying to make Thedas look like a place Dora the Explorer belongs in. And understand that we are not toddlers and can handle more than 8 abilities at a time.

 

They really don't

[Saphiron123]

The praise here is that DA:O was better for having mechanically copied and pasted DA:O's warriors and archers as enemies? I'm not sold on the idea that just re-using the ability ruleset of the PC is better design than uniquely creating enemies that share their own abilities but don't overlap with the player. 

 

I mean, literally, humanoid enemies in DA:O were reskins of the player. 

So your criticism of DAO is they didn't just make one mob and hit copy and paste but gave them different clothes and looks? If that's a problem, I hope it's one I see in future dragon age games because i'm tired of flying books. I can deal with wolves and spiders being exactly the same, but not humans. It's 2015 and they had this down years ago.

Enemy mages used to have faces, with actual features, and a variety of clothing even within a faction (it was still simple, a red robe here, a fizzy robe there, etc, but at least SOME effort was made)... sure there was some repeat models but at least it's not like now where they all look exactly alike within every single faction. Almost no variation in clothes or faces. How is that lazier? I'd rather have a variety of different looking npcs based on the player then one version per faction multiplied ad nausium.

And uniquely crafted enemies are great, but making every mage in the game have fire mines, ice mine, and barrier and having zero variation is not uniquely crafted. They're crappy cut and paste mobs with no spell list. Hell, there is no variation between a hurlock alpha and a bandait heavy, except look. It's the same enemy. And once in a while they'd have the same face as your PC by random draw, but a lot didn't, they'd have different skin color, different hair, different facial hair, different facial shape... it's also an old game, so some repetition is to be expected. NONE of the non-boss/plot enemies in DAI have anything unique about them. Each faction has one model. That is not an improvement.

They took characters that once had variation and basically turned them into cut and paste mobs like wolves. One is the same as the next.

There are better ways to deal with replicating the PC then to cut most unique npc features out and make them all copies. 

[Saphiron123]

They really don't

Wish they would, it was a satisfying end to a fight, and i felt like i was using an actual sword as opposed to a blunt stick. DAI feels outdated, with the tiny touches left unfinished.

It's combat in a mature game, it doesn't have to be PG.

[Saphiron123]

You've obviously forgotten a lot about DAO. The enemies had almost all the abilities you could get if not all. They also had abilities unique to them. So STFU if you don't know what you're talking about.

Not all, but certainly most especially in the main game. Anything sten could do there were types of enemies who could do it too, even stuff like rally and war cry.

[Saphiron123]

Paralyze is now part of combo effects; see here:

http://dragonage.wik...s_(Inquisition)

It's really not the same. I miss having 15 guys charge me and having mass paralyze to zero in on the most dangerous, that was fun. There's no precision in DAI, no crowd control, no major threats on the field who can mess up your party. EA wants a child to be able to play it and you know what? They could. 

[Elhanan]

It's really not the same. I miss having 15 guys charge me and having mass paralyze to zero in on the most dangerous, that was fun. There's no precision in DAI, no crowd control, no major threats on the field who can mess up your party. EA wants a child to be able to play it and you know what? They could.

Those spell mines that gather complaints are Crowd Control. And if one leaves an archer or mage unattended for long in the higher levels, they will witness a threat.

[o Ventus]

It's really not the same. I miss having 15 guys charge me and having mass paralyze to zero in on the most dangerous, that was fun. There's no precision in DAI, no crowd control, no major threats on the field who can mess up your party. EA wants a child to be able to play it and you know what? They could. 

 

Implying that DAO was any more complex or difficult.

 

A group of enemies rush you --> you (or a party member) cast Rune of Paralysis --> the group of enemies is stunned and gibbed

 

Really, mages were so hilariously OP in DAO that you had to be TRYING to make mistakes in combat to even take damage, let alone fail entirely.

[Rawgrim]

Implying that DAO was any more complex or difficult.

 

A group of enemies rush you --> you (or a party member) cast Rune of Paralysis --> the group of enemies is stunned and gibbed

 

Really, mages were so hilariously OP in DAO that you had to be TRYING to make mistakes in combat to even take damage, let alone fail entirely.

 

Mages were overpowered. Absolutely. Kind of why they lock mages up in Mage's Circles in Thedas. Fits with the lore.

 

 

If you didn't put some effort into builds in DA:O, you were toast. I got my ass handed to me plenty in that game the first time I played it. Once I replayed it and knew what to expect, though, the game got very easy.

[Rawgrim]

It's really not the same. I miss having 15 guys charge me and having mass paralyze to zero in on the most dangerous, that was fun. There's no precision in DAI, no crowd control, no major threats on the field who can mess up your party. EA wants a child to be able to play it and you know what? They could. 

 

Probably why one of the EA bosses went public with the "fact" that their games are too hard to play.

[Rawgrim]

Remember EA wants to make their games easier. 

 

Next DA game will be like Candy Crush. 

 

I believe they said their games were too difficult to learn. Which is rather ironic since EA, some years back, decided that manuals were too expensive to add to the games. So they remove the instructions and then say their games are too hard to learn. Not that I would need a manual to learn how to button-mash, though.

[o Ventus]

Mages were overpowered. Absolutely. Kind of why they lock mages up in Mage's Circles in Thedas. Fits with the lore.

 

Yeah, and DAO is also a video game that is to be played. It's poor design (even for a single player game) when one class is so incredibly powerful compared to the others, practically to the point of making the other classes redundant and obsolete. I'm sure that if I bothered, I could solo a run-through of DAO on Hard, if not Nightmare with a mage and no companions.

[Elhanan]

Yeah, and DAO is also a video game that is to be played. It's poor design (even for a single player game) when one class is so incredibly powerful compared to the others, practically to the point of making the other classes redundant and obsolete. I'm sure that if I bothered, I could solo a run-through of DAO on Hard, if not Nightmare with a mage and no companions.

One can solo with a Warrior and Rogue, too; vids have shown it. However, I still took Companions that would not fight, for the dialogue. And in a solo game, class balance does not seem that important, IMO.

The DA series is brilliant; like 'em all even with their differences.

[Rawgrim]

Yeah, and DAO is also a video game that is to be played. It's poor design (even for a single player game) when one class is so incredibly powerful compared to the others, practically to the point of making the other classes redundant and obsolete. I'm sure that if I bothered, I could solo a run-through of DAO on Hard, if not Nightmare with a mage and no companions.

 

Since you are not playing vs other players, the balance between classes is not an issue anyway.

 

I am sure you could solo through the game with most classes, but I doubt you could the first time you played the game.

[In Exile]

So your criticism of DAO is they didn't just make one mob and hit copy and paste but gave them different clothes and looks? If that's a problem, I hope it's one I see in future dragon age games because i'm tired of flying books. I can deal with wolves and spiders being exactly the same, but not humans. It's 2015 and they had this down years ago.

Enemy mages used to have faces, with actual features, and a variety of clothing even within a faction (it was still simple, a red robe here, a fizzy robe there, etc, but at least SOME effort was made)... sure there was some repeat models but at least it's not like now where they all look exactly alike within every single faction. Almost no variation in clothes or faces. How is that lazier? I'd rather have a variety of different looking npcs based on the player then one version per faction multiplied ad nausium.

And uniquely crafted enemies are great, but making every mage in the game have fire mines, ice mine, and barrier and having zero variation is not uniquely crafted. They're crappy cut and paste mobs with no spell list. Hell, there is no variation between a hurlock alpha and a bandait heavy, except look. It's the same enemy. And once in a while they'd have the same face as your PC by random draw, but a lot didn't, they'd have different skin color, different hair, different facial hair, different facial shape... it's also an old game, so some repetition is to be expected. NONE of the non-boss/plot enemies in DAI have anything unique about them. Each faction has one model. That is not an improvement.

They took characters that once had variation and basically turned them into cut and paste mobs like wolves. One is the same as the next.

There are better ways to deal with replicating the PC then to cut most unique npc features out and make them all copies.

No, that's not my criticism of DAO: that's your criticism of DAI that applies with equal force to DAO. It's hypocritical. I'm perfectly fine with enemy templates being reskinned for resource purposes across groups and types. Look at your post - you talk about how all enemy mages had fire/ice mines ... and then praise DAO for giving all enemies the identical skill set: that available to the player.

Enemy mages used to be a joke. If you chose not to simply 1-hit gib them using mana clash, you had a multiple of CC options available just to paralyse them. And that's discount the incredible fireball that had a knockdown effect. Enemy mages were a joke. They were only less of a joke than warriors because at least they could damage you from range before being obliterated from existence.

I don't care if enemies replicate the PC beyond the fact that this is poor design since PC oriented abilities have different dynamics in enemy hands. For example enemies don't heal so that mark of whatever ability is largely useless for you but OP for them. And enemies won't roll 3 mages to overlap fireball and cone of cold, so those spells are OP in your hands.

The only interesting thing bioware did on DAO nightmare was the random 10% spell failure chance.

[In Exile]

The thing is you don't have to learn a thing to beat DA:I at all.

You do have Mark of Death in DA:O, wich enemies also use. And various abilities tied to weapons. Shield Bash and all that. Marjolaine had plenty abilities, I think. All the bard ones. I would venture a guess and say that enemies used\had access to the same abilities + spells that the player had.

You're just wrong. I'm sorry, but aside from offering no proof beyond saying "Google it yourself to prove I'm right" all of the things you cite as effective tactics on nightmare simply aren't good enough. Even if you over level.

As for DAO, I reviewed the wiki and you're right. I just never got to the point enemy warriors or rogues could use abilities since fireball knocked them down and stole 1/3rd of their health. By the time they got back up my party was already mopping them up.

The hardest part of DAO was that you couldn't respec your mages. I got a respec mod once and the game became such an unbearable joke on nightmare that even the difficulty mods couldn't fix it.

There's one trick to DAO: realising that damage spells are way better than anything else since enemies lack the range of buffs, debuffs and resistances you usually have in D&D.

Fireballx3 is like timestop+meteor.

DAI is easier to learn than DAO, sure. But that's not because DAO is harder. It's because DAO trolls you with tons of useless spells and lots of ability options that are really dump stats for the class like willpower and constitution.

[Rawgrim]

You're just wrong. I'm sorry, but aside from offering no proof beyond saying "Google it yourself to prove I'm right" all of the things you cite as effective tactics on nightmare simply aren't good enough. Even if you over level.

As for DAO, I reviewed the wiki and you're right. I just never got to the point enemy warriors or rogues could use abilities since fireball knocked them down and stole 1/3rd of their health. By the time they got back up my party was already mopping them up.

The hardest part of DAO was that you couldn't respect your mages. I got a respec mod once and the game became such an unbearable joke on nightmare that even the difficulty mods couldn't fix it.

DAI is easier to learn than DAO, sure. But that's not because DAO is harder. It's because DAO trolls you with tons of useless spells and lots of ability options that are really dump stats for the class like willpower and constitution.

 

I made zero effort at trying to learn any for of tactics in DA:I, and it worked. I never died once in that game (played it on normal). Someone told me Barrier spell was all I needed and I tried it out. They were right. Try it the next time you play through the game. Barrier + whatever + the odd Focus when you get that ability.

 

How did you knock down those dwarven assassins or shrieks that spawn right in the middle of your party, though? Did you turn the friendly fire off?

 

Well duh. You installed a mod that lets you cheat. No wonder the game got easy.

 

If you only play to power-play, then yes. Most spells are "useless". For roleplaying reasons alot of them can be quite good. And it is more interesting to play a character that has a weakness or two too.

 

Not saying DA:O was a difficult game to play or learn, though. But it did require a bit of effort on the player's part to get into the system and things like that. Setting up your party's tactics was pretty important too.

[In Exile]

I made zero effort at trying to learn any for of tactics in DA:I, and it worked. I never died once in that game (played it on normal). Someone told me Barrier spell was all I needed and I tried it out. They were right. Try it the next time you play through the game. Barrier + whatever + the odd Focus when you get that ability.

How did you knock down those dwarven assassins or shrieks that spawn right in the middle of your party, though? Did you turn the friendly fire off?

Well duh. You installed a mod that lets you cheat. No wonder the game got easy.

If you only play to power-play, then yes. Most spells are "useless". For roleplaying reasons alot of them can be quite good. And it is more interesting to play a character that has a weakness or two too.

Not saying DA:O was a difficult game to play or learn, though. But it did require a bit of effort on the player's part to get into the system and things like that. Setting up your party's tactics was pretty important too.

So now we've gone from auto-attack and barrier are good enough on nightmare to auto-attack and barrier are enough on normal. I'm sure normal is a joke difficulty. But normal on DAO is also a joke. Perhaps harder - especially pre-nerf - but not "hard" or "tactical" in my view.

By the time you run into enemies that spawn into your own cone (i.e., during the Deep Roads) you have glyphs of paralysis and - more importantly - access to either or both of mass paralyse and blood wound. With blood wound alone these enemies are a joke.

If you're talking about RP reasons now we're just getting into the self-nerf. Any game is hard if you nerf yourself.

DAO didn't require more for me than using choke points, 3 mages, direct damage spells from the elemental tree, mass paralyse and glyph of paralysis and one BM/SM PC. That's it.

I also never used tactics (edit: I mean preprogrammed abilities; I used tactical planning but I do that in DAI too). The greatest source of frustration I had in DAO came from not realising what the disable tactics button did until late in PT#1.

Eventually in my later PTs I caved and automated healing use at certain health thresholds since that kind of baby sitting got boring but then I realised this meant activating AI target and auto-attack behaviour.

[Rawgrim]

So now we've gone from auto-attack and barrier are good enough on nightmare to auto-attack and barrier are enough on normal. I'm sure normal is a joke difficulty. But normal on DAO is also a joke. Perhaps harder - especially pre-nerf - but not "hard" or "tactical" in my view.

By the time you run into enemies that spawn into your own cone (i.e., during the Deep Roads) you have glyphs of paralysis and - more importantly - access to either or both of mass paralyse and blood wound. With blood wound alone these enemies are a joke.

If you're talking about RP reasons now we're just getting into the self-nerf. Any game is hard if you nerf yourself.

DAO didn't require more for me than using choke points, 3 mages, direct damage spells from the elemental tree, mass paralyse and glyph of paralysis and one BM/SM PC. That's it.

I also never used tactics (edit: I mean preprogrammed abilities; I used tactical planning but I do that in DAI too). The greatest source of frustration I had in DAO came from not realising what the disable tactics button did until late in PT#1.

Eventually in my later PTs I caved and automated healing use at certain health thresholds since that kind of baby sitting got boring but then I realised this meant activating AI target and auto-attack behaviour.

 

 

I never said I beat the game on Nigthmare, so stop putting words in my mouth. I said others have beaten the game on Nightmare by just using Barrier and button mashing. And I said you could find plenty vids of it on youtube. People even posted them right here on these boards when the game came out. So that is two different things.

 

Yeah but you don't know where or even if enemies will spawn when you play the game the first time, unless you are playing the game while reading a walkthrough.

 

Roleplaying isn't the same as nerfing. There is plenty between nerfing and god-moding. You won't screw up if you have 1 or 2 spells you don't really need.

 

Really? Didn't you say you beat the whole game by simply using 3 fireball spells earlier? Even through the high-dragon is immune to them? No choke points in the dragon fights. Nor at the top of the Tower where you fight the Arch-Demon. Or in the fight vs the Brood Mother, or Loghain, or every open area fight.

 

So you are saying DA:O needed tactics. Which means it requires thought and planning. DA:I doesn't. Glad we agree.

[Saphiron123]

Implying that DAO was any more complex or difficult.

A group of enemies rush you --> you (or a party member) cast Rune of Paralysis --> the group of enemies is stunned and gibbed

Really, mages were so hilariously OP in DAO that you had to be TRYING to make mistakes in combat to even take damage, let alone fail entirely.

See that's the thing though. Mages are SUPPOSED to be OP, on both sides of the conflict. That's why an entire order of religious knights exist solely to control them and hunt down renegades. Because they're dangerous.

Mages in DAI are a joke. They might as well make dragons into human sized irritations, it'd be a similar change.

When a Mage steps onto the field, according to dragon age lore, soldiers quake in their boots. According to DAI lore they're barely worth mentioning compared to archers or warriors.

Mages should be special, and I say this as someone who prefers to play a fighter. They should be the first and most dangerous thing to focus on in combat, and unless you use mana clash (I never do), they should be the biggest threat.

Templars are now useless. It sucks.

[o Ventus]

If mages in the lore are as powerful as they are in DAO gameplay, then the Blight would never have ever posed a threat in all of Thedosian history, because the mages could just mass cast Rune of Paralysis and Fireball.

 

So yeah, saying "they're that strong in the lore!" doesn't really work when it comes to the gameplay. The gameplay is not the lore. The gameplay should at least pretend to be balanced it wants to be fun and not entirely boring and 1-sided.

 

And no, mages are not actually that stupidly OP in the lore. They are highly dangerous, yes, but that's more because of their susceptibility to demonic influence and possession than their raw power (and magic in-universe is physically taxing with the exhaustion of mana). The entire reason the Templars exist is to counter their power and negate magic.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

 

See that's the thing though. Mages are SUPPOSED to be OP, on both sides of the conflict. That's why an entire order of religious knights exist solely to control them and hunt down renegades. Because they're dangerous.

Mages in DAI are a joke. They might as well make dragons into human sized irritations, it'd be a similar change.

When a Mage steps onto the field, according to dragon age lore, soldiers quake in their boots. According to DAI lore they're barely worth mentioning compared to archers or warriors.

Mages should be special, and I say this as someone who prefers to play a fighter. They should be the first and most dangerous thing to focus on in combat, and unless you use mana clash (I never do), they should be the biggest threat.

Templars are now useless. It sucks.

 

This is Bioware. They love to dumb down their own stuff because feels. Also they probably dumbed mages down because of multiplayer and because they are all about forced equality. 

 

If mages in the lore are as powerful as they are in DAO gameplay, then the Blight would never have ever posed a threat in all of Thedosian history, because the mages could just mass cast Rune of Paralysis and Fireball.

 

So yeah, saying "they're that strong in the lore!" doesn't really work when it comes to the gameplay. The gameplay is not the lore. The gameplay should at least pretend to be balanced it wants to be fun and not entirely boring and 1-sided.

 

And no, mages are not actually that stupidly OP in the lore. They are highly dangerous, yes, but that's more because of their susceptibility to demonic influence and possession than their raw power (and magic in-universe is physically taxing with the exhaustion of mana). The entire reason the Templars exist is to counter their power and negate magic.

 

Really ? According to lore Darkspawn have mages to. According to lore Darkspawn were numerous. According to lore the Blight can affect any non-Grey Warden unless they take proper steps to guard themselves against it. 

 

The real problem here is that there is a distinct separation and division between lore and gameplay. A separation that Bioware never saw fit to address at all but saw fit to make even larger. 

 

Put it simply, Bioware is lazy and ridiculous. Lazy enough to make games without consulting both their loremasters and gameplay designers and coming up with a solution that makes sense lore-wise and gameplay wise without having to pull excuses like game balance out of their arses. Lazy enough to just recycle abilities (Rift Mage & Force Mage) instead of coming up with news ones. Ridiculous enough to simply change major parts of a game such as healing and focus without even providing a lore explanation for why that is. Ridiculous enough to create Guard which is Thedas' version of Tech Armor except Thedas is not sufficiently advanced to develop Tech Armor for non magical classes yet even dumb savage beasts like Dragons use it. Lazy enough to reshuffle abilities. Ridiculous enough to come up with superhuman backflips that Dwarves can do. Ridiculous enough to make Tactical Cloak to be a simple damage boost instead of a tactical device. Ridiculous enough to scrap spell combos to replace them with cross class combos without making any codex explaining why. I guess Circle Mages must be working with warriors and rogues to make spells that create cross class combos, even though that makes no sense and the school systems we have are based of Circle research. Ridiculous enough to scrap the old magical schools and replace them with dumbed down elemental schools even though there are Rifts opening up all over the world which is supposed to buff magic, not weaken it. 

 

The list goes on and this does not just apply to Dragon Age but to Mass Effect as well with things like thermal clips and SMG Heat Sinks. Thermal clips are outright inefficient and SMG Heat Sinks break the Laws of Thermodynamics. 

 

On the other hand, if we look at Witcher 3, we see that there is cohesion between lore and gameplay. Geralt is a monster hunter, he has heightened senses and reflexes as well as the capability to consume toxic chemicals. However, he is still a man and he can die if he is hit. They even made the combat very visceral in 3 with awesome executions and chops. 

 

[o Ventus]

 

This is Bioware. They love to dumb down their own stuff because feels. Also they probably dumbed mages down because of multiplayer and because they are all about forced equality. 

 

 

Really ? According to lore Darkspawn have mages to. According to lore Darkspawn were numerous. According to lore the Blight can affect any non-Grey Warden unless they take proper steps to guard themselves against it. 

 

I meant the Blight as in the event, not the disease. If mages in-lore could snap their fingers and lay waste to legions of soldiers like they can do in-game, an army of darkspawn would mean nothing.

 

The only darkspawn mages that exist (as of now anyway) are emissaries, who are exceedingly rare.