Fine, I'll reply to you on a point-by-point basis, so it's easier to understand.
1) That's perfectly true. And the Talon is superior in every way. Not only does it have comparative DPS to the claymore(slightly less, but who's counting), but it has a 1.5x damage modifier versus shields and barriers, making it almost 50% BETTER than the claymore in that circumstance. And after the barriers are eliminated, a single incinerate on the already cryo-blasted target will kill every mook in the game. The ONLY enemy this build has troubles with is phantoms, and that's because of lolDR. Otherwise the talon is comparable or better in every respect.
2) That's a good point, but even then, against large targets you will be casting incinerate multiple times(or, at least, you should be), stacking your DPS and getting the vast majority of it back. Maybe not 100%, but if you are familiar with DoT's, there's no reason you can't move on once a target is damaged enough to die from it. Your inability to utilize DoT damage to its fullest potential does not mean it doesn't exist.
3) Since we're talking about Gold+, yeah, armor. Armor is the vast majority of the game here. Furthermore, there is exactly one armored target with a 2.5x headshot modifier, and that's the Dragoon. For everything else, headshots with a claymore are such ridiculous overkill I wonder why you'd even bother mentioning it? Sure, it might be DPS, but doing 3000 more damage than they have health doesn't count for anything ingame or out. Against every other mook enemy, one talon shot+one incinerate will kill them, so there's functionally no difference.
Furthermore, how are you extrapolating that DPS? I calculated it by dividing the damage per shot of a basic claymore by it's reload canceled max sustained DPS as provided by this chart. That gave me the maximum fire rate of the claymore, which I then divided the maximum damage per shot by. In your circumstance, 4462 damage per shot translates to 2208.16 DPS, actually lower than my figures, but in my calculations I also used the shotgun damage gear. If we want to be fully correct, we should reduce the damage I posted by 300. I was being equally generous everywhere, but if you really want to be insistent on these things we can do that. You will lose.
Please, I really want to emphasize this; Your entire argument is based on DPS numbers that are wrong! If you can't even bother to get your statistics right, I don't know why I should bother!
4) (firstly, I removed weight increasing items from both weapons, as realistically speaking, we'd glitch their weight away anyway. This should balance the builds, as both use +50% weight items. I still use the weight items for damage calculations, however. Moving on.)
Your build and my build operate on different times because of the cooldowns inherent to the builds. Your Cryo Blast has a cooldown of 2.7 seconds, and your incinerate has a cooldown of 4.32 seconds, totaling to 7.02 seconds. Given that you took area effect instead of duration, you will launch your first incinerate midway through its duration, and will not be able to launch a second one until 1.42 seconds after the duration has expired. Even accounting for travel times and approaching enemies, that's far too long to allow you to get a second incinerate in on weakened enemies.
On my build, I took duration and have much shorter cooldowns. (The build you posted is actually exactly mine. Not sure if you made it yourself or looked it up where I posted it earlier in the thread. Either way, bravo). In any case, We have cryo blast, with a cooldown of 1.48 seconds, followed by as many incinerates as can be squeezed into an 8 second debuff period, each with a cooldown of 2.37 seconds, totaling to 8.59 seconds. Given that, typically, enemies start out far away and approach you, thus decreasing travel times of your powers, it isn't unreasonable to expect to gain .6 seconds just from enemy distance. Therefore, 3 incinerates per cast of cryo blast. On the other hand, it's completely unrealistic to expect to cancel nearly 1.5 seconds in any consistent manner.
5) Once again, the damage stated is not DPS, but damage per shot. Also again, you're not accounting for barrier/shield damage(though I didn't do that either since I was focusing mainly on armor, so whatever). That I rounded the figures is an acceptable criticism, I suppose. However, you should also remember that in many circumstances the talon will not need to reload directly during combat, while the claymore always will, giving a significant mid-combat DPS bonus. Either way, I feel my numbers are not significantly incorrect enough to bother worrying about. If you must, revise it down by 50 DPS or something. It doesn't really make that much difference.
6) See 4.
7) My turret does 650 DPS because mine is built for damage and yours is built as a distraction. Firstly, it was previously stated that the skill would be taken to rank 4, shock. Shock does minimal damage. Furthermore, taking shock prevents taking 4a for extra damage. Furthermore, only taking it to 4 prevents taking 5b for AP ammo, doubling your damage. Furthermore, shock is a close-range weapon, meaning it will be sent close to enemies, meaning it will be destroyed more rapidly. For a crapload of reasons, your turret is just going to do crap damage. Not to mention no power damage bonuses. Furthermore, even if you did actually take AP ammo, your turrets DPS would still be massively less, something like 3/5ths mine at best. Given that most of the time it will be shocking instead of firing, most likely significantly less, if anything at all.
THAT is why I said 300 damage/3 seconds; because that's the damage shock does.
8) Very well. I will concede that, given we make up all our numbers, your build does more damage than mine. If we actually use REAL numbers, however, mine remains just as good as before, while yours continues to be terrible.
Finally) You seem to be obsessed with the idea that a good player with a claymore can outdo anyone with a power based build. That's completely ridiculous. Even good players must rely on the raw statistics to play the game. Given two players of equal skill, a claymore player will ALWAYS do worse than a talon+power build, because in a level playing field, all that matters is the statistics.
Good day, sir.
1) As expected, you didn't even get what I meant. But fine, let's see what you brought up.
Shields/barriers? Lol, that wasn't really smart of yours, since your build loses 66% dps from power damage against shield/barriers, which ends up as a significant decrease in your overall dps, despite the 1.5 multiplier of your (broken) gun.
Comparable dps? Slightly less, but who's counting? Lol, certainly not you, since you clearly have some problems with math (see below). But for normal people, a 20% increase in damage isn't something to dismiss with "who's counting". Because that's right, 833 (claymore's dps) - 695 (talon's) / 695 means a 20% increase to dps. Now, I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't look down at a 20% discount when they're buying stuff. Heck, I'm pretty sure even you wouldn't do that! ... Am I wrong?
And a single incinerate after you break their shields is gonna kill any mook in the game? Sure... With the dot! So in a varying amount of time from one to 5-6 secs. On the other hand, you know what a claymore headshot does to a mook? It kills it. Outright. No need to wait for a loldot. You mentioned you have problems with Phantoms? Oh, you know what takes care of that very easily? A claymore headshot from up close while they're staggered from the turret. Oh but wait, you wouldn't know that, cause you don't spec into shock, right? You're a straight dps guy, no silly things like CC for you. If you don't reach the maximum number you computed (in a wrong way, I might add) on your little screen you're not gonna be satisfied, uh? Well, guess what, you'll have to find a way to deal with Phantoms then.
Now, I believe I have finished your arguments on this point, so let me bring back all the ones I mentioned in my other post which you very smartly skirted, as you likely didn't know how to answer. It's likely not the first time you do this, judging from your posts, and it's certainly not the last: see point 7) below. But, since you started mentioning other situations in which things might be different than what we were talking about (shields and all), I guess I'd mention others as well. Just as a reminder that all the computation which I did in the previous post and I'm gonna redo in this one are based on the best possible assumptions and situations for you. And that means that you're fighting specifically one (or two at most...) enemies. Against all the other ones, the Claymore is simply miles ahead.
So, let's start with: headshot multiplier! Against both Dragoons and Pyros (see below), headshot multiplier is gonna be 2.5X, which is gonna increase guns' dps by uh-ho, 66%!!! Against Praetorians, it's 2.0X, which is gonna increase guns' dps by uh-ho, 36%!!! That is, if you can get headshots... And I'm hoping you can at least do that. So yeah, a multiplicative bonus to guns' dps, basically. And guess who's got the biggest gun, the biggest gun dps, and is gonna benefit more from that, so that it pulls away even more on the poor little talon? You guessed right, the Claymore.
Then we go on with: multi-hit glitches! Because that is basically a X2, 3, 4, or whatever overall multiplier to guns' dps. And, once again, guess who's got the biggest gun? Right, the one wielding the Claymore. This accounts for Ravagers, Atlases, Scions (somewhat), Banshees (also see point below).
And, last but not the least, power blocking auras!!! Yay! This wonderful Bioware's invention. Which is gonna turn your overall power dps to... Maybe 33% of what it is against other enemies... And that's if you're smart and don't play with dumb people. And guess which is the build that relies more on powers? Yeah you got it, it's the one without the Claymore. This accounts for Banshees and Praetorians. Also bees, but let's discount them as you can avoid them.
Soooo... With these small arguments that you, conveniently, completely ignored, and considering that I'm gonna show you that even in the case I explored in my previous post and that I took as a base in these arguments, the Claymore build's dps is slightly superior... You can effectively conclude that the two setups' dps is:
Comparable against Geth Primes, maybe Brutes although those sons of biatches are hard as hell to figure out.
The Claymore's one is much higher against Dragoons, Pyros, Praetorians, Scions (somewhat), Atlases, Ravagers and Banshees.
And that accounts for all the armor-based enemies in the game.
2) Uhm... Let me guess. You've never really played with a full team of good players, have you? Cause otherwise you'd know why dots suck. Simple as that. Why? Because things are gonna die WAY before the entire 8 secs dot gets applied. More like, 2 secs, 3 tops. And that's if it's not the end of the wave (which, incidentally, should be if you're firing on bosses... If you know how to play good and quick), cause if it's the end of the wave not even bosses are gonna last that long. 2 secs tops, since all player are focusing fire. "But hey, I'm gonna find a spawn, apply my dots, and then move on to another and let them die there". Sure, but here comes player B, that being a good player stumbles upon your spawn just right after you left, and proceeds to coldly put it all down in 3-4 secs. And rightly so. Because he wants to have the fastest possible game. And applying dots simply can't provide that.
At the very very least, relying on incinerate dots to get the kill will increase your time by 8 secs per wave. And that means 80 secs per game, or 1 minute and 20 secs. At the very, very least. So no, it's not that I am unable to utilize dots to their full potentials, it's that I actually want things dead right now because I want the fastest game possible. And I am going to get the fastest game I can, because I've got a goddamned Claymore in hand!
3) Apart from the fact that, last time I checked, the Pyro has a headshot multiplier of 2.5X too. Is it not so? Beside that, I'm mentioning this simply cause I'd like to make clear what kind of situation we are talking about. While you, apparently, seem to be under the impression that there is always only one situation in the game, the ideal, perfect one, in which dps is actually something that matters. You're wrong, as in with all the other things. Let me ask you this, for example.
At what range are you capable of getting OHKs with a Talon? Or even kills with just one shot + incinerate? I'll answer for you: a few meters. How far away can you do the same with a Claymore? About twice as far, probably. Why? Exactly thanks to what you dubbed "overkill". Which is indeed overkill at close range, but it becomes vital when you're not in the enemies' face. Which, by the way, you're gonna have a hard time being in, since you don't even use an adrenaline module (while I do). That's just one of the things I meant when I said that you overestimate the importance of DPS, since it doesn't take things like this into account.
Now, let's get over the DPS calculations, shall we? Since, apparently, you're not only incapable of performing the simplest mathematical operations, but you also dare to claim that *I* am making stuff up, I'm gonna treat you like the child you are and show you how to do it step by step. I'm also gonna indicate them by letter, so that you don't get confused by numbers refering to different things.
Step A: locate, in the chart you provided, the box named "Multi Clip DPS level X (reload cancel)", and find the one relative to the weapon you need. In our case, the Claymore. As you see, you don't need to go and compute the damage per shot and divide by the RoF, as that kind guy named Cyonan already did it for us. The value is 833,38. We're gonna work with this value as there are no mechanics that aren't multiplicative to dps and whose effect actually depends from the damage per shot. Apart from armor damage mitigation, but that effect is gonna be pretty low for this build, and it will be accounted for later.
Step B: compute the total additive bonus you get from skills/equipment. Shotgun amp: 30%. Shotgun high velocity barrel: 25%. Passives in case of a headshot: 35%, because I actually take the headshot bonus while you don't. Total: 35+25+30 = 90% additive bonus.
Step C: compute the multiplicative bonus, which consists of headshot bonus + debuff from CB, and so it is 0.4 + 0.25 = 0.65.
Step D: compute the dps of the gun itself. I understand this might start to be confusing for you. In that case, read here. What we're gonna do is: base_DPS * (1 + sum_additive_bonus) * ( 1 + multiplicative_bonus), since no other effects are in place for this specific situation. The result is 833.38 * (1 + 0.9) * (1 + 0.65) = 2612.65.
Step E: compute the dps coming from ammo. Don't worry, it's not that hard. You just need to multiply the base dps by 0.5 because of incendiary ammo IV, then multiply by 1 + the debuff bonus for CB, which is 1.25. So you have
833.38 * 0.5 * 1.25 = 520.86. Note that this would be a good calculation if incendiary ammo wasn't glitched. As it is, instead, the actual dps you're getting from the ammo is a lot higher than this, probably by a factor of 2-3. Which is obviously going to favor the Claymore build, since my incendiary ammo does more dps. But again, I have computed everything under the best possible assumptions for your build, to show you that even under those perfect circumstances you're still losing the dps race. It is also very hard to compute the IA damage exactly, so we're gonna stick to the theoretical dps.
Step F: add the dps from the gun to the dps from the ammo. 2612.65 + 520.86 = 3133,5.
Step G: compute the armor damage mitigation thing. Now, I'm not totally sure if the CB debuff is considered piercing or weakening, although I'm leaning towards weakening. If it's piercing, then the dps loss is 0. If it's weakening, then each pellet is gonna lose a damage of 50 * (1 - 0.65) * (1 - 0.5) = 8.75. Which means that every shot is losing 8.75 * 8 = 70 damage. Multiplying by the effective RoF of about 0.5, you get a dps loss of 70 * 0.5 = 35. Which, finally, brings the total dps figure to
3133.5 - 35 = 3098.5, which is 1.5 short of the 3100 figure I provided earlier. Since I wasn't sure if the CB debuff is considered weakening or piercing, and I knew the effect was small anyway, I decided not to waste time computing it and to instead round it to 3100. This time I chose to do the proper computation, and I'd say that my approximation was very well done after all.
Step H: realize that you failed to do computations which should have been thought to you when you were about 10 years old (at least it's like that here). Realize that maybe it's time to go back on the primary school books and study how additions and multiplications work. Realize that despite your obvious mathematical inability you still made claims about my numbers being wrong while the only wrong numbers are yours. Finally, realize that despite your claims, the only person making stuff up in this thread IS YOU.
4) Yes, I also operated under the assumption that we'd be glitching the weight. And yes, you are right in that I usually choose radius in CB and that therefore the second incinerate wouldn't get the benefit of CB. However, since we are comparing builds in the dps department, and since that department doesn't account (OH, SNAP!) for the additional CC and debuff etc provided by radius, I think it's only fair that we consider taking duration for what concerns the dps calculations. However, I'm going with the assumption that you'll object to that (lol), so I'm going to compute the dps without considering CB in the second incinerate.
The result is roughly 634 dps, instead of 700. However, you should notice that this calculation is somewhat weird, since you chose to use dps and confine things to the duration of your liking (precisely 8.59 secs), which is making calculations of builds that have another cycle duration... Weird. However, depending on how you want to exactly define what we're computing, the dps calculation I just did is only gonna vary by 50 at most, while the ones for your build might vary a lot more, for the worst. If you just consider the damage done in 8.59 secs only and divide by 8.59, which would be the smartest thing to do in my opinion, the figure for my build goes down to 586. Also, I hope I do not need to repeat the computation I did for the weapon above, as I find it draining to show how simple multiplications and additions work.
Also, let me notice that yes, it is actually completely unreasonable to expect enemies to grow closer and to gain that 0.6 secs you need to squeeze the last incinerate into CB's duration. It is unreasonable simply because we're making calculations of dps assuming perfect circumstances and that all pellets hit, and that requires the enemy to be close from the first shot through all the encounter. So you're gonna lose the CB debuff on the last incinerate, too.
Also, I do not understand what you mean with that last sentence. Expect to cancel what? I'm starting to think you should go back to primary school when it comes to written expression too. I mean, I'm not a native speaker, but at least my phrasing, while not technically correct at times, has always got a logical sense.
Also, lol at guessing your exact build. You know why that happened? Because smart people can act dumb, but dumb people can't act smart.
5) Once again? What are you talking about? It's the first time you say this. And again, what are you talking about, exactly? Subject, please? See a few lines above... Did you mean the damage figures I provided is damage per shot? Cause if you did, it's not. Did you mean the damage figures you provided are damage per shot? Cause if you did, then you're wrong, you clearly stated DPS and that is far from being the damage per shot. Did you mean the damage figures kalence provides are damage per shot? Cause if you did then yeah, you're right, except that noone ever used those (I hope? Did you? It would explain the problems with math you were showing...).
I am not accounting for shield/barriers firstly cause you seemed to be anxious to talk about armor... And rightly so. Because your build loses something like 66% power damage against shield/barriers. And not even the multiplier of your (again, broken) gun is gonna make up for that, and as a result your dps drops against shield/barriers. That's why I didn't mention it, because I'm being nice and I'm computing things under the best possible assumptions for you, even though you seem not to understand that. At least, you didn't reply to that.
Also, what are you talking about with the reloads? The dps provided by the chart you and I used already accounts for the reload necessity. We are imagining an encounter 8 seconds long, which means we're well in the sustained dps realm for both guns and we just gotta use the multi-clip dps and forget about reloads almost entirely. That is, again, because it is a good situation for your build, because the shorter the encounter gets the more rotflwtftrumped your build gets. Finally, if you wanted to imply that you don't need to reload the talon at least once during 8.59 secs, then what can I say... Lol? Especially since you don't even take the extended clip, lol.
I hope I do not need to repeat the dps calculations for this again... Do I?
6) Alright, let's make things clear here and define dps as the damage you do in 8.59 s (because that is the duration of your choice, and actually the most beneficial to your build) divided by those 8.59 secs. If we do it this way, let's compute the dps you do with your powers.
CB does 0.
First incinerate has got 8.59 - 1.48 = 7.11 secs to apply the dot. So its damage is gonna be 1776 * 2 (rank 6) * 0.75 = 2664 on hit. DoT is gonna do 7.11/8 = 89% of that damage, for 2367. So the first incinerate does a total of 2367 + 2664 = 5031 damage.
Second incinerate has got 8.59 - 1.48 - 2.37 = 4.74 secs to apply the dot. So its damage is gonna be 1776 * 2 (rank 6) * 0.75 = 2664 on hit. DoT is gonna do 4.74 / 8 = 59% of that damage, for 1578. So the second incinerate does a total of 1578 + 2664 = 4242 damage.
Third incinerate has got 8.59 - 1.48 - 2.37 - 2.37 = 2,37 secs to apply the dot. So its damage is gonna be 1421 * 0.75 = 1066 on hit. Remember that you don't get the CB debuff nor the rank 6 evo bonus for this one. DoT is gonna do 2.37 / 8.59 = 28% of that damage, for 294. So the third incinerate does a total of 294 + 1066 = 1360 damage.
So, total damage caused by your powers over 8.59 secs: 5031 + 4242 + 1360 = 10633.
Total dps caused by your damage in the estabilished 8.59 secs window: 10633 / 8.59 = 1238.
I think this is the most intelligent way to precisely define dps, as otherwise it gets very vague. If you disagree, though, feel free to enlighten us with your point of view on the subject. For most (intelligent) definitions of dps, the difference is gonna be at best (for you) 900 dps, like in my above post. Otherwise it's gonna be just better for the claymore build. And, most importantly, define dps exactly, so that I can show you exactly how wrong you are, again.
7) Ah, I take pleasure in noting that, despite your claim to reply on a point-by-point basis, you magically turned point 8) into 7), thereby completely ignoring my point 7). Once again, how convenient. More like a point-I-like basis, or a point-I-(think I)-know-how-to-answer basis. Because freely tripling your FE dps is such a small thing that can be overlooked and you can afford not to answer once you get called out on that, uh?
8), which is actually what you called 7). What the fuck? So you assumed my build would only take the turret to rank 4? Well, I guess you can now go and re-read the end of point 4) of this post. I spec for AP and rockets. So your assumption crumbles.
But let's assume for a moment that I did only take it to 4. You assume I'm going to use it for distraction while you use it for DPS and therefore you can count the full DPS of it while I basically get 0? Again, what the fuck? Obviously if I use it for distraction or not is my own decision and I (unlike you who don't spec shock which is *the only* reason that makes the turret worthwhile to spec into, kind of... I can only lol at that, really) can actually take that decision on a case-by-case basis. And if I choose to use it as a distraction, it is because it will enable me to be out of cover more, fire more without dieing, and therefore will significantly increase my damage output and, guess what, my dps. Obviously the mere dps figures are not (OH, SNAP!) going to take that in consideration, so I think it's only fair that you suppose I'd use it just in the same way you would, throw it away and let it only shoot things. Because you know that when it's away from the enemies the shock evolution doesn't trigger, right? I hope so.
So, under these assumptions, you state that my turret's dps would be about 3/5ths of yours. And you are pretty much correct. I'd just like to ask one question: how on Earth is 60 the 3/5ths of 650? Cause, in the math I know, 650 * 3 / 5 = 390, not 60. Do you even know what an order of magnidute is? You seem not to have even the most basic general idea of numbers and how big they are in comparison to one another. You wouldn't reach a factor of difference of 11 even if my turret was specced only up to 4 and only spammed shock, and since it's not, you're not even gonna reach a factor of 2.
So, if your turret's dps is 650 as you claim (a claim that should be supported by evidence, by the way... Why do I have to demonstrate my claims while you get to make them freely, exactly? And then I'm the one who's "making stuff up". Sure.). As I was saying, if your turret's dps is 650 then mine is gonna be 650 * 3 / 5 = 390, thank you very much.
9), which is actually what you called 8). I'll use this point to compute the results, first.
Claymore: 3098.5 + 586 + 390 = 4074.5 dps
Talon: 1900 + 1238 + 135 + 650 = 3923 dps
Now, I understand your difficulties with mathematics, but I hope at school they at least managed to teach you how to recognize which is the biggest number between two. (Hint: it's either the one with more numbers or the one with the biggest numbers on the left).
I hope that, by now, it is clear, both to you and anyone reading, that you're the only one making stuff up.
L2math, l2p, and gobacktoprimaryschool.
Oh, and this one, I felt earned a special place and deserved to be quoted again, just because of its sheer hilarity factor:
Given two players of equal skill, a claymore player will ALWAYS do worse than a talon+power build, because in a level playing field, all that matters is the statistics.
Like, seriously, anyone with half a brain working will see this, and understand right away that you don't have even that half.
Do you seriously believe that dps is the single thing that determines the course of a game if the players' skill level is even? Like... Wow, I'm having a hard time not bursting in laugh in front of my keyboard now. I...
Nah, on second thought, I'm not gonna get into that. It would be like trying to teach a sheep how to speak. I mean, maybe someone will pull that shit off once in humankind's history, but it's not gonna be me.
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