258 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

What old gods are theoretically still alive?

[Todrazok]

What old gods are theoretically still alive?

 

Presumably Razikale (hence it being interesting), and Lusacan. 

[littlebrightpanda]

My other half is still reading through WoT2. It'll be a while until I get to nab her copy.

 

So the Architect makes One.

 

The Conductor (Corypheus) makes Two.

 

Do we have any reference to the other Magisters?

 

The codex entry "A different darkspawn" mentions a total of 3 (+ Cory who was still in the Warden prison at that point), although they are not specified and there still might be more in the Deep Roads. The Canticle of Silence made a reference, it's somewhere in the thread. But it appears that they had functions that sometimes were related to the old gods they served. 

[Arakiel12409]

The codex entry "A different darkspawn" mentions a total of 3 (+ Cory who was still in the Warden prison at that point), although they are not specified and there still might be more in the Deep Roads. The Canticle of Silence made a reference, it's somewhere in the thread. But it appears that they had functions that sometimes were related to the old gods they served. 

The others (from the Canticle of Silence 1:14) are:

 

* The Forgewright of the Fire (Toth)

* The Watchman of Night (Lusacan)

* The Madman of Chaos (Zazikel)

* THe Appraiser of Slavery (Andoral)

* The Augur of Mystery (Razikale)

 

So there is plenty of opportunity for them to show up. I wonder which of the remaining five got eaten.

[wtfman99]

There was some highly intelligent darkspawn who could think and were serious threats in blights that were killed. Referencing "Last Flight" here. Maybe they could have been magisters?

 

I've asked this before but does anyone *really* think Dumat is gone? I just get the sense with how bad he seemed etc he's going to make some kind of appearance.

[Kantr]

There was some highly intelligent darkspawn who could think and were serious threats in blights that were killed. Referencing "Last Flight" here. Maybe they could have been magisters?

 

I've asked this before but does anyone *really* think Dumat is gone? I just get the sense with how bad he seemed etc he's going to make some kind of appearance.

The soul was destroyed.

 

The Emissaries and Alpha's are intelligent but they still heed the call unlike the magisters.

[In Exile]

There was some highly intelligent darkspawn who could think and were serious threats in blights that were killed. Referencing "Last Flight" here. Maybe they could have been magisters?

I've asked this before but does anyone *really* think Dumat is gone? I just get the sense with how bad he seemed etc he's going to make some kind of appearance.

They could be awakened. We don't actually have proof that the Architect hasn't been active beforehand, his memory loss aside.

[Ahriman]

The others (from the Canticle of Silence 1:14) are:

 

* The Forgewright of the Fire (Toth)

* The Watchman of Night (Lusacan)

* The Madman of Chaos (Zazikel)

* THe Appraiser of Slavery (Andoral)

* The Augur of Mystery (Razikale)

 

So there is plenty of opportunity for them to show up. I wonder which of the remaining five got eaten.

Implying they can't reborn like Cory, if it's the case even Architect can be alive.

 

There was some highly intelligent darkspawn who could think and were serious threats in blights that were killed. Referencing "Last Flight" here. Maybe they could have been magisters?

 

I've asked this before but does anyone *really* think Dumat is gone? I just get the sense with how bad he seemed etc he's going to make some kind of appearance.

Wiki says his altars are still somewhat active. I do remember something like this, but I can't remember where it was.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Altar of Dumat in Legacy appeared to work because of demons. And Corypheus says repeatedly he cannot hear Dumat like he could before.

[In Exile]

The Altar of Dumat in Legacy appeared to work because of demons. And Corypheus says repeatedly he cannot hear Dumat like he could before.

 

That one is weird, because apparently the OGs being silent is what triggered the loss of faith that Corypheus et al. were combating as I recall. 

[Statare]

That one is weird, because apparently the OGs being silent is what triggered the loss of faith that Corypheus et al. were combating as I recall. 

 

According to Note: Claws of Dumat, what drove Cory and crew to their ritual was the loss of popularity of the Cult of the Old Gods, but that Cory was still "listening to the voices in his dreams."

 

I have not read it, but I remember people posting from the Tevinter Chant verses in WOT2 and it said the Old Gods guided their priests in the ritual. Though that is potentially biased.

 

So. The crisis of faith was Empire-wide, and it is unclear what caused it. And even after meeting Cory in two games, we still do not know the particulars of his relationship with Dumat. How did they speak? What was it like? Was he actually speaking to Dumat or a representative of Dumat? Did Tevinter lose faith after the Old Gods became less involved in their lives or for other reasons? 

[myahele]

I wonder what made the old gods stop speaking? Perhaps they all woke up, but were still stuck in their prisons

[Ahriman]

I wonder what made the old gods stop speaking? Perhaps they all woke up, but were still stuck in their prisons

I doubt they ever were imprisoned, since who would imprison them? Maker? But he didn't do anything since forever.

I assume Old Gods could only speak to a few priests, if it was going for centuries (we don't know exact date of their hibernation or do we?) people could start thinking that Old Gods are just tales.

As for complete silence I guess Cory meant time after First Blight when Dumat was apparently killed.

[littlebrightpanda]

According to Note: Claws of Dumat, what drove Cory and crew to their ritual was the loss of popularity of the Cult of the Old Gods, but that Cory was still "listening to the voices in his dreams."

 

I have not read it, but I remember people posting from the Tevinter Chant verses in WOT2 and it said the Old Gods guided their priests in the ritual. Though that is potentially biased.

 

So. The crisis of faith was Empire-wide, and it is unclear what caused it. And even after meeting Cory in two games, we still do not know the particulars of his relationship with Dumat. How did they speak? What was it like? Was he actually speaking to Dumat or a representative of Dumat? Did Tevinter lose faith after the Old Gods became less involved in their lives or for other reasons? 

 

I think the speaking part is more related to Dumat speaking to him in their dreams. It's somewhere in the wiki, on the Old God page, that the Tevinter magisters were contacted through their dreams. The first time the Old Gods did it was when they taught the people magic, which is why they got sealed away. Then they did it again, which is when they taught a dreamer blood magic, who then formed the cult of the Old Gods. Whether there was further communication or whether is was always fuzzy dreams, who knows?

 

So it's some sort of dreamer quality, and we don't know that much about dreamers to really say how the communication worked. Feynriel had actual visions in the fade, so maybe it's something like that? 

 

It's interesting to speculate why the faith of the Old Gods lost importance. Maybe it's was too taxing on the population? Maybe it wasn't appropriate to the society anymore and the people looked for something else? 

[littlebrightpanda]

We know that dreamers were present during the times of the Ancient Elves and that dreamers were still about during the rise of the Tevinter Empire. Do we know how the dreamer-normal mages-population was distributed right before the Golden-City-Incident? 

 

IF the Ancient Magisters were the high priests of their respective Old God, and therefore the heads of their cult, couldn't it had been that they were dreamers as well and that's why they were so powerful? And that's why they could actually listen to the Old Gods? 

 

I remember Dorian calling something "ancient dreamers" in a conversation about the Ancient Magisters, but I don't know whether he was actually calling them dreamers. 

[Statare]

We know that dreamers were present during the times of the Ancient Elves and that dreamers were still about during the rise of the Tevinter Empire. Do we know how the dreamer-normal mages-population was distributed right before the Golden-City-Incident? 

 

IF the Ancient Magisters were the high priests of their respective Old God, and therefore the heads of their cult, couldn't it had been that they were dreamers as well and that's why they were so powerful? And that's why they could actually listen to the Old Gods? 

 

I remember Dorian calling something "ancient dreamers" in a conversation about the Ancient Magisters, but I don't know whether he was actually calling them dreamers. 

 

What a Dreamer was for the Elves and Tevinter seems different. The Elves incorporated their Dreamer-hood into the ritual of Uthenera, implying that all Elves were hypothetically Dreamers, but they seem to have created class obstacles to become a full-fledged, Uthenera achieving Elf. 

 

The Tevinter mages never managed to reach a point where they sustained their immortal bodies off Fade energy. We don't even know how rare that was in Elven times. But we do know Dreamers were more common in Tevinter society prior Andraste's march and the formation of the Chantry, becoming increasingly rarer until two Ages ago when the "last dreamer" existed. Though we know that to be untrue as Feynriel is/was a Dreamer, Solas is a Dreamer, Felassan was a Dreamer, and Aurelius Titus was a Dreamer. All in the Dragon Age. The list of known Dreamer mages we have is actually dominated by Dragon Age dreamers, so it is hard to guess how many there were, but it was probably rare enough to give a select few power over the rest of the mages in Tevinter society.

 

We know the Magisters were Blood Mages. It is unclear if they were Dreamers, but from what we know about Blood Magic from Solas, being a Blood Mage seems to make it harder for you to enter the Fade at will, hindering your ability to be a Dreamer. Yet, as their role of Priests, they probably did enter the Fade a lot to talk to the Gods / or to divine things or what have you.

 

This seems to be the overall issue for Tevinter. Blood Magic makes it difficult to enter the Fade, but Blood Magic can be used as a tool to give one power over the Fade. It is probable that being a Dreamer required skills, genetics, and years of training, while Blood Magic presented an "easy track" to power that was hard to resist in a competitive Mageocracy.

 

Dorian says that his family can trace their ancestry to the first Dreamers, probably around the time of Darinius (the First Leader and First Dreamer of Tevinter Society). It seems that is a claim all upper class of Tevinter Society claim, and at one time they proudly claimed ancestry with the Magisters who entered the Black City, further implying the Magisters were maybe Dreamers. Thalsian, the first priest of Dumat and possibly first Blood Mage learned of Blood Magic from Dumat, presumably in the Fade, making it possible he was a rudimentary Dreamer until he became a Blood Mage.

 

But if I had to guess, I'd say that for whatever reasons Dreamerhood powers became harder or rarer for the Tevinter Imperium to achieve, and the overall popularity of Blood Magic in Tevinter prior to the First Blight and Andraste's March made the talent progressively rarer after the First Dreamers. I'd also wager that is why the Old Gods became less present in Tevinter life, as less Dreamers conversed with them in the Fade and more Blood mages distanced themselves from the subtleties of the Fade in favor of power.

 

Really, the whole Dreamer thing has been confusing as we went from Feynriel the superhero able to kill across vast distances to Solas who falls asleep in ruins and can sort of guess what happened there. Granted Solas was hiding things.

[myahele]

Nice analysis from Reddit @BardSoHard

 

Gaider's words nearly confirm but I know the fandom still has some reservations because he didn't really come right out and tell us 'Yes, he is.' It was that typical non-fullconfirmation yet positive answer 'he's like him' or something, they give with a lot of game spoilers, etc.

IMO the Architect is the onetime high priest of Urthemiel, old god of beauty. He's lost his mind with the years/ritual/whatnot and began identifying as a darkspawn rather than magister anymore.' That's my just interpretation, with the 'evidence' I've seen btw.

The Calling: Duncan has a entire para talking about how Architect is very priest like (they weren't only magisters, they were the high priests of the temples to Old Gods. The Imperium basically was having a religious crisis)http://dragonage.wik..._Claws_of_Dumat

The Architect's next plan after the Calling is to save an old god from the taint by giving it Grey Warden blood. See, he was given locations of all the old gods from a Warden, apparently. Why does he go for Urthemiel first, hm? Gee sounds like something a high priest might do in the back of his mind; he has a chance to kill sleeping old god or try saving it. What a good high priest you are, Architect. Oops, too bad it backfires.

The Mother's lair where Architect hung out in presumably before (the Ancient Tevinter area that is a special place where dragons go to die) has robes to Urthemiel (our recent Archdemon Architect wakey waked) stashed in a container

He has 2 pet guard dragons. Tevinters used to really love dragons. Dragons. Tevinters. His name. He remembers his old title in the Ritual.

 

The Architect calls his followers disciples and says he's not wishing to rule but free. It's like a religious calling/cult/movement but without the religion. He is very kind and gentle with his followers (unless they prove too much trouble like the Mother); his followers mark themselves with his mark - the mask. He has a flock, it's like he's unconsciously forming a temple again.

The Architect has old Tevinter invention stuff and knows how to use it in his lab.

He has ancient statues in his room. The middle statue looks like a figure in the Mosaic the Invasion (which depicts the high priests going to the Fade)compare to  The Architect is likely in two mosaics judging from character designs, The Invasion and the Fall; ancient tevinter sculptors would have known the symbols of the old god temples and what their high priests wore for vestments.

The Architect's concept art, first slide after you beat Awakening that can easily be interpreted as a pre-blight high priest: And the symbol of Urthemiel, compare that to the concept art headdress

The fact the Architect is obsessed with symmetry and creating things. He calls the mother 'A Creation'. Urthemiel's realm is not only beauty but art, compositions, plays, and drama...who is the most artfully dramatic ancient darkspawn we've met? Corypheus? Nah...

Architect could be any of these guys, especially the polite one who was offering tea (the Architect's also spoken to mages in the Fade! - it's in the Calling)http://dragonage.wik...ent_Darkspawn%3

[andy6915]

The Architect's concept art, first slide after you beat Awakening that can easily be interpreted as a pre-blight high priest:

 

 

Um... DAA has the exact same credits as DAO, and share the exact same backgrounds and "slides". I don't think that is the Architect at all.

[Robert Trevelyan]

The Canticle gives us the titles of all the ancient high priests. 

 

Conductor of the Choir of Silence (Corypheus, High Priest of Dumat)

Architect of the Works of Beauty (The Architect, High Priest of Urthemiel)

Watchman of the Night (High Priest of Lusacan)

Forgewright of Fire (High Priest of Toth)

Appraiser of Slavery (High Priest of Andoral)

Augur of Mystery (High Priest of Razikale)

Madman of Chaos (High Priest of Zazikiel)

 

Augur of Mystery in particular comes off as interesting to me, as the Jaws of Hakkon DLC had codexes about Razikale, and "Augur" is a title still used by the Avvar aswell. 

 

 

Damn. Yes, they do. Good call.

[X Equestris]

I doubt they ever were imprisoned, since who would imprison them? Maker? But he didn't do anything since forever.
I assume Old Gods could only speak to a few priests, if it was going for centuries (we don't know exact date of their hibernation or do we?) people could start thinking that Old Gods are just tales.
As for complete silence I guess Cory meant time after First Blight when Dumat was apparently killed.

The dwarves have found one of the prisons, though. IF we go with the "Old Gods are somehow related to the two groups of Elven gods" theory, they could have been imprisoned during the war we know occurred.

[Urzon]

The dwarves have found one of the prisons, though. IF we go with the "Old Gods are somehow related to the two groups of Elven gods" theory, they could have been imprisoned during the war we know occurred.

I found it kinda interesting that the feeling the bindings gave off in the prison freaked/creeped out the dwarves more than the actual prison or the fact that an Old God/Archdemon was imprisoned there.

[Lethaya]

Um... DAA has the exact same credits as DAO, and share the exact same backgrounds and "slides". I don't think that is the Architect at all.

 

Yeah, isn't that meant to be Celene...? Since she was originally gonna show up in DA:O (at least, so I've heard), I would think she'd have some concept art. Hence the mask the figure is wearing - also, that staff shows up in her DA:I concept art as well.

[Iakus]

Implying they can't reborn like Cory, if it's the case even Architect can be alive.

 

Well, some people do want the Warden to return...

[Don Re]

I think Cory is not death, just send back to the fade

[X Equestris]

I think Cory is not death, just send back to the fade

He got turned inside out by a rift, and was sent into the Fade without his body hopping powers. If he's not dead, he might as well be.