166 réponses à ce sujet

[Quarian Master Race]

Except it's already doing 3552 on impact. In order for it to do no more, you would have to kill the target literally instantly after the first incinerate. Let's compare DPS:

A claymore build, with maximum possible weapon damage, will do about 2500 DPS from the claymore+ammo, 600 DPS from cryo blast+incinerate+explosion(once every 7 seconds, on armor), and *maybe* 200 damage from the shock turret, every 3 seconds. A grand total of around 3160 DPS.

A Talon build, with maximum power damage and pistol damage, will do about 2000 DPS from the talon+ammo, plus 3 casts of incinerate(plus 1 cryo) every 8s for 1600 armor DPS, + 3 explosions for ~400 DPS, + ~650 DPS from the turret. A grand total of 4650 DPS, Nearly 50% more DPS than the claymore build.

Face it! The claymore is just...inferior. Gotta love that power damage.

Your math assumes that both are standing in one place firing at a single target that is making no attempt to evade, power block or fight back in any way, as well as the random turret being preset and cooperating fully with what you are trying to do. Theoretical single target DPS in an extremely specific operating window is not a very good measure. A cursory running of the same numbers with the Piranha outdoes both builds (again not factoring in power/firing and reload synergy), though it obviously has practical range issues when used with the kit that makes attaining that damage impractical. It's like saying that the Incisor is a better gun than the Black Widow because its DPS is higher and its weight much lower, and ignoring the fact that the game isn't just standing in one place and shooting a single target that isn't firing back.

Moreover, it really just highlights the problem that there are several overpowered lightweight weapons like the Talon that have too much power for their encumberance. Your build isn't outdoing the other (mostly because it's essentially the same) so much as the Talon is outdoing the Claymore because the latter's DPS is balanced by its weight and the former's really isn't. There are very few kits where using a Hurricane, Arc Pistol, Talon, Reegar or Wraith won't get you the most theoretical DPS of any setup, even on the weapon platforms where the heavier weapons should ideally be better (Talon/Hurricane GI anyone?)

Considering I'm pretty sure you and Derpbear are both on PC, this could be settled via bumbumdome rather easily   . If I had to bet, just from personal experience playing the kit both ways I'd put money on the Claymore if its running an AM3 and the power build is running a power amp, simply because mobility and usable burst damage> theoretical sustained DPS over the course of a game. Of course, if you use the AM3 and throw on an Arc Pistol or something, yeah, that's probably the most efficient means of playing the kit, but again its mostly the technically superior weapon doing the work.

[Kenny Bania]

People really getting upset because someone decides to use a Claymore. Smh.

[DemiserofD]

Your math assumes that both are standing in one place firing at a single target that is making no attempt to evade, power block or fight back in any way, as well as the random turret being preset and cooperating fully with what you are trying to do. Theoretical single target DPS in an extremely specific operating window is not a very good measure. A cursory running of the same numbers with the Piranha outdoes both builds (again not factoring in power/firing and reload synergy), though it obviously has practical range issues when used with the kit that makes attaining that damage impractical. It's like saying that the Incisor is a better gun than the Black Widow because its DPS is higher and its weight much lower, and ignoring the fact that the game isn't just standing in one place and shooting a single target that isn't firing back.

Moreover, it really just highlights the problem that there are several overpowered lightweight weapons like the Talon that have too much power for their encumberance. Your build isn't outdoing the other (mostly because it's essentially the same) so much as the Talon is outdoing the Claymore because the latter's DPS is balanced by its weight and the former's really isn't. There are very few kits where using a Hurricane, Arc Pistol, Talon, Reegar or Wraith won't get you the most theoretical DPS of any setup, even on the weapon platforms where the heavier weapons should ideally be better (Talon/Hurricane GI anyone?)

Considering I'm pretty sure you and Derpbear are both on PC, this could be settled via bumbumdome rather easily   . If I had to bet, just from personal experience playing the kit both ways I'd put money on the Claymore if its running an AM3 and the power build is running a power amp, simply because mobility and usable burst damage> theoretical sustained DPS over the course of a game. Of course, if you use the AM3 and throw on an Arc Pistol or something, yeah, that's probably the most efficient means of playing the kit, but again its mostly the technically superior weapon doing the work.

To be fair, thunderdome is about the worst possible level for a turret user. Turrets are dumb and hit walls a lot if they're placed near them, and glacier is basically pure walls. London would be a fairer choice, imo.

The other issue is that the turret does way more damage on host than off host, for some reason. Plus other weirdness like its health circle only showing up on host. I suppose you could play a couple games on and off-host and average the scores or something.

Oh, also; the Talon does less damage than the claymore.. In exchange, you get better cooldowns. How the heck is that any more overpowered than the claymore itself?

[Miniditka77]

I seriously don't understand the claymore builds. Almost any other class would be better with a claymore.

This is one of VERY few classes in the game that actually gets a decent boost from power damage. Why not take advantage of that? Why build it exactly like any soldier build when you could make it actually different and interesting?

 

Cryo Blast does synergize pretty well with the Claymore.  If you're not using AP ammo, Warp Ammo, or Cryo Ammo, you're still losing a pretty significant amount of weapon damage to armor DR.  Cryo Blast fixes that.  Cryo Blast's cooldown being short also helps when you're using a heavier weapon, so you are more likely to have a stagger power ready in case you need to bust it out in an emergency.  Or in case you need to make a Phantom just sit still for one guldurn second so you can shoot her in the face.

 

A lot of Claymore builds are really just about using the Claymore because it's awesome, but the Claymore QFE actually makes some synergistic sense.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I don't exclusively play her with Claymore either (pretty much every shotgun and most of the pistols), but using stagger lock means even less reason to take fitness. Nothing should ever be able to shoot you with such a setup, and quarian power damage bonus is pretty good, (only drell can be 5% higher IIRC). Though yeah, with a pitiful weapon like the Falcon you probably won't get much use out of the weapon damage at rank 6, but still more than fitness when you've a stagger weapon and two good CC powers (3 if you count incinerate's burn effect).

Either way, your statement of "no reason not to take fitness" seemed very silly to me, when full quarian fitness is a terrible investment unless you want to stack some shield power cells on it (which I admittedly do sometimes with 5 ranks in the quarksman) play melee, or are singularly obsessed with tanking gold banshee warps for some reason. 390 shields and .6 off of recharge makes no difference when you don't have any DR and aren't getting under shieldgate's recharge threshold without cells anyway.
 

The magic shield-gate threshold that doesn't work isn't my concern with it, but the other thing you mentioned--the Falcon is a pretty weak gun. The damage increase there is pretty paltry and since I run her with a cyclonic IV (I know, I know, but when I want to play something agile and fragile, I summon a Drell) I get a bigger threshold before the shield gate happens and a quicker recharge when I max my shields by going into fitness. I'm not daring to tell you how to l2p Quarian, but I use a different setup that I find highly rewarding and extremely practical. Pugs appreciate when you can staggerlock a couple of phantoms and a marauder all at once, it makes it easier for them to kill things and not get obliterated.

[DemiserofD]

Cryo Blast does synergize pretty well with the Claymore.  If you're not using AP ammo, Warp Ammo, or Cryo Ammo, you're still losing a pretty significant amount of weapon damage to armor DR.  Cryo Blast fixes that.  Cryo Blast's cooldown being short also helps when you're using a heavier weapon, so you are more likely to have a stagger power ready in case you need to bust it out in an emergency.  Or in case you need to make a Phantom just sit still for one guldurn second so you can shoot her in the face.

 

A lot of Claymore builds are really just about using the Claymore because it's awesome, but the Claymore QFE actually makes some synergistic sense.

I can see the logic there, but if your only draw to the class is cryo blast, why not use a different class that has it, as well as other things that compliment the weapon? Human Infiltrator, for example. From a gameplay perspective, it would be functionally identical, except with way more damage and utility. The only thing you'd lose is the turret which everyone who takes a claymore build says sucks anyway. So why bother?

[Deerber]

Except it's already doing 3552 on impact. In order for it to do no more, you would have to kill the target literally instantly after the first incinerate. Let's compare DPS:

A claymore build, with maximum possible weapon damage, will do about 2500 DPS from the claymore+ammo, 600 DPS from cryo blast+incinerate+explosion(once every 7 seconds, on armor), and *maybe* 200 damage from the shock turret, every 3 seconds. A grand total of around 3160 DPS.

A Talon build, with maximum power damage and pistol damage, will do about 2000 DPS from the talon+ammo, plus 3 casts of incinerate(plus 1 cryo) every 8s for 1600 armor DPS, + 3 explosions for ~400 DPS, + ~650 DPS from the turret. A grand total of 4650 DPS, Nearly 50% more DPS than the claymore build.

Face it! The claymore is just...inferior. Gotta love that power damage.

 

 

To be fair, thunderdome is about the worst possible level for a turret user. Turrets are dumb and hit walls a lot if they're placed near them, and glacier is basically pure walls. London would be a fairer choice, imo.

The other issue is that the turret does way more damage on host than off host, for some reason. Plus other weirdness like its health circle only showing up on host. I suppose you could play a couple games on and off-host and average the scores or something.

Oh, also; the Talon does about half the DPS of the claymore. In exchange, you get better cooldowns. How the heck is that any more overpowered than the claymore itself?

 

 

I can see the logic there, but if your only draw to the class is cryo blast, why not use a different class that has it, as well as other things that compliment the weapon? Human Infiltrator, for example. From a gameplay perspective, it would be functionally identical, except with way more damage and utility. The only thing you'd lose is the turret which everyone who takes a claymore build says sucks anyway. So why bother?

 

 

One question: are you ****** kidding me? No seriously, are you trying to troll or something? Or are you serious?

Cause I swear to Amonkira, if you're serious you must have had your brain eaten by a tresher maw when you were a child. Hard to explain it otherwise...

[DemiserofD]

One question: are you ****** kidding me? No seriously, are you trying to troll or something? Or are you serious?

Cause I swear to Amonkira, if you're serious you must have had your brain eaten by a tresher maw when you were a child. Hard to explain it otherwise...

Is all you do insult people? Because all you've done so far is present no rational arguments, call me an idiot, and babble in a foreign language of angrish.

The QFE is A: Statistically superior as a power-based build, B: Inferior to other classes with a claymore, even ones that are almost identical, and C: Even when you use it exactly as you described it, kinda mediocre. What are you even arguing for?

[Deerber]

Right, so... Tonight I'm pissed off enough to actually waste some time demolishing your reasoning step by step. Let's start it.

 

 

Except it's already doing 3552 on impact (2). In order for it to do no more, you would have to kill the target literally instantly after the first incinerate. Let's compare DPS:

A claymore build, with maximum possible weapon damage, will do about 2500 DPS (3) from the claymore+ammo, 600 DPS from cryo blast+incinerate+explosion(once every 7 seconds, on armor) (4), and *maybe* 200 damage from the shock turret, every 3 seconds. A grand total of around 3160 DPS.

A Talon build, with maximum power damage and pistol damage, will do about 2000 DPS from the talon+ammo (5), plus 3 casts of incinerate (6) (plus 1 cryo) every 8s for 1600 armor DPS, + 3 explosions for ~400 DPS (7), + ~650 DPS from the turret (8). A grand total of 4650 DPS, Nearly 50% more DPS than the claymore build.

 

(9)

 

1), which you're not gonna find above, unlike the rest: loldps. No seriously, thinking of dps as the end-all of all statistics about the effectiveness of a gun, power, kit, build or loadout or whatever is just... Stupid. And I'm not gonna delve more into this if you don't realize it yourself. By the time this post is finished, I'll already have wasted more than enough time on it. I suppose you could try and read what QMR wrote above, maybe it might help a bit.

 

2) Except that it doesn't. 25% of its base, non-dot damage comes as a dot too, which means you're gonna do exactly half of that 5.3k figure on impact, which means no more than 2.7k. Certainly not 3.5.

 

3) Wat. What kind of enemy are we talking about, firstly? Are we talking armor, I guess? And an enemy with a 1.4 headshot multiplier, I guess, since that's what turns more in your favor. If you start comparing things with 2.5 headshots as a factor, well... Lolpowerdamage is all I'm going to say. So, 1.4 headshot bonus.

 

Even then, your math is wrong. This build has a claymore + ammo dps, on armor, of roughly 3100, and that's without taking in consideration the incendiary glitch, which is actually gonna skyrocket it probably more around 4k. But let's compute things assuming everything was fair and square (even though it isn't). 3100, not 2500.

 

4) Now would be a good time to understand why your build acts for 8.59 secs (see below) and mine acts for 7. So I'm gonna go ahead and suppose that I'm gonna get a second incinerate in, but only taking into account the dps of it for roughly the second and a half I've got left after the 7 have passed, which I think it's fair. It turns the 600 dps into 700.

 

5) Now, let's compute this again, shall we? Since you didn't provide a build yourself, I made one for you, which I believe is the best you can do with a talon and the power amp and incendiary for the explosions. It ends up to 1900 dps. I'm not sure if you just approximated to 2k, but if you did, then yeah, convenient, uh?

 

6) This would be the moment when I point out that you actually need 8.59 secs, not 8. Careful with the approximations. As I said, I already kept count of this in the other incinerate's dps calculation.

 

7) Lolwut. You can only detonate one explosion from incendiary ammo, unless you stop firing for 4 whole seconds which you're obviously not gonna do. 135 DPS.

 

8) LOL! And why is it, exactly, that your turret does 650 DPS while mine does 60? Space magic? Or you think it actually fires once every cooldown? Or are you just ****** kidding me, really? Dammit, you must think I'm an idiot. Bad for you: I'm not. If my turret does 200 damage every 3 secs, yours does around 300. That is, 100 DPS.

 

9) So let's compute the results, shall we?

Claymore: 3100 + 700 + 60 = 3860.

 

Talon: 1900 + 1600 + 135 + 100 = 3735.

 

I'm not sure if you intended on skewing the results towards your build (in which case you're an idiot if you think I would fall for it), or if you just couldn't do the proper math yourself (in which case you should probably avoid making such posts).

 

As you can see, the claymore's build's numbers, that almighty dps you're so concerned about, is higher than your build.

 

But not just that.

 

It is higher in the only situation in which your build is actually somewhat competitive with it.

 

That is, an opponent with armor *and* 1.4 headshot multiplier *and* no damage spikes *and* no multi-hit glitch *and* no power blocking auras.

 

Do you know how many such enemies exist in this game?

 

I'll tell you: one.

 

Just. One. Single. Enemy. The bloody goddamned Geth Prime. (which you should rocket on sight, by the way, so it shouldn't be counted).

 

Against *any* other enemy in the game, one or more of the above conditions fails, which results in the Claymore build's DPS taking a much bigger lead.

 

Not to mention that you're basically useless against anything which still has shields or barriers, since your incinerate DPS gets cut by 66% (lol!), and not even the 1.5 multiplier of your (broken) gun can make up for that.

 

Not to mention that I also didn't account for the incendiary ammo glitch, which is going to do *a lot* more benefit to the Claymore build than to the Talon one, probably making up for another 200 or so DPS difference even in your ideal circumstances.

 

Not to mention that, even if we assume that we really care about dps (lol), we're still only talking about sustained DPS, which is pretty much bullshit, as burst DPS is a much more important factor in this game. And you do*not* want to compare burst DPS of those two setups, trust me.

 

 

 

And last, but not the least. Again. DPS is a stupid number that doesn't have even half the meaning you think it has. There are so many factors that are not represented by it such as range, accuracy, speed of your kit (I got an adrenaline module, you do not), OHK capabilities, etc. TTK would be a much better representation of the usefuleness of a kit/loadout against each enemy. But even then, there are flaws with it.

 

The only thing that doesn't lie is experience. You get down in the battlefield, you try things out, you learn which one if the best. Theorycrafting will never be as truthful as that.

 

You clearly have never seen anyone play a FQE with a claymore the right way. I'm sure the first time that'll happen, you'll realize how wrong you are.

[Deerber]

Is all you do insult people? Because all you've done so far is present no rational arguments, call me an idiot, and babble in a foreign language of angrish.

The QFE is A: Statistically superior as a power-based build, B: Inferior to other classes with a claymore, even ones that are almost identical, and C: Even when you use it exactly as you described it, kinda mediocre. What are you even arguing for?

 

Oh, funny, you anticipated me. Very well. You should start reading, if you're so interested in logical arguments.

[Caineghis2500]

People really getting upset because someone decides to use a Claymore. Smh.

I don't understand the dislike some people have for the claymore. I mean its a top tier weapon that should've been an ultra rear IMO. They prolly just sour cuz they can't aim....

[ALTBOULI]

[parico]

Turret is solidly mediocre.

 

I have seen all sorts of grandiose claims about turret like that it staggers Phantoms and it invented the question mark, but really it is just ok for a little mook stagger every now and then.  This is also why any investment in turret above Rank 4 is largely wasted.

 

It used to be great before they nerfed it especially against reapers.  You could literally have 2 brutes a bunch of husks and a banshee all standing around it like idiots while you shot them apart.   Now they just ignore it and since then so do I.  I don't waste points on it.  More fun spamming cyro blast and incinerate with her now. 

[DemiserofD]

Right, so... Tonight I'm pissed off enough to actually waste some time demolishing your reasoning step by step. Let's start it.

 

 

 

1), which you're not gonna find above, unlike the rest: loldps. No seriously, thinking of dps as the end-all of all statistics about the effectiveness of a gun, power, kit, build or loadout or whatever is just... Stupid. And I'm not gonna delve more into this if you don't realize it yourself. By the time this post is finished, I'll already have wasted more than enough time on it. I suppose you could try and read what QMR wrote above, maybe it might help a bit.

 

2) Except that it doesn't. 25% of its base, non-dot damage comes as a dot too, which means you're gonna do exactly half of that 5.3k figure on impact, which means no more than 2.7k. Certainly not 3.5.

 

3) Wat. What kind of enemy are we talking about, firstly? Are we talking armor, I guess? And an enemy with a 1.4 headshot multiplier, I guess, since that's what turns more in your favor. If you start comparing things with 2.5 headshots as a factor, well... Lolpowerdamage is all I'm going to say. So, 1.4 headshot bonus.

 

Even then, your math is wrong. This build has a claymore + ammo dps, on armor, of roughly 3100, and that's without taking in consideration the incendiary glitch, which is actually gonna skyrocket it probably more around 4k. But let's compute things assuming everything was fair and square (even though it isn't). 3100, not 2500.

 

4) Now would be a good time to understand why your build acts for 8.59 secs (see below) and mine acts for 7. So I'm gonna go ahead and suppose that I'm gonna get a second incinerate in, but only taking into account the dps of it for roughly the second and a half I've got left after the 7 have passed, which I think it's fair. It turns the 600 dps into 700.

 

5) Now, let's compute this again, shall we? Since you didn't provide a build yourself, I made one for you, which I believe is the best you can do with a talon and the power amp and incendiary for the explosions. It ends up to 1900 dps. I'm not sure if you just approximated to 2k, but if you did, then yeah, convenient, uh?

 

6) This would be the moment when I point out that you actually need 8.59 secs, not 8. Careful with the approximations. As I said, I already kept count of this in the other incinerate's dps calculation.

 

7) Lolwut. You can only detonate one explosion from incendiary ammo, unless you stop firing for 4 whole seconds which you're obviously not gonna do. 135 DPS.

 

8) LOL! And why is it, exactly, that your turret does 650 DPS while mine does 60? Space magic? Or you think it actually fires once every cooldown? Or are you just ****** kidding me, really? Dammit, you must think I'm an idiot. Bad for you: I'm not. If my turret does 200 damage every 3 secs, yours does around 300. That is, 100 DPS.

 

9) So let's compute the results, shall we?

Claymore: 3100 + 700 + 60 = 3860.

 

Talon: 1900 + 1600 + 135 + 100 = 3735.

 

I'm not sure if you intended on skewing the results towards your build (in which case you're an idiot if you think I would fall for it), or if you just couldn't do the proper math yourself (in which case you should probably avoid making such posts).

 

As you can see, the claymore's build's numbers, that almighty dps you're so concerned about, is higher than your build.

 

But not just that.

 

It is higher in the only situation in which your build is actually somewhat competitive with it.

 

That is, an opponent with armor *and* 1.4 headshot multiplier *and* no damage spikes *and* no multi-hit glitch *and* no power blocking auras.

 

Do you know how many such enemies exist in this game?

 

I'll tell you: one.

 

Just. One. Single. Enemy. The bloody goddamned Geth Prime. (which you should rocket on sight, by the way, so it shouldn't be counted).

 

Against *any* other enemy in the game, one or more of the above conditions fails, which results in the Claymore build's DPS taking a much bigger lead.

 

Not to mention that you're basically useless against anything which still has shields or barriers, since your incinerate DPS gets cut by 66% (lol!), and not even the 1.5 multiplier of your (broken) gun can make up for that.

 

Not to mention that I also didn't account for the incendiary ammo glitch, which is going to do *a lot* more benefit to the Claymore build than to the Talon one, probably making up for another 200 or so DPS difference even in your ideal circumstances.

 

Not to mention that, even if we assume that we really care about dps (lol), we're still only talking about sustained DPS, which is pretty much bullshit, as burst DPS is a much more important factor in this game. And you do*not* want to compare burst DPS of those two setups, trust me.

 

 

 

And last, but not the least. Again. DPS is a stupid number that doesn't have even half the meaning you think it has. There are so many factors that are not represented by it such as range, accuracy, speed of your kit (I got an adrenaline module, you do not), OHK capabilities, etc. TTK would be a much better representation of the usefuleness of a kit/loadout against each enemy. But even then, there are flaws with it.

 

The only thing that doesn't lie is experience. You get down in the battlefield, you try things out, you learn which one if the best. Theorycrafting will never be as truthful as that.

 

You clearly have never seen anyone play a FQE with a claymore the right way. I'm sure the first time that'll happen, you'll realize how wrong you are.

Fine, I'll reply to you on a point-by-point basis, so it's easier to understand.

1) That's perfectly true. And the Talon is superior in every way. Not only does it have comparative DPS to the claymore(slightly less, but who's counting), but it has a 1.5x damage modifier versus shields and barriers, making it almost 50% BETTER than the claymore in that circumstance. And after the barriers are eliminated, a single incinerate on the already cryo-blasted target will kill every mook in the game. The ONLY enemy this build has troubles with is phantoms, and that's because of lolDR. Otherwise the talon is comparable or better in every respect.

2) That's a good point, but even then, against large targets you will be casting incinerate multiple times(or, at least, you should be), stacking your DPS and getting the vast majority of it back. Maybe not 100%, but if you are familiar with DoT's, there's no reason you can't move on once a target is damaged enough to die from it. Your inability to utilize DoT damage to its fullest potential does not mean it doesn't exist.

3) Since we're talking about Gold+, yeah, armor. Armor is the vast majority of the game here. Furthermore, there is exactly one armored target with a 2.5x headshot modifier, and that's the Dragoon. For everything else, headshots with a claymore are such ridiculous overkill I wonder why you'd even bother mentioning it? Sure, it might be DPS, but doing 3000 more damage than they have health doesn't count for anything ingame or out. Against every other mook enemy, one talon shot+one incinerate will kill them, so there's functionally no difference.

Furthermore, how are you extrapolating that DPS? I calculated it by dividing the damage per shot of a basic claymore by it's reload canceled max sustained DPS as provided by this chart. That gave me the maximum fire rate of the claymore, which I then divided the maximum damage per shot by. In your circumstance, 4462 damage per shot translates to 2208.16 DPS, actually lower than my figures, but in my calculations I also used the shotgun damage gear. If we want to be fully correct, we should reduce the damage I posted by 300. I was being equally generous everywhere, but if you really want to be insistent on these things we can do that. You will lose.

Please, I really want to emphasize this; Your entire argument is based on DPS numbers that are wrong! If you can't even bother to get your statistics right, I don't know why I should bother!

4) (firstly, I removed weight increasing items from both weapons, as realistically speaking, we'd glitch their weight away anyway. This should balance the builds, as both use +50% weight items. I still use the weight items for damage calculations, however. Moving on.)

Your build and my build operate on different times because of the cooldowns inherent to the builds. Your Cryo Blast has a cooldown of 2.7 seconds, and your incinerate has a cooldown of 4.32 seconds, totaling to 7.02 seconds. Given that you took area effect instead of duration, you will launch your first incinerate midway through its duration, and will not be able to launch a second one until 1.42 seconds after the duration has expired. Even accounting for travel times and approaching enemies, that's far too long to allow you to get a second incinerate in on weakened enemies.

On my build, I took duration and have much shorter cooldowns. (The build you posted is actually exactly mine. Not sure if you made it yourself or looked it up where I posted it earlier in the thread. Either way, bravo). In any case, We have cryo blast, with a cooldown of 1.48 seconds, followed by as many incinerates as can be squeezed into an 8 second debuff period, each with a cooldown of 2.37 seconds, totaling to 8.59 seconds. Given that, typically, enemies start out far away and approach you, thus decreasing travel times of your powers, it isn't unreasonable to expect to gain .6 seconds just from enemy distance. Therefore, 3 incinerates per cast of cryo blast. On the other hand, it's completely unrealistic to expect to cancel nearly 1.5 seconds in any consistent manner.

5) Once again, the damage stated is not DPS, but damage per shot. Also again, you're not accounting for barrier/shield damage(though I didn't do that either since I was focusing mainly on armor, so whatever). That I rounded the figures is an acceptable criticism, I suppose. However, you should also remember that in many circumstances the talon will not need to reload directly during combat, while the claymore always will, giving a significant mid-combat DPS bonus. Either way, I feel my numbers are not significantly incorrect enough to bother worrying about. If you must, revise it down by 50 DPS or something. It doesn't really make that much difference.

6) See 4. 

7) My turret does 650 DPS because mine is built for damage and yours is built as a distraction. Firstly, it was previously stated that the skill would be taken to rank 4, shock. Shock does minimal damage. Furthermore, taking shock prevents taking 4a for extra damage. Furthermore, only taking it to 4 prevents taking 5b for AP ammo, doubling your damage. Furthermore, shock is a close-range weapon, meaning it will be sent close to enemies, meaning it will be destroyed more rapidly. For a crapload of reasons, your turret is just going to do crap damage. Not to mention no power damage bonuses. Furthermore, even if you did actually take AP ammo, your turrets DPS would still be massively less, something like 3/5ths mine at best. Given that most of the time it will be shocking instead of firing, most likely significantly less, if anything at all. 

THAT is why I said 300 damage/3 seconds; because that's the damage shock does.

8) Very well. I will concede that, given we make up all our numbers, your build does more damage than mine. If we actually use REAL numbers, however, mine remains just as good as before, while yours continues to be terrible.

Finally) You seem to be obsessed with the idea that a good player with a claymore can outdo anyone with a power based build. That's completely ridiculous. Even good players must rely on the raw statistics to play the game. Given two players of equal skill, a claymore player will ALWAYS do worse than a talon+power build, because in a level playing field, all that matters is the statistics.

Good day, sir.


 

[Miniditka77]

I can see the logic there, but if your only draw to the class is cryo blast, why not use a different class that has it, as well as other things that compliment the weapon? Human Infiltrator, for example. From a gameplay perspective, it would be functionally identical, except with way more damage and utility. The only thing you'd lose is the turret which everyone who takes a claymore build says sucks anyway. So why bother?

 

Well first, I never said the QFE was the only class it worked for.  Claymore HI is a popular combo too.  By your logic, why use any non-infiltrator class if you have a good weapon, because you can just use an Infiltrator and do more damage?

 

Also, HI would not be functionally identical.  The QFE can use Incinerate too, especially if you're using Incendiary or Disruptor Ammo for Tech Explosions.  And nobody said you can't take the turret either - I think 4/6/6/6/4 is the best QFE build for pretty much any weapon.

 

EDIT:  I'll agree with you on one thing though - If I'm using the Claymore, I would take Duration on Cryo Blast.  I don't find that Area does much with a slow-firing weapon, because you can't kill that many enemies in a short duration anyway.  The exception is on the HI, because I'm Cryo Blasting every cloak cycle anyway. 

[Caineghis2500]

lol

[DemiserofD]

Well first, I never said the QFE was the only class it worked for.  Claymore HI is a popular combo too.  By your logic, why use any non-infiltrator class if you have a good weapon, because you can just use an Infiltrator and do more damage?

 

Also, HI would not be functionally identical.  The QFE can use Incinerate too, especially if you're using Incendiary or Disruptor Ammo for Tech Explosions.  And nobody said you can't take the turret either - I think 4/6/6/6/4 is the best QFE build for pretty much any weapon.

 

EDIT:  I'll agree with you on one thing though - If I'm using the Claymore, I would take Duration on Cryo Blast.  I don't find that Area does much with a slow-firing weapon, because you can't kill that many enemies in a short duration anyway.  The exception is on the HI, because I'm Cryo Blasting every cloak cycle anyway. 

I guess the way I see it, characters that play alike are alike. I can understand playing, say, a volus with a batarian gauntlet, because even if it's not as good as another character, it's very different. But If you've got a choice between two characters that you're going to use just cryo and claymore on, then to me they're basically identical. And if you have two identical classes, why use the worse one?  Though I suppose you could be playing for the quarian hop, that's different.

I do understand that though. If you want to play that way for diversity's sake, I fully agree with you. Just don't go saying that it's the best way to play the class. That would be silly.

[Kenny Bania]

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

FTFY

[Aetika]

2) That's a good point, but even then, against large targets you will be casting incinerate multiple times(or, at least, you should be), stacking your DPS and getting the vast majority of it back. Maybe not 100%, but if you are familiar with DoT's, there's no reason you can't move on once a target is damaged enough to die from it. Your inability to utilize DoT damage to its fullest potential does not mean it doesn't exist.
 

 

The question really is, why would you leave enemy alive for 8 seconds when it can be killed and dismissed faster. Especially big boss units, Atlas, Prime, Scion and perhaps Pyro to certain degree. Those targets won´t be disabled, They will shoot you while you are moving on to next target, even when fire damage is eating them away. I usually rely on dot when dealing with mooks, since those health based will be panicked and others will have only few bars left so they die fast enough to be safely left behind.

[Salarian Master Race]

...an ultra rear IMO...

 

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

Liked for the filename

[DemiserofD]

The question really is, why would you leave enemy alive for 8 seconds when it can be killed and dismissed faster. Especially big boss units, Atlas, Prime, Scion and perhaps Pyro to certain degree. Those targets won´t be disabled, They will shoot you while you are moving on to next target, even when fire damage is eating them away. I usually rely on dot when dealing with mooks, since those health based will be panicked and others will have only few bars left so they die fast enough to be safely left behind.

 

You wouldn't necessarily, but because large enemies will almost always have multiple incinerates cast on them, the net loss of DPS becomes significantly less. If you cast four incinerates to kill something, for example, by the time it dies, the first three will have exhausted a significant portion of their damage, and the fourth most likely at least some of it. Alternatively, you could cast Cryo Blast again and keep firing, which would get even better efficiency out of them while maintaining your weapon DPS.

You'll never have 100% efficiency, but you can get close. And against smaller targets that are sent into a flail stagger by the fire effect, having a target that's going to die shortly but not right now can actually make the game quite a bit easier, as you now have only seven possible targets shooting at you.

[Shampoohorn]

Your arguments would have been much prettier in 2012, but this is like watching two old people trying to **** like teens. Enough dusty talk. You, go play four Claymore games, and you go play four with the Talon build. Fun will have been had. Differences will have been less than what has been stridently proclaimed.

N7 >>>>> BSN7

[PopcornMasterRace]

You wouldn't necessarily, but because large enemies will almost always have multiple incinerates cast on them, the net loss of DPS becomes significantly less. If you cast four incinerates to kill something, for example, by the time it dies, the first three will have exhausted a significant portion of their damage, and the fourth most likely at least some of it. Alternatively, you could cast Cryo Blast again and keep firing, which would get even better efficiency out of them while maintaining your weapon DPS.

You'll never have 100% efficiency, but you can get close. And against smaller targets that are sent into a flail stagger by the fire effect, having a target that's going to die shortly but not right now can actually make the game quite a bit easier, as you now have only seven possible targets shooting at you.

Seriously 4 incinerate? I dont have time for that because 4 other mooks are driving me into soft cover or killing them might allow me to toss another incinerate at a boss because its already dead from my other team mates pounding it. You must only do solos for your all your math to work, because in gold a boss dies before your precious incinerate CD can let you do it again. I mean cmon with a good team an Atlas dies in maybe 2-3s, other Bosses maybe another 5-6sec

 

Your arguments dont match what happens in gold or platinum. Why? because nobody gives a damn about a .8 decimal difference and whether or not its the most freaking god almighty best evah in ANY kit as long as the TEAM is killing things in a timely manner, and gets extraction.

[Salarian Master Race]