258 réponses à ce sujet

[littlebrightpanda]

I think you're drawing a kinda arbitrary line between ghoul and darkspawn in this case, where both are becoming decidedly unique creatures.

 

So ghouls are already existing creatures affected by the taint. Darkspawn are beings created with the taint. I do see a difference there in terms of biology. Ghouls are poisoned by the taint, while darkspawn are venomous. Does that reduce the arbitrary line? 

 

That's why it doesn't make sense to me that a female magister would be "poisoned" by the taint, while her colleagues were turned into something venomous. As we don't know the proper effects of the taint, I could accept that the woman was turned into something broodmother-like, a darkspawn able to reproduce, but I would still not categorize her as a broodmother, based on the "poisoned" vs. "venomous" distinction. 

[Kakistos_]

The 7 former Magisters are not Ghouls, they are Darkspawn, the first(allegedly) and clearly unique but Darkspawn nonetheless. To say that their power is 'godly' I think is going way too far. They have retained their magical skills learned in ancient Tevinter and are cleary very powerful but nothing I have seen from either Corypheus or the Architech suggest that they are any more powerful than they may have been when they were human or that other powerful Mages, given the same training, couldn't match them spell for spell.

 

It took only 4 individuals, not an army, to kill either of them afterall and the Wardens would have killed Corypheus years ago had it not been for his power over the taint. Their potency comes from a combination of their not super Mage skills, intelligence and their unique and not well understood Darkspawn abilities. Like Archdemons, they may be hard to kill permanently but are in no way invulnerable. This makes them more slippery than godlike.

[Heimdall]

So ghouls are already existing creatures affected by the taint. Darkspawn are beings created with the taint. I do see a difference there in terms of biology. Ghouls are poisoned by the taint, while darkspawn are venomous. Does that reduce the arbitrary line?

I understand the distinction in normal situations, but I think the magisters defy such a line. By the definition you cite, Archie and Cory should be classified as ghouls, but clearly they are something more. I think enforcing that darkspawn/ghoul distinction where the magisters are concerned seems inadequate, as they tend to flout the usual rules.

That's why it doesn't make sense to me that a female magister would be "poisoned" by the taint, while her colleagues were turned into something venomous. As we don't know the proper effects of the taint, I could accept that the woman was turned into something broodmother-like, a darkspawn able to reproduce, but I would still not categorize her as a broodmother, based on the "poisoned" vs. "venomous" distinction.

Maybe, then again I'm wondering if there's a point of mutation where a broodmother becomes a darkspawn in the sense of being "venomous" rather than "poisoned" as you describe.

[littlebrightpanda]

I understand the distinction in normal situations, but I think the magisters defy such a line. By the definition you cite, Archie and Cory should be classified as ghouls, but clearly they are something more. I think enforcing that darkspawn/ghoul distinction where the magisters are concerned seems inadequate, as they tend to flout the usual rules.

Maybe, then again I'm wondering if there's a point of mutation where a broodmother becomes a darkspawn in the sense of being "venomous" rather than "poisoned" as you describe.

 

I would love to be able to do a proper analysis of a magister body, a ghoul and a darkspawn to see the differences, whether these differences exist or not. At least now my argument makes a bit more sense. 

 

Also, I would love to know the powers of the taint, because Cory said they kind of "ingested" willingly. A broodmother ingests the taint unwillingly. Does that make a difference? The taint is magical, so maybe. And then all magisters would not be darkspawn, but enhanced ghouls. Then it really would be interesting to see whether ghouls can be poisoned so much that they turn venomous.

 

I don't know how long the average darkspawn lives. Do they naturally die at some point, because they start poisoning themselves? Is the taint making the immortal? Then there are only going to be more and more darkspawn if you have to manually kill each darkspawn. If ghouls really can turn venomous, than the magisters might not only be immortal based on their powers, but also based on their age. 

[Heimdall]

I would love to be able to do a proper analysis of a magister body, a ghoul and a darkspawn to see the differences, whether these differences exist or not. At least now my argument makes a bit more sense.

Also, I would love to know the powers of the taint, because Cory said they kind of "ingested" willingly. A broodmother ingests the taint unwillingly. Does that make a difference? The taint is magical, so maybe. And then all magisters would not be darkspawn, but enhanced ghouls. Then it really would be interesting to see whether ghouls can be poisoned so much that they turn venomous.

I don't know how long the average darkspawn lives. Do they naturally die at some point, because they start poisoning themselves? Is the taint making the immortal? Then there are only going to be more and more darkspawn if you have to manually kill each darkspawn. If ghouls really can turn venomous, than the magisters might not only be immortal based on their powers, but also based on their age.

I'm pretty sure it's canon that darkspawn don't age. The taint sustains them entirely. They don't need to sleep, eat, and don't age. Whatever happened to the magisters seems to have imparted that part to them. Broodmothers may be mutated to the point where they have that too is my thinking.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No I think Broodmothers do eventually die, they are still technically ghouls.

[MisterJB]

The Wardens need to seriously consider actively hunting down these monsters and killing them.

 

The Architect first tried to infect the whole world with the Blight and then started a Blight.

Corypheus murdered the Divine, opened the Breach and would have destroyed the world if not for the Inquisitor.

 

These creatures are darkspawn and ridiculously dangerous. The Wardens should not just sit around waiting for the next one to surface and kill hundreds of thousands of people.

[Ranadiel Marius]

The Wardens need to seriously consider actively hunting down these monsters and killing them.

The Architect first tried to infect the whole world with the Blight and then started a Blight.
Corypheus murdered the Divine, opened the Breach and would have destroyed the world if not for the Inquisitor.

These creatures are darkspawn and ridiculously dangerous. The Wardens should not just sit around waiting for the next one to surface and kill hundreds of thousands of people.

And how are they supposed to kill them? They have the same body hopping ability as Archdemons, only minus the cannot possess Gray Wardens clause. All hunting them down would do is whittle away their forces. And that is assuming they even have the ability to track down creatures that can freely wander the Deep Roads.

[Reznore57]

The Wardens need to seriously consider actively hunting down these monsters and killing them.

 

 

If they are all like Cory, wardens can't kill them .

There are more dangerous than archdemons , they can bodyjump in wardens and mindcontrol them .

They are probably all half mad , I'm not sure if it's good or bad ,The Architect having some kind of amnesia probably made him less dangerous.

[Heimdall]

If they are all like Cory, they are all impossible to kill as long as there are Wardens barring them doing stupid things like Cory putting a part of his being in a dragon.  Morrigan says his ability has no range limit.

[KotorEffect3]

The Wardens need to seriously consider actively hunting down these monsters and killing them.

 

The Architect first tried to infect the whole world with the Blight and then started a Blight.

Corypheus murdered the Divine, opened the Breach and would have destroyed the world if not for the Inquisitor.

 

These creatures are darkspawn and ridiculously dangerous. The Wardens should not just sit around waiting for the next one to surface and kill hundreds of thousands of people.

The wardens if anything are actually more vulnerable to them.  I agree they need to be hunted down but Corypheus was able to manipulate them and the Architect wanted to use their blood.  I think the wardens should team up with the inquisition and with the legion of the dead to hunt them down.   Templars might come in handy as well

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I guess this could just be simple gameplay mechanics and story segregation but was any explanation ever provided why Anders, Bethany and Carver were able to kill Corypheus in Legacy if he prevented the Wardens from attacking him with his influence over them?

[In Exile]

I guess this could just be simple gameplay mechanics and story segregation but was any explanation ever provided why Anders, Bethany and Carver were able to kill Corypheus in Legacy if he prevented the Wardens from attacking him with his influence over them?

You saw what happened to Anders. And again we don't gave proof a conscious Corypheus can mind control Wardens.

[PCThug]

I guess this could just be simple gameplay mechanics and story segregation but was any explanation ever provided why Anders, Bethany and Carver were able to kill Corypheus in Legacy if he prevented the Wardens from attacking him with his influence over them?

Maybe the presence of Justice protected in Anders in that instance? As for Bethany and Carver...something, something, Hawke blood?

[KotorEffect3]

I guess this could just be simple gameplay mechanics and story segregation but was any explanation ever provided why Anders, Bethany and Carver were able to kill Corypheus in Legacy if he prevented the Wardens from attacking him with his influence over them?

Well Hawke blood had held him granted their's was tainted but still that might have something to do with it.  He did manage to screw with Anders to a degree but Anders was already possessed by vengeance so Anders wasn't exactly a run of the mill warden mage.  And now looking back at it  I think Corypheus lost the fight in legacy deliberatly.  He put up a convincing fight  and allowed Hawke and company to "kill" him so then he could body hop into Larius/Janeka and proceed to do his thing without the rest of Thedas being any the wiser.

[MisterJB]

 

There's Bregan too. He was able to cut off The Architect's hand and was going for the head until Utha stopped him.

The fact that he was not a mage might have helped. They seem to be the most vulnerable.

 

 

 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You saw what happened to Anders. And again we don't gave proof a conscious Corypheus can mind control Wardens.

 

Yes we do. He controlled the Wardens who imprisoned the Divine and the ones who formed his honor guard in the Temple of Mythal. They couldn't have been controlled by the Nightmare because that spell ended once the Nightmare was defeated AND they aren't even mages so they couldn't have even been controlled that way in the first place.

 

 

 

 

There's Bregan too. He was able to cut off The Architect's hand and was going for the head until Utha stopped him.

The fact that he was not a mage might have helped. They seem to be the most vulnerable.

 

 

That sort of brings me back to my earlier points that The Architect's powers seem completely different from Corypheus. If he could control the Wardens how could a party consisting of nothing but Wardens ever defeat him?

[KotorEffect3]

Though wardens and especially warden mages are vulnerable to darkspawn magisters there is one guy that happens to be a warden mage that would be good to have as an advisor (maybe but not take him phsyically when you go hunting).   This might be the only guy that has encountered both the architect and corypheus.   He is also the most controversial and hated ex warden/mage in all of Thedas.  Anders might actually come in handy.

[In Exile]

Yes we do. He controlled the Wardens who imprisoned the Divine and the ones who formed his honor guard in the Temple of Mythal. They couldn't have been controlled by the Nightmare because that spell ended once the Nightmare was defeated AND they aren't even mages so they couldn't have even been controlled that way in the first place.

No, we don't. The Nightmare *never* controlled the Wardens. It was implicated in the false calling. Corypheus used one means to control them: having then summon demons and binding them. The fact that we see him WITH Wardens is not proof of mind control. We have never seen Corypheus use any ability that gave him control of the Wardens. The Wardens he uses at Mythal are expressly referenced as remnants of Adamant.

You cannot continuously advance this theory that Corypheus has inherent mind control powers without a shred of proof in its favour.

We have no idea how Corypheus came to acquire a small cadre of Grey Wardens.

[Heimdall]

I'm of the opinion that they have different power sets. That doesn't mean they can't share some abilities, like body hopping, but the Architect doesn't appear to be able to control others through the taint. That, or he's forgotten how.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No, we don't. The Nightmare *never* controlled the Wardens. It was implicated in the false calling. Corypheus used one means to control them: having then summon demons and binding them. The fact that we see him WITH Wardens is not proof of mind control. We have never seen Corypheus use any ability that gave him control of the Wardens. The Wardens he uses at Mythal are expressly referenced as remnants of Adamant.

You cannot continuously advance this theory that Corypheus has inherent mind control powers without a shred of proof in its favour.

We have no idea how Corypheus came to acquire a small cadre of Grey Wardens.

 

There IS proof. The mind control spell at Adamant ended when the Nightmare was defeated. They can't be controlled that way anymore. Stroud says he believes that Corypheus had taken control of the minds of the Wardens who helped him. There also isn't any other explanation ever put forward. What other reasons could there be for the Wardens knowingly helping Corypheus?

[In Exile]

There IS proof. The mind control spell at Adamant ended when the Nightmare was defeated. They can't be controlled that way anymore. Stroud says he believes that Corypheus had taken control of the minds of the Wardens who helped him. There also isn't any other explanation ever put forward.

There's *no mind control spell*. The nightmare created a false calling. The mages that were controlled were controlled by means of the demon summoning ritual: this is what we see when we first meet Erimond.

Stroud is desperately struggling to find an explanation to excuse the actions of his order. He's offering it as a plea to say that the Grey Wardens didn't just openly conspire with Corypheus for who knows what sort of reason.

Stroud has no proof. He has speculation. He never met those Wardens. He had no idea they existed until the very moment we all saw the memory in the Fade.

There's no evidence for this theory and it is actively contradicted at the margins (the Nightmare did not control minds in the way you said it did).

Edit:

It could just be blood magic. We know it controls minds. That's its key danger.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's *no mind control spell*. The nightmare created a false calling. The mages that were controlled were controlled by means of the demon summoning ritual: this is what we see when we first meet Erimond.

Stroud is desperately struggling to find an explanation to excuse the actions of his order. He's offering it as a plea to say that the Grey Wardens didn't just openly conspire with Corypheus for who knows what sort of reason.

Stroud has no proof. He has speculation. He never met those Wardens. He had no idea they existed until the very moment we all saw the memory in the Fade.

There's no evidence for this theory and it is actively contradicted at the margins (the Nightmare did not control minds in the way you said it did).

Edit:

It could just be blood magic. We know it controls minds. That's its key danger.

 

The demon summoning ritual is a mind control spell. And it ended with the defeat of the Nightmare. There is no reason that Wardens would openly conspire with Corypheus. But we do know that Corypheus has controlled Wardens before.

[Heimdall]

The demon summoning ritual is a mind control spell. And it ended with the defeat of the Nightmare. There is no reason that Wardens would openly conspire with Corypheus. But we do know that Corypheus has controlled Wardens before.

Well, he's able to influence them through the taint, that may or may not translate to full blown mind control.

[In Exile]

The demon summoning ritual is a mind control spell. And it ended with the defeat of the Nightmare. There is no reason that Wardens would openly conspire with Corypheus. But we do know that Corypheus has controlled Wardens before.

The binding ritual is the mind control spell. The game is unclear whether closing the rift breaks it (there is the implication if you save the Wardens that it is broken) but the mechanism of it is very unclear (that is it is unclear if it was broken by other means).

We have - again - zero proof Corypheus mind controls Wardens. We saw a sleeping Corypheus subtly influence the thoughts and desires of GWs. But what we see in DAI goes far beyond that influence. It is a total level of domination that allows for no apparent independent thought.