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[Dai Grepher]

Post any mistakes you find in WoT2.

 

In reply to another thread I am going to post the mistakes I found with Eleanor Cousland's new "backstory" and then post some proof of my own personal explanation for a male human noble being 30 in DA:O.

 

I can't copy/paste, so I have to type it all out.

 

My objective: Prove Eleanor's new backstory contradicts canon. Backstory found here:

 

http://dragonage.wik...land#Background

 

Contradicts Battle of Denerim, history of Highever and Amaranthine, Bryce and William's backstories.

 

Also prove male human noble can be 30 in Origins.

 

First some set up based on Eleanor's new backstory:

 

8:24 Orlesian Invasion of Ferelden - ordered

 

- Teyrn Ardal Cousland slain defending King Vanedrin in Lothering

 

-- Assume William is 1 year old for youngest possible age of death in 9:02.

 

(Near 70 year absence of Couslands from Highever stated)

 

8:33 Cousland family leaves Highever (69 year absence)

 

-- William is 10 years old.

 

8:36 Cousland family leaves Highever (66 year absence)

 

-- William is 13 years old.

 

8:44 Orlesian  occupation of Denerim complete

 

-- William is 21 years old.

 

9:02 Ferelden rebellion successful, retakes Denerim, alleged battle in harbor.

 

- Nearly 70 year absence (66 to 69 year absence) from Highever in 9:02.

 

--William dies at 78. He does not return to Highever between 8:33/8:36 and 9:02.

 

9:03 Bryce and Eleanor engaged

 

- Assume they married, and then conceived Fergus in the same year.

 

- Fergus born in 9:04 most likely (for oldest possible age). Result: Fergus is 26 in 9:30.

 

- Male human noble is this 25 at the oldest in 9:30, but likely years younger.

 

 

Plot holes:

 

William's study. The male human noble tells Dairren that the collection in the study (and implies that the study itself) belonged to his grandfather. For that to be true, William would have had to occupy and have sole control over it. For this he would need to be older than a mere 13 (assuming "nearly 70" means 66; if 69 then William was 10). Otherwise it would be Ardal's study and his collection. Dairren can point out that William was something of a scholar and had an interest in magic. So obviously he would need to be somewhat older and have enough time to gather such a collection and study it in-depth enough to be considered a scholar.

 

"So what?", you may be asking. Just increase William's age, right?  Well in that case you increase the age at which he died as well, and at the youngest possible age he would still have died at 78. But now ask yourself if a man in his 70s really could have led troops. I don't mean bark orders like the 90-year-old Tarlton Howe did, I mean actually get out in the field and slog around in the wilderness dodging Chevaliers. Doable you say? Okay, but remember that's just the youngest possible age. Now add 10 years to that so William can be considered something of a scholar (20 to 23 years old). Now you've got an 80-year-old leading troops. That's just impossible. And also remember that Eleanor's new backstory does not have William ever returning to Highever except in a pine box. So it isn't like her new backstory has him returning to Highever in his old age and then settling into his study to live out his days reading. It all had to be done before he left Highever in his youth, according to the new backstory.

 

William's age. For Bryce to be young enough for marriage in 9:03, William is too old. He would have needed to have conceived Bryce in his old age. It's a little complicated here, but stick with me. Figure Bryce was "young" when he commanded troops (as the new backstory states), and figure he was about 20 (low estimate) in 9:03 when he proposed to Eleanor. Okay, for that William would have had to be a military leader at 58 and also find some woman to have his only child. And again, this is using his youngest possible age of 78. If we're using "scholar" William, then he would be 68 when he conceived Bryce. For William I wrote Bryce was 20 just to give William a better shot at being young enough to impregnate a woman, but now let's give Bryce some help at matching up with Origins.

 

Bryce's age. Now, the new backstory states that Bryce was young when he commanded troops in 9:02 in this alleged Battle of Denerim Harbor. So figure 25. Now fast-forward to Origins. He's only 53 in Origins? Really? All that grey hair at 53? I don't think so. And this is a generous estimate. Take him down to 18 and he ends up at 46. Or if he's anything like Eleanor, he was commanding at 15! In which case he's 43 in Origins. But of course that would start to conflict with Fergus' birth year wouldn't it?

 

Bryce's location. Remember, Bryce was fighting along side Howe and Bryland, and they had over them a teyrn in William, and an arl in Byron. Why would any of them answer the call of a mere bann, especially when this bann was part of the navel branch and Bryce was a land combatant? You can't just go from fighting on land to fighting on ships. These two things are WORLDS apart. Aside from having to deal with footing that changes angle constantly (thus requiring superb balance), you also have to deal with foot placement and timing. And if you mess up, it's straight into the drink.

 

Harper's Ford: Arl Tarlton Howe was defeated after several battles with the Couslands (plural) and then hanged. Byron assumed his brother's title of arl. This proves the Highever troops were being led by someone, most likely William (who was not a teen). In which case he was Teyrn and never lost the title or the holdings, thus passing it to Bryce, who did not need to win support over the course of 4 months. Also, the Couslands would have occupied Highever later in the Blessed Age than what is stated in Eleanor's new backstory. Perhaps they did not lose the teyrnir at all.

 

Amaranthine: Arl Byron Howe died distracting the Orlesians in the west in 8:99. Thus there was no Arl of Amaranthine in 9:03 as Eleanor's new backstory states. Besides, the Arl of Amaranthine is a vassal of the Teyrn of Highever anyway, so of course nobles would swear fealty to the Teyrn, that's what they're supposed to do. Bryce would have had no trouble claiming the title of teyrn.

 

Denerim: Florian abandoned Megrahn after the Battle of River Dane in 8:99, seeing Ferelden as too expensive and uncivil to be ruled over. There were no Orlesian ships sent to take Denerim back as Eleanor's new backstory states. Even if Florian had not written Ferelden off as a lost cause, he would have sent the reinforcements before Denerim was retaken by the rebels, not afterward.

 

Combat: The new backstory states Eleanor was destroying ships. No. Just no. In this setting all the raiders would do is board ships, kill or capture the crews, and then commandeer the ship. Rarely would they ever want to set one ablaze, and that's the only way they would have destroyed them. Remember that cannons don't exist except in Qunari ranks. The humans either have mage fireballs or trebuchets, the first of which were not available and the second of which can't be transported on ships.

 

So what's my basis for claiming the male human noble can be 30?

 

1. Appearance of each Cousland. Bryce and Eleanor? Old. 60s. Late 50s at least. Fergus? He looks 35. Figure the younger brother would be about 5 years younger in order to make Fergus talk down to him in a joking way. The closer their ages are the less likely talking down will have any kind of effect. Meaning, they are not peers. The older can still consider the younger a kid by comparison. That's why the barb makes sense. Yet the younger can still counter any digs against him with witty comebacks as well. Also, the younger is thought to be more capable than Fergus, which means their ages are not that far apart. They both have a similar level of fighting and commanding experience. For example, the younger COusland was confirmed to have participated in a tournament not long before Origins.

 

2. Historical placement. For the male human noble to be 30 in Origins he would have to be born in 8:99, which means likely conceived in 8:98. This year is prime as it falls before the battle of River Dane in 8:99, the turning point in the war. This was the main "all or nothing" battle. Also the Battle of White River is thrown in there somewhere. No date is given for that, but I think Bruce's miraculous survival from that defeat would give him a newfound appreciation for life, and nearly losing Bryce would give Eleanor incentive to be intimate with Bryce upon finding out that he survived. And don't tell me they wouldn't have the inclination or the opportunity because there was a war going on, because General Loghain somehow found the time to impregnate Celia in 8:99 (the same year as the Battle of River Dane) which then resulted in Anora being born in 8:100. And yes, it's 8:100, not 9:00. But that's for another topic. The point is, if Loghain found the time, and he was actually one of the main targets of the Orlesians, then Bryce and Eleanor certainly could have found time as well.

 

3. The math works out. I'll prove it by holding my male human noble's age up to the above points against Eleanor's new backstory.

 

From the top, using only the canon (not Eleanor's new backstory mind you). Ardal died in Lothering in 8:24. So he obviously had already conceived William. And then William conceived Bryce. So right off the bat we know for a fact that making Bryce older actually gives William a better chance of being older than 0 in 8:24. Now, is it possible that Ardal impregnated his wife and then ran off to Lothering to die for his king two weeks later? Sure. But let's assume William was, I don't know, 4 years old in 8:24 to keep it simple. Now let's set Bryce's age at 60 in Origins.

 

So William was born in 8:20 and Bryce was born in 8:70. That means William was 50 when he conceived Bryce. Well within the realm of possibility. That leaves him with 20 more years of being the leader of his men before he hits 70 and then like Danny Glover in Lethal Weapon starts gettin' too old for Varric's favorite word. At that time Bryce can take over command (though not necessarily as teyrn himself). The year is 8:90. That leaves another 10 years for Bryce to prove himself in the war. Meanwhile, William resides in Highever and remains in his study except to issue orders to the castle guards and direct troop movements to defend Highever only. He is now 80 in 8:100. Bryce is the one out in the wilderness. William is never displaced from Highever, and thus is free to amass his collection of literature. Give goold ol' William another give years to bounce his grandchildren on his knee and then x_x. Dead at the ripe old age of 85.

 

Meanwhile, Bryce will have conceived Fergus at age 23, and "pup" at age 28, putting each of them at ages 35 and 30 respectively in 9:30.

 

And as for you naysayers who would ask, "what straight white man wouldn't be married at age 30", well I would point out... either a playboy who only cares to have sex with women, or a fine upstanding man of honor and virtue who is saving himself for the right woman. With a noble, either explanation will work. Depends on your male human noble.

 

Personally, mine was waiting for the right woman. That seemed to be the case with Nathaniel Howe as well, and supposedly someone official confirmed that Nathaniel was born either in 8:100 or 9:1. Plus, with nobles it's usually about joining two strong family lines together. Yeah, not a big deal with the Couslands, but still, doesn't mean your male human noble can't favor that practice for himself.

[Dai Grepher]

References:

 

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blessed_Age

 

http://dragonage.wik..._Southron_Hills

 

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Meghren

 

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Byron_Howe

[X Equestris]

Alrighty, issues that I see right off the bat:

What 70 year old man leads troops in battle, you ask? Well, the Grandmaster of the Knights of Malta, Jean Parisot de Valette, led the Order against the Turks when they tried to take Malta. So it has happened.

How do you destroy ships? Ballistae with flaming bolts, flaming arrows shot by archers, fire pots lobbed over, projectiles launched from mangonels or onagers, and the classic: ramming.

The key issue you ignore with marriage is that you don't choose who you marry as a nobleman, your parents do that for you. If they want you to marry, it's most likely going to happen.

[andy6915]

Sounds to me like you got mad about your head-canon getting flattened caused you to get mad and start trying to find anything you could find to try and hold onto your head-canon as more correct than actual-canon. Kinda like young Earth creationists getting mad that the world is proven to be much older than 6000 years old like they think it is causing them to try to find or make up any bad evidence they can to try to tear down the science that disproves what they want to be true.

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah, and did he actually fight or did he just issue commands from the comfort of some war room somewhere? Did he move around on horseback and brave the elements? Did he dodge enemy fire or command on the front lines? Those are the kinds of things a teyrn does. Kind of like how we see happen in Dragon Age: Origins with King Cailan at Ostagar or the Teyrn Cousland in Denerim.

 

Also, don't forget that early 70s would only be if Ardal conceived William and then died soon after. Meaning, that would be William's youngest possible age. If you account for him needing to be old enough to claim the Highever study then he would need to be in his 80s for battle.

 

All those things can be doused. And I already accounted for that in the post, so I'm not sure why you brought it up. As for ramming, that can do just as much damage to your own ship. We're talking Ferelden boats here, not Qunari dreadnaughts.

 

But Bryce and Eleanor are content to let the male human noble find his own way. So what's your point? They aren't forcing the noble to marry. That means the noble doesn't have to if he doesn't want to or if he waiting for the right woman.

[Dai Grepher]

Sounds to me like you got mad about your head-canon getting flattened caused you to get mad and start trying to find anything you could find to try and hold onto your head-canon as more correct than actual-canon. Kinda like young Earth creationists getting mad that the world is proven to be much older than 6000 years old like they think it is causing them to try to find or make up any bad evidence they can to try to tear down the science that disproves what they want to be true.

 

That's nice of you to post your opinion of my motives. Would you like to try to refute any of the facts I posted now? No? Awwww.
 

[Sylriel]

@OP, Dai Grepher:

 

The problem I see here is that you are trying very hard to make sense out of something that the developers and writers themselves have gone out of their way to mess up in the first place.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I agree with you in that stuff don't add up in the whole story of Dragon Age.  The whole Dragon Age universe is riddled with so much plot holes, retcons, discontinuity, contradicting informations, etc. that it's disgusting to someone like me who likes a coherent story.

 

Just a few examples:

• The BIG secret is not:  The Gray Wardens are an order whose most important ceremony is held as a solemn secret to the rest of the world, so much so that Duncan is willing to kill a recruit who changes his mind.  And yet... at the Landsmeet, Anora and the rest talk about it like its all common knowledge.  Wait, they made a big fuss of it being a huge secret in the beginning.  What happened?
• Ancient Warrior art:  The Arcane Warrior Art is supposed to be an ancient art that died with the ancient elves.  The mage warden stumbles upon a phylactery containing the soul of an ancient elf who was willing to impart his knowledge of this ancient art.  And yet, we encounter more Arcane Warriors in DA:O, and they are human, not elves!  And of course the devs decide to get more stupid and add more Arcane Warriors later on.  So.. this lost, ancient, elven art is really very common, and very modern, and not really elvish after all.
• Becoming Templar:  So you have to be trained to be a templar.  I get that.  Let's forget about the fact that you have to ingest lyrium to have the power since the developers have conveniently decided to forget about that even though they made a big deal of it, even making a character wasted from lyrium use in Origins and another in DA2 Kirkwall.  So, who teaches Hawke how to be a templar?  Who teaches the other specializations to Hawke for that matter?  I like that in origins you have means of getting those specializations, but the devs once again decide to forego that for stupidity.
• We can't forget about the biggest "f u c k you!" from the devs and writers in the form Leliana:  It doesn't matter what choices you make in YOUR game, the devs will ignore them in place of what they want to do.  The retcon and the bullshit story Leliana tells the character in DA2 and DAI are just plain laughable and a big slap across your face with their proverbial big dick.  Seriously?  I saw Leliana's head go rolling off her shoulders and the Maker saw fit to bring her back... right.
• How about something closer to your points:  In the toolset, the devs' own creation tool, Bryce and Eleanor are 40 years of age.  Fergus is 30 years of age.  And the warden is 20 years of age.  So go figure.  What are they trying to tell us?  Bryce has been getting it on with Eleanor when they were 9? and Eleanor gave birth to Fergus at the age of 10?  Really?

 

As you can see, there is a complete disconnect between reality and good sense and the developers and writers.  Don't try to make sense of it.  You'll just go mad.  I've given up on the so called story and the books a long time ago and just make it up in my head as I go.

[Dai Grepher]

Not at all. The original version made enough sense. I'm pointing out that the new version contradicts the established lore. If you want to think of these inconsistences as anything think of them as more pieces for the pile.

 

Hopefully BioWare will retract the story, as they have done with some other errors written in WoT Vol 1. If not, then let this stand as ground for dismissing WoT Vol 2 as non-canon.

 

It's cool that you like stories that make sense. I feel the same.

 

About the toolset though, I'm sure that info was just beta phase data they loaded in as a placeholder and just never bothered to change any of it.

[andy6915]

@OP, Dai Grepher:

 

The problem I see here is that you are trying very hard to make sense out of something that the developers and writers themselves have gone out of their way to mess up in the first place.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I agree with you in that stuff don't add up in the whole story of Dragon Age.  The whole Dragon Age universe is riddled with so much plot holes, retcons, discontinuity, contradicting informations, etc. that it's disgusting to someone like me who likes a coherent story.

 

Just a few examples:

• The BIG secret is not:  The Gray Wardens are an order whose most important ceremony is held as a solemn secret to the rest of the world, so much so that Duncan is willing to kill a recruit who changes his mind.  And yet... at the Landsmeet, Anora and the rest talk about it like its all common knowledge.  Wait, they made a big fuss of it being a huge secret in the beginning.  What happened?
• Ancient Warrior art:  The Arcane Warrior Art is supposed to be an ancient art that died with the ancient elves.  The mage warden stumbles upon a phylactery containing the soul of an ancient elf who was willing to impart his knowledge of this ancient art.  And yet, we encounter more Arcane Warriors in DA:O, and they are human, not elves!  And of course the devs decide to get more stupid and add more Arcane Warriors later on.  So.. this lost, ancient, elven art is really very common, and very modern, and not really elvish after all.
• Becoming Templar:  So you have to be trained to be a templar.  I get that.  Let's forget about the fact that you have to ingest lyrium to have the power since the developers have conveniently decided to forget about that even though they made a big deal of it, even making a character wasted from lyrium use in Origins and another in DA2 Kirkwall.  So, who teaches Hawke how to be a templar?  Who teaches the other specializations to Hawke for that matter?  I like that in origins you have means of getting those specializations, but the devs once again decide to forego that for stupidity.
• We can't forget about the biggest "f u c k you!" from the devs and writers in the form Leliana:  It doesn't matter what choices you make in YOUR game, the devs will ignore them in place of what they want to do.  The retcon and the bullshit story Leliana tells the character in DA2 and DAI are just plain laughable and a big slap across your face with their proverbial big dick.  Seriously?  I saw Leliana's head go rolling off her shoulders and the Maker saw fit to bring her back... right.
• How about something closer to your points:  In the toolset, the devs' own creation tool, Bryce and Eleanor are 40 years of age.  Fergus is 30 years of age.  And the warden is 20 years of age.  So go figure.  What are they trying to tell us?  Bryce has been getting it on with Eleanor when they were 9? and Eleanor gave birth to Fergus at the age of 10?  Really?

 

First bullet point: Anora knows it's often fatal, not specifics. It's not hard for a noble as high up the ladder as her to know that many who join the order often die during the joining. She could just assume it's a combat related joining... Which is kinda was for our warden. Not only did we have the true joining, we also has a very difficult combat related test in the wilds that had us going through literally 50+ darkspawn (I've counted the Darkspawn killed number before and after the wilds). And Maric knew of the joining, and could have written it down in highly secret reports or journals that Anora has read. This is not a plothole.

 

second: OUR Warden didn't know of it, that doesn't mean a damn thing. Many circles have knowledge others don't, just because our circle trained apprentice knew nothing of it doesn't mean anything. Our Warden also didn't know how to put up barriers like mages in DAI can, our Warden didn't know how to manipulate gravity like Bethany and Hawke can. This is not a plothole.

 

third: Nothing about ingesting lyrium was stated. Yeah our character isn't shown to be eating lyrium on-screen, they also aren't shown to take sh!ts in the woods on-screen. And who teaches? Read the damn description.

 

"The strong arm of the Chantry, templars serve as guardians of the Circles of Magi, hunters of apostates and maleficarum, and rarely, as a standing army at the command of the Divine. Through ingestion of carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including the ability to interrupt spells. Though the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, those with the right connections can acquire enough to emulate the abilities of these vigilant warriors."

 

A bit of a handwave, but not a plothole.

 

forth: She died next to an entire urn of ashes so powerful that they can cure a poison that no other thing in Thedas could cure. It's seriously not hard to imagine it curing something as minor as losing your head. But I'll admit, this one is sketchy.

 

fifth: The toolsets are not canon, and the writers themselves have confirmed it.

 

Ahhhh... that's info for the VO people. It's an apparent age and gives a range for the actor, not his actual age.

Whew! Scared me for a moment there.

 

http://forum.bioware...ts/#entry461603

 

 

 

 

Care to try again with some real plotholes?

[X Equestris]

Yeah, and did he actually fight or did he just issue commands from the comfort of some war room somewhere? Did he move around on horseback and brave the elements? Did he dodge enemy fire or command on the front lines? Those are the kinds of things a teyrn does. Kind of like how we see happen in Dragon Age: Origins with King Cailan at Ostagar or the Teyrn Cousland in Denerim.
 
Also, don't forget that early 70s would only be if Ardal conceived William and then died soon after. Meaning, that would be William's youngest possible age. If you account for him needing to be old enough to claim the Highever study then he would need to be in his 80s for battle.
 
All those things can be doused. And I already accounted for that in the post, so I'm not sure why you brought it up. As for ramming, that can do just as much damage to your own ship. We're talking Ferelden boats here, not Qunari dreadnaughts.
 
But Bryce and Eleanor are content to let the male human noble find his own way. So what's your point? They aren't forcing the noble to marry. That means the noble doesn't have to if he doesn't want to or if he waiting for the right woman.

Yes, Grandmaster de Valette fought from the front. I figured that much was implied.

Further, catapult shots and burning arrows are mentioned in the text. As for ramming, it doesn't damage your ship if it has a dedicated ram. We don't know the exact construction of the privateers in question

I will grant you that the timing of the account is questionable. Though it's also possible that this is intended to overwrite older canon.

Now for some further flaws with your reasoning:

Ages for Bryce and Eleanor: You assume their age based on hair color, whigh is a terribly unreliable indicator. I've seen folks in their 60s without a gray or white hair on their head, and I've seen people in their 40s who are entirely gray.

Swearing allegiance to the Teyrn: you clearly misunderstood this part. It doesn't say that the nobles chose to swear fealty to him, it says that the freeholders, commoners who own land, swore fealty to him. Remember that Fereldan freeholders can choose which noble they owe allegiance to.

Also, the Arl in Amaranthine at this point would be Rendon.

About Harper's Ford: Your reasoning here doesn't make any sense. Why would the Cousland's victory here mean they took back Highever earlier or never lost it? Arl Byron Howe, for example, maintains men under arms and claims his title even after he has joined the rebels and been stripped of his holdings by the usurper. William being Teyrn and beating Tarlton Howe's forces doesn't mean that the Orlesians don't have a puppet sitting in Highever, claiming to be Teyrn.

[Dai Grepher]

@Andy You realized you didn't actually reply to my post, right?

 

Come on, don't go after his list. He was just making a simple point that the writers often go back on something they were stressing at some earlier point. There's no need to explain away the situations he referenced. Noooooo neeeeeeed.

[Aimi]

Also, don't forget that early 70s would only be if Ardal conceived William and then died soon after. Meaning, that would be William's youngest possible age. If you account for him needing to be old enough to claim the Highever study then he would need to be in his 80s for battle.

Antigonos Monophthalmos died in battle at Ipsos in 301 BC at the age of 81.

Seleukos I fought at Koroupedion in 281 BC when he was in his late seventies (date of birth is unreliable). His opponent, Lysimachos, was also in his late seventies or early eighties, and was killed in the battle.

[andy6915]

check next message, too many edits

[Dai Grepher]

Yes, Grandmaster de Valette fought from the front. I figured that much was implied.

Further, catapult shots and burning arrows are mentioned in the text. As for ramming, it doesn't damage your ship if it has a dedicated ram. We don't know the exact construction of the privateers in question

I will grant you that the timing of the account is questionable. Though it's also possible that this is intended to overwrite older canon.

Now for some further flaws with your reasoning:

Ages for Bryce and Eleanor: You assume their age based on hair color, whigh is a terribly unreliable indicator. I've seen folks in their 60s without a gray or white hair on their head, and I've seen people in their 40s who are entirely gray.

Swearing allegiance to the Teyrn: you clearly misunderstood this part. It doesn't say that the nobles chose to swear fealty to him, it says that the freeholders, commoners who own land, swore fealty to him. Remember that Fereldan freeholders can choose which noble they owe allegiance to.

Also, the Arl in Amaranthine at this point would be Rendon.

About Harper's Ford: Your reasoning here doesn't make any sense. Why would the Cousland's victory here mean they took back Highever earlier or never lost it? Arl Byron Howe, for example, maintains men under arms and claims his title even after he has joined the rebels and been stripped of his holdings by the usurper. William being Teyrn and beating Tarlton Howe's forces doesn't mean that the Orlesians don't have a puppet sitting in Highever, claiming to be Teyrn.

 

... while also being in his 70s?
 

Mentioned in what text? Eleanor's? I only have the wikia copy. Does the WoT2 version have text I am not aware of? Well we know that Ferelden was poor and Orlais was rich. So obviously their ships would be better. I can see Eleanor raiding the ship and killing the crew, but sinking the ship in combat? No way. Sinking it after it was taken over, sure, but why do that? Why not just take it back to the shipyard and deconstruct it or repurpose it?

 

The account for what, the study belonging to William? So for the new backstory to be true, then that can no longer be his study? If that's the case, I'd say that's a clear example of having to cut out pre-existing lore in order to make a new story work.

 

Not just their hair color but, yeah that was basically the only thing I mentioned. So I will add their facial features as well. They look old based on the lines in their faces.

 

Well the text on the wiki says the nobles were shocked to see them return after nearly 70 years of absence and quickly swore fealty. And yes it states the freeholders also swore fealty, BUT as I wrote, they can do that anyway. And besides, there was no arl at that point anyway, so it wouldn't pose a problem. The whole concept is self-contradictory. How can they swear fealty to him if he's not the teyrn, and if he is the teyrn then how was his rise complicated by freeholders swearing fealty to him? It just doesn't make sense.

 

It wasn't Rendon though. Byron was Rendon's uncle, brother to Tarlton. With Byron dead the question of who gets the arling is left open. And the lore states that Rendon was awarded the arling by King Maric. So it required Maric's involvement, and this was long after the fact concerning Bryce and Highever.

 

The Harper's Ford point was twofold. 1. William was old enough to lead the Highever soldiers effectively in several battles that eventually saw Tarlton hanged. So this plays into the age argument (or the age tug-o-war between William and Bryce. The younger Bryce is, the older William must be, and the older Bryce is the younger William can be realistically.) 2. The fact that Highever had forces enough to beat back Megrhen's primary ally means they had forces enough to hold Highever castle. Which makes the whole question of William dying and Bryce having to return to Highever with his body after this alleged near 70 year absence completely moot. What's more likely? That William was kicked out of Highever at 10-13 years old, despite being able to pwn Tarlton, only to return nearly 70 years later as a corpse; or is it more likely that William simply maintained control over Highever while Bryce did the heavy lifting toward the end?

 

See, William holding Highever was a similar to Rendorn Guerrin holding Redcliffe. Of course Rendorn swore fealty to Megrhen at first, so he didn't have to defend Redcliffe Castle, but my point is he maintained control and ownership over it. I think the most logical and likely scenario is one where William simply maintained control over Highever Castle. He was never driven out as a young teen, and thus his study and his collection of literature remained his. And that's why the male human noble can say that the study belonged to his grandfather.

[andy6915]

@Andy You realized you didn't actually reply to my post, right?
 
Come on, don't go after his list. He was just making a simple point that the writers often go back on something they were stressing at some earlier point. There's no need to explain away the situations he referenced. Noooooo neeeeeeed.

I didn't because I don't care to. In fact, I haven't even read it. You are wrong, period. Even if you're right, it doesn't change anything because Bioware is the one who says what is canon. They contradicted what templars do, they now seemingly reinforce the veil instead of using lyrium to replicate spirit magic like they used to according to canon. Clinging to the old explanation doesn't make it canon again, that's not how it works. Retcons are a thing, and you'd best get used to it.
 
But you're likely wrong, if I'm to guess. The post in the pirate topic that I actually did read doesn't give me much hope that your post in this topic will be particularly worth reading. You got a lot wrong in that one and made a lot of guesswork, I expect the same from this one... Which is why I didn't bother to read it. When you get right down to it, you're just butthurt that the canon you had in your head got destroyed. You need to learn to just accept it and move on when that happens. I should know, I've also gotten butthurt from getting my own head-canon being ruined by retcons or newly released info before. I've learned to accept it when it happens since then, and now you should too. Seriously, minor example? I thought of the city elf's mother as being a beautiful red head of fair skin (like an older Shianni), and made my character look like that in response. What does she look like after Leliana's Song showed her? The COMPLETE opposite.
 

 
I now make my city elf look like how Adaia really looked. But it hurt to know the person I had in my head for years wasn't at all what she really looked like. But I accepted it and adjusted my city elf's canon look accordingly, and moved on. It's not like Adaia looks bad, she just has ugly lipstick. That made it easier to accept. If they'd made her actually ugly, I would definitely have been more annoyed than I was. I still would have accepted it though. Still wish she looked like this instead though-
 

 
 
(Okay, secretly I still sometimes make my city elf a fair skinned red head... We don't know what hair color the father had before it went grey, so I still have wiggle room. Key word "sometimes"... A dark skinned elf is actually fun to make, and actually make you a bit more unique looking in the world since Ferelden is so lacking in truly dark skinned people.)

[Dai Grepher]

Antigonos Monophthalmos died in battle at Ipsos in 301 BC at the age of 81.

Seleukos I fought at Koroupedion in 281 BC when he was in his late seventies (date of birth is unreliable). His opponent, Lysimachos, was also in his late seventies or early eighties, and was killed in the battle.

 

Thank you for the example of why having old people on the battlefield is a bad idea. But here's my main question. Did they actually fight or did they just bark orders to their soldiers? Like... well... how the Inquisitor does at the chore table for instance.

 

Also, William's case would not just be one where he shows up on a battlefield and the two sides clash. The situation in Ferelden was guerrilla warfare. Moria's first attacks were stick and move type raids on caravans and stuff. William would have had legions marching around at random and on patrol. It would require routing troops to inhospitable areas for cover. Stuff like that. Not showing up for Sunday night football and playing the role of the coach.

[Dai Grepher]

I didn't because I don't care to. In fact, I haven't even read it. You are wrong, period. Even if you're right, it doesn't change anything because Bioware is the one who says what is canon. They contradicted what templars do, they now seemingly reinforce the veil instead of using lyrium to replicate spirit magic like they used to according to canon. Clinging to the old explanation doesn't make it canon again, that's not how it works. Retcons are a thing, and you'd best get used to it.
 
But you're likely wrong, if I'm to guess. The post in the pirate topic that I actually did read doesn't give me much hope that your post in this topic will be particularly worth reading. You got a lot wrong in that one and made a lot of guesswork, I expect the same from this one... Which is why I didn't bother to read it. When you get right down to it, you're just butthurt that the canon you had in your head got destroyed. You need to learn to just accept it and move on when that happens. I should know, I've also gotten butthurt from getting my own head-canon being ruined by retcons or newly released info before. I've learned to accept it when it happens since then, and now you should too. Seriously, minor example? I thought of the city elf's mother as being a beautiful red head of fair skin (like an older Shianni), and made my character look like that in response. What does she look like after Leliana's Song showed her? The COMPLETE opposite.
 
I now make my city elf look like how Adaia really looked. But it hurt to know the person I had in my head for years wasn't at all what she really looked like. But I accepted it and adjusted my city elf's canon look accordingly, and moved on. It's not like Adaia looks bad, she just has ugly lipstick. That made it easier to accept. If they'd made her actually ugly, I would definitely have been more annoyed than I was. I still would have accepted it though. Still wish she looked like this instead though-
 
(Okay, secretly I still sometimes make my city elf a fair skinned red head... We don't know what hair color the father had before it went grey, so I still have wiggle room. Key word "sometimes"... A dark skinned elf is actually fun to make, and actually make you a bit more unique looking in the world since Ferelden is so lacking in truly dark skinned people.)

 

So you admit you have not read my post, yet you somehow know it is wrong, and you somehow know what my intentions are in posting it. That about sums it up for you, doesn't it?
 

BioWare doesn't get to say what's canon! The lore says what's canon. If BioWare creates a new story that blatantly contradicts the pre-established lore, then BioWare's new story is WRONG!

 

Like in Inquisition where Fort Connor is named after Eamon's father... uh... Rendorn.

 

I didn't even post my reasoning in that thread. I posted it here because it was too long for that other thread. Admit it, you didn't read my post in the other thread either, did you?

 

What are you talking about? The city elf's father is white. So you can make the city elf that color if you want. Leliana's Song didn't mess up your canon.

 

And this new story doesn't mess up mine, because the new story contradicts and is thus non-canon.

 

It's possible that BioWare will see this and make the necessary statement to correct their mistakes, as they have already done in the past with such mistakes arising from WoT.

[X Equestris]

... while also being in his 70s?

Mentioned in what text? Eleanor's? I only have the wikia copy. Does the WoT2 version have text I am not aware of? Well we know that Ferelden was poor and Orlais was rich. So obviously their ships would be better. I can see Eleanor raiding the ship and killing the crew, but sinking the ship in combat? No way. Sinking it after it was taken over, sure, but why do that? Why not just take it back to the shipyard and deconstruct it or repurpose it?

The account for what, the study belonging to William? So for the new backstory to be true, then that can no longer be his study? If that's the case, I'd say that's a clear example of having to cut out pre-existing lore in order to make a new story work.

Not just their hair color but, yeah that was basically the only thing I mentioned. So I will add their facial features as well. They look old based on the lines in their faces.

Well the text on the wiki says the nobles were shocked to see them return after nearly 70 years of absence and quickly swore fealty. And yes it states the freeholders also swore fealty, BUT as I wrote, they can do that anyway. And besides, there was no arl at that point anyway, so it wouldn't pose a problem. The whole concept is self-contradictory. How can they swear fealty to him if he's not the teyrn, and if he is the teyrn then how was his rise complicated by freeholders swearing fealty to him? It just doesn't make sense.

It wasn't Rendon though. Byron was Rendon's uncle, brother to Tarlton. With Byron dead the question of who gets the arling is left open. And the lore states that Rendon was awarded the arling by King Maric. So it required Maric's involvement, and this was long after the fact concerning Bryce and Highever.

The Harper's Ford point was twofold. 1. William was old enough to lead the Highever soldiers effectively in several battles that eventually saw Tarlton hanged. So this plays into the age argument (or the age tug-o-war between William and Bryce. The younger Bryce is, the older William must be, and the older Bryce is the younger William can be realistically.) 2. The fact that Highever had forces enough to beat back Megrhen's primary ally means they had forces enough to hold Highever castle. Which makes the whole question of William dying and Bryce having to return to Highever with his body after this alleged near 70 year absence completely moot. What's more likely? That William was kicked out of Highever at 10-13 years old, despite being able to pwn Tarlton, only to return nearly 70 years later as a corpse; or is it more likely that William simply maintained control over Highever while Bryce did the heavy lifting toward the end?

See, William holding Highever was a similar to Rendorn Guerrin holding Redcliffe. Of course Rendorn swore fealty to Megrhen at first, so he didn't have to defend Redcliffe Castle, but my point is he maintained control and ownership over it. I think the most logical and likely scenario is one where William simply maintained control over Highever Castle. He was never driven out as a young teen, and thus his study and his collection of literature remained his. And that's why the male human noble can say that the study belonged to his grandfather.

Yes, Grandmaster de Valette led from the front during the Siege of Malta, while in his seventies.

Yes, it's the WoT2 text. As for sinking them after being boarded, you do that because it is difficult to hold captured ships while a large fleet action is going on, as appears to be the case. And no, I meant that it might be inserting a belated attempt by Florian to retake Denerim after the city had fallen. A last second minute attempt to salvage the situation after he had previously decided not to send aid.

About the swearing loyalty, the WoT2 text merely notes that freeholders along the Amaranthine side of Highever's border with the arling chose to swear fealty to Bryce over the Arl of Amaranthine, which complicated the Couslands' return to Highever. One wouldn't want to make relations with your neighbors worse. At that point, it doesn't matter if someone is Arl or not, whoever it is or would be is loosing vassals to Highever.

[Dai Grepher]

Yes, Grandmaster de Valette led from the front during the Siege of Malta, while in his seventies.

Yes, it's the WoT2 text. As for sinking them after being boarded, you do that because it is difficult to hold captured ships while a large fleet action is going on, as appears to be the case. And no, I meant that it might be inserting a belated attempt by Florian to retake Denerim after the city had fallen. A last second minute attempt to salvage the situation after he had previously decided not to send aid.

About the swearing loyalty, the WoT2 text merely notes that freeholders along Highever's border chose to swear fealty to Bryce over the Arl of Amaranthine, which complicated the Couslands' return to Highever. One wouldn't want to make relations with your neighbors worse. At that point, it doesn't matter if someone is Arl or not, whoever it is or would be is loosing vassals to Highever.

 

Good for him. How many battles did he lead from the front while he was in his 70s? Was it just the one? Because already according to the lore, William led several at least, and that was just against Tarlton.

 

Well thanks for confirming that then. I'd have to say that's just another plot hole in that case. Where are all these things in the games? Show me! Call down their wrath upon me. You cannot. For they do not exist!

 

Oh. Well I would contest that idea then. Florian cut off Megrhen for three years. If he wanted to make one last attempt on Denerim he would have sent the reinforcements before Denerim fell to Maric, not afterward. Doing it after makes no sense. Doing it at all makes no sense. The whole point of cutting Megrhen off was that the rebels would never give up, even if Florian held Denerim or took it back, the rebellion would still go on, so long as Maric lived.

 

Yeah but it states (or rather the crap wiki states) that it complicated the proceeding of Bryce's ascension to Teyrn. Not that it delayed him from getting back to Highever.

[X Equestris]

Good for him. How many battles did he lead from the front while he was in his 70s? Was it just the one? Because already according to the lore, William led several at least, and that was just against Tarlton.
 
Well thanks for confirming that then. I'd have to say that's just another plot hole in that case. Where are all these things in the games? Show me! Call down their wrath upon me. You cannot. For they do not exist!
 
Oh. Well I would contest that idea then. Florian cut off Megrhen for three years. If he wanted to make one last attempt on Denerim he would have sent the reinforcements before Denerim fell to Maric, not afterward. Doing it after makes no sense. Doing it at all makes no sense. The whole point of cutting Megrhen off was that the rebels would never give up, even if Florian held Denerim or took it back, the rebellion would still go on, so long as Maric lived.
 
Yeah but it states (or rather the crap wiki states) that it complicated the proceeding of Bryce's ascension to Teyrn. Not that it delayed him from getting back to Highever.

About the fealty thing, I think it's just that it made the Couslands' return to power more difficult, the Arls of Amaranthine are major vassals of theirs, and undercutting them by letting people who've traditionally sworn loyalty to them swear it straight to the Couslands instead might aggravate them. I believe that the codex for the Bannorn mentions such things have been the cause of feuds before. So it's more a political headache than anything.

[Dai Grepher]

But there was no Arl of Amaranthine at that time.

[Aimi]

Thank you for the example of why having old people on the battlefield is a bad idea. But here's my main question. Did they actually fight or did they just bark orders to their soldiers? Like... well... how the Inquisitor does at the chore table for instance.

Classical battle narratives are intrinsically problematic because authors often employed standardized tropes to relay the stories rather than exactly faithful accounts of the events. In addition, the Battles of Ipsos and Koroupedion are hard to judge because most of the sources on them are quite late, and although they epitomized early sources (including the history of Hieronymos of Kardia, an officer in the army of Antigonos and Demetrios at Ipsos) there are sometimes interpolations and errors in the epitomized text. So: take this with a grain of salt.

At Ipsos, Antigonos was somewhere amongst his heavy infantry in an area where he clearly expected combat. Unfortunately for him, the battle did not go as he expected. The allied forces of Kassandros, Lysimachos, and Seleukos understood that their army was weak in heavy infantry compared to Antigonos' and crafted a plan that played to their strengths by keeping the two forces of heavy infantry apart while drawing out the skirmishing between them with light infantry. Antigonos ordered his son Demetrios to lead the cavalry on the flanks in attacking the allied light infantry and cavalry; Demetrios successfully defeated the allied cavalry but foolishly chased them off the field in hot pursuit instead of turning to destroy the allied light infantry. In the meantime, Seleukos moved up his elephant corps to block any future flank attack by Demetrios. The allied missiles told on Antigonos' phalanx, which began to retreat, and the king was apparently killed by a spear or arrow while trying to rally his troops.

It is unclear how Lysimachos died at Koroupedion, but it's clear that he did fight in the battle, probably with his agema of heavy cavalry. The sources say that his favorite dog followed him into the fighting and was found dead alongside him when Seleukos' victorious troops looted the field afterward. But apart from random anecdotes, there is no narrative of the Battle of Koroupedion; all we know is that Lysimachos' army met Seleukos', and Lysimachos was killed and his army shattered such that Seleukos was able to conquer his whole kingdom in the sequel. We don't know whether Lysimachos died in a failed attempt to rally his retreating troops, like Antigonos did, or whether his death came during the climax of the fighting when the issue was still in doubt, like Neoptolemos at the Battle of the Hellespont. As for Seleukos, he probably participated in the fighting in some form, but whether his spear actually drew blood in the heat of battle is similarly unknown.

The Wars of the Successors are actually replete with the tales of aged warriors in battle. Leaving the commanders aside, there's the strange tale of the argyraspidai, the Silver Shields. They had been the elite infantry of Philippos and Alexandros, the hypaspistai, and after Alexandros' death they stayed together as a unit and were aligned with various warlords by turns as the empire fell apart. Many of these men had gotten their start when Philippos was young, in the 350s BC; by the time the Successors went to war, they were in their sixties and seventies. And they were the most feared infantry in the entire empire. They served Eumenes in the campaign on the edges of the great Iranian salt desert in 317 and 316 BC, at the Battles of Paraitakene and Gabiene, and both times they annihilated forces of much younger - but less experienced - men. They defeated Antigonos' entire left wing at Paraitakene (where they apparently taunted Antigonos' army calling them "wicked men" for attacking their own fathers, "who had conquered the world with Philippos and Alexandros"), while at Gabiene they formed square and repelled all the attacks Antigonos could direct at them, even when the rest of Eumenes' army was reeling in defeat, such that Antigonos was forced to retreat once again. The argyraspidai were never defeated in battle, and Antigonos only won them over by capturing their families and valuables and ransoming them away in exchange for taking Eumenes and his most loyal officers prisoner.

All of this is to say that while the likes of William soldiering around in person at an advanced age in the seventies or eighties would be extremely unusual, there's no reason to dismiss it out of hand.

Besides, there are so many more goofy things in this setting to talk about that this particular niggle is really not a big deal by comparison.

[KaiserShep]

About the fealty thing, I think it's just that it made the Couslands' return to power more difficult, the Arls of Amaranthine are major vassals of theirs, and undercutting them by letting people who've traditionally sworn loyalty to them swear it straight to the Couslands instead might aggravate them. I believe that the codex for the Bannorn mentions such things have been the cause of feuds before. So it's more a political headache than anything.

 

Doesn't the Warden-Commander, particularly the Cousland WC, pretty much eliminate the most problematic elements among the late Howe's vassals?

[andy6915]

Classical battle narratives are intrinsically problematic because authors often employed standardized tropes to relay the stories rather than exactly faithful accounts of the events. In addition, the Battles of Ipsos and Koroupedion are hard to judge because most of the sources on them are quite late, and although they epitomized early sources (including the history of Hieronymos of Kardia, an officer in the army of Antigonos and Demetrios at Ipsos) there are sometimes interpolations and errors in the epitomized text. So: take this with a grain of salt.

At Ipsos, Antigonos was somewhere amongst his heavy infantry in an area where he clearly expected combat. Unfortunately for him, the battle did not go as he expected. The allied forces of Kassandros, Lysimachos, and Seleukos understood that their army was weak in heavy infantry compared to Antigonos' and crafted a plan that played to their strengths by keeping the two forces of heavy infantry apart while drawing out the skirmishing between them with light infantry. Antigonos ordered his son Demetrios to lead the cavalry on the flanks in attacking the allied light infantry and cavalry; Demetrios successfully defeated the allied cavalry but foolishly chased them off the field in hot pursuit instead of turning to destroy the allied light infantry. In the meantime, Seleukos moved up his elephant corps to block any future flank attack by Demetrios. The allied missiles told on Antigonos' phalanx, which began to retreat, and the king was apparently killed by a spear or arrow while trying to rally his troops.

It is unclear how Lysimachos died at Koroupedion, but it's clear that he did fight in the battle, probably with his agema of heavy cavalry. The sources say that his favorite dog followed him into the fighting and was found dead alongside him when Seleukos' victorious troops looted the field afterward. But apart from random anecdotes, there is no narrative of the Battle of Koroupedion; all we know is that Lysimachos' army met Seleukos', and Lysimachos was killed and his army shattered such that Seleukos was able to conquer his whole kingdom in the sequel. We don't know whether Lysimachos died in a failed attempt to rally his retreating troops, like Antigonos did, or whether his death came during the climax of the fighting when the issue was still in doubt, like Neoptolemos at the Battle of the Hellespont. As for Seleukos, he probably participated in the fighting in some form, but whether his spear actually drew blood in the heat of battle is similarly unknown.

The Wars of the Successors are actually replete with the tales of aged warriors in battle. Leaving the commanders aside, there's the strange tale of the argyraspidai, the Silver Shields. They had been the elite infantry of Philippos and Alexandros, the hypaspistai, and after Alexandros' death they stayed together as a unit and were aligned with various warlords by turns as the empire fell apart. Many of these men had gotten their start when Philippos was young, in the 350s BC; by the time the Successors went to war, they were in their sixties and seventies. And they were the most feared infantry in the entire empire. They served Eumenes in the campaign on the edges of the great Iranian salt desert in 317 and 316 BC, at the Battles of Paraitakene and Gabiene, and both times they annihilated forces of much younger - but less experienced - men. They defeated Antigonos' entire left wing at Paraitakene (where they apparently taunted Antigonos' army calling them "wicked men" for attacking their own fathers, "who had conquered the world with Philippos and Alexandros"), while at Gabiene they formed square and repelled all the attacks Antigonos could direct at them, even when the rest of Eumenes' army was reeling in defeat, such that Antigonos was forced to retreat once again. The argyraspidai were never defeated in battle, and Antigonos only won them over by capturing their families and valuables and ransoming them away in exchange for taking Eumenes and his most loyal officers prisoner.

All of this is to say that while the likes of William soldiering around in person at an advanced age in the seventies or eighties would be extremely unusual, there's no reason to dismiss it out of hand.

Besides, there are so many more goofy things in this setting to talk about that this particular niggle is really not a big deal by comparison.

 

I'm... I'm lost . I don't even know what this has to do with Dragon Age anymore.

[Aimi]

I'm... I'm lost . I don't even know what this has to do with Dragon Age anymore.

mang I even put a tl;dr in the last two sentences of the post, but to rephrase:

there are historical examples of really old people actually doing army stuff so saying that the Cousland family history is ridiculous because it features a really old person doing army stuff isn't a particularly strong criticism

and considering the MUCH LARGER issues with plausibility that the games and setting have, bringing up a really old person doing army stuff is a case of bizarre priorities in my opinion