159 réponses à ce sujet

[TormDK]

What's wrong with percentages?

 

Nothing, if you are OK with getting 2x or 3x the guard amount as the max guard pool goes up as a result of St. Bluke's possible changes.

[Felis Menari]

Nothing, if you are OK with getting 2x or 3x the guard amount as the max guard pool goes up as a result of St. Bluke's possible changes.

That would be the idea, me thinks. Luke himself has stated himself that he wishes to find some semblance of balance between guard and barrier, and putting out a half-assed buff to guard would not achieve that.

[Dragkonias]

I would love a guard rebalance.

 

So depressing to see a full guard meter damn near depleted by a single footsoldier sword swipe. 

[TormDK]

That would be the idea, me thinks. Luke himself has stated himself that he wishes to find some semblance of balance between guard and barrier, and putting out a half-assed buff to guard would not achieve that.

 

I suppose I have no problem with a larger guard pool. It's just that I already feel I have enough guard on my Templar for running a Bodyguard build on Perilous as it is now...

 

I can only imagine the sheer silliness that is 100+ Constitution from promotions, on top of a supposed buff to Guard.

[yarpenthemad21]

Nothing, if you are OK with getting 2x or 3x the guard amount as the max guard pool goes up as a result of St. Bluke's possible changes.

Why not.
For now I have 4068 barrier on my mages as base. Only armor is ignored on barrier so all other damage reduction works.
My templar has something around 1,1k hp. Guard is 25% of health. Let it have 300 even guard.
Aren't 300 and 4k on other side of the planet pretty much?
Damage vs barrier isn't even that high because in general our armor is low. It's like 400 damage to barrier or 330 to health/guard.
Because of that barrier can survive ten hits, guard has problem with one.
Even if you take 2 tank classes with shield and passives, they max armor front is around 130 from what I remeber and aside from promotions defense they have flat 20% on for everything, 50% for ranged.
So you can reduce this "typical" 400 damage to barrier to maybe 200 or even 150. Still your guard is for 2 shots, barrier still for ten.


We need either armor bonus, more guard or something similar.

[AwesomeBabyLion]

@yarpenthemad21 - I agree fully.

 

It is odd when "tanks" become more "squishy" then mages. You go Arcane Warrior for survivability, not Legionnaire? Very off. I solid buff to Guard would be more then welcomed.

[Felis Menari]

@yarpenthemad21 - I agree fully.

 

It is odd when "tanks" become more "squishy" then mages. You go Arcane Warrior for survivability, not Legionnaire? Very off. I solid buff to Guard would be more then welcomed.

It's not just the AW. Any mage that can generate barriers tends to perform better than warriors that depend on guard for survivability, from what I've seen in in DAMP matches.

[BansheeOwnage]

I don't think Barrier should be nerfed. I think it has to be significantly more protective than Guard because it depletes. The advantage of Guard is that it doesn't deplete, but is weaker, and vice versa. That said, I think Guard could certainly use a buff, but nerfing Barrier won't help anything.

[TormDK]

Why not.
For now I have 4068 barrier on my mages as base. Only armor is ignored on barrier so all other damage reduction works.
My templar has something around 1,1k hp. Guard is 25% of health. Let it have 300 even guard.
Aren't 300 and 4k on other side of the planet pretty much?
Damage vs barrier isn't even that high because in general our armor is low. It's like 400 damage to barrier or 330 to health/guard.
Because of that barrier can survive ten hits, guard has problem with one.
Even if you take 2 tank classes with shield and passives, they max armor front is around 130 from what I remeber and aside from promotions defense they have flat 20% on for everything, 50% for ranged.
So you can reduce this "typical" 400 damage to barrier to maybe 200 or even 150. Still your guard is for 2 shots, barrier still for ten.


We need either armor bonus, more guard or something similar.

 

Yes, if you do not count the passives, I suppose I could agree with your numbers.

 

However, given that both "tanks" can get +50% guard from two talents, that Unbowed was recently buffed to be a 12 second cycle, that both tanks can get +20% armour (Legionnaire can for some reason get an additional 20% that Templars cannot) and that Shieldwall nullifies attacks completely at the cost of stamina, I think just buffing our max capacity for Guard is not the right way to approach the problem, especially not when regaining guard is also a percentage, as it will create "double dipping". 

[BansheeOwnage]

 

However, given that both "tanks" can get +50% guard from two talents

Last I checked the passives that gave extra max Guard were bugged to actually increase armour when you have active Guard. I don't think this has been fixed.

[Theghostof_timmy]

I don't think Barrier should be nerfed. I think it has to be significantly more protective than Guard because it depletes. The advantage of Guard is that it doesn't deplete, but is weaker, and vice versa. That said, I think Guard could certainly use a buff, but nerfing Barrier won't help anything.

Barrier is also way easier to get. You can maintain a constant barrier without actually fighting anything with the keeper/elementalist.

[Felis Menari]

I don't think Barrier should be nerfed. I think it has to be significantly more protective than Guard because it depletes. The advantage of Guard is that it doesn't deplete, but is weaker, and vice versa. That said, I think Guard could certainly use a buff, but nerfing Barrier won't help anything.

That's how I feel on the matter as well, but Luke has expressed intentions of nerfing barrier durability by 20-30%, which is unfortunate. As you said, barriers should provide better protection than guard, since they have a finite duration.

[yarpenthemad21]

Yes, if you do not count the passives, I suppose I could agree with your numbers.
 
However, given that both "tanks" can get +50% guard from two talents, that Unbowed was recently buffed to be a 12 second cycle, that both tanks can get +20% armour (Legionnaire can for some reason get an additional 20% that Templars cannot) and that Shieldwall nullifies attacks completely at the cost of stamina, I think just buffing our max capacity for Guard is not the right way to approach the problem, especially not when regaining guard is also a percentage, as it will create "double dipping".

This armor on perilous does not matter. Calculate your max armor and you will see that it's around twice as high as some random rogue class.
I'm more on the idea to buff armor when guard is active, buffing amount of it does not change that much. 1 hit more to soak on guard won't make that difference.

I would say that templar and lego need huge and massive buffs. Lego outside of threatening where he wrecks with lunge and slash has no point. Any other class would deal more damage and has even better CC tools, he can't even tank that much on perilous.
Templar is a one skill pony with wombo combo and that's it. You need special game play for her and still it's just a "dps" and even dps which does not work on everything. Even stupid baby dragons.

[Dragkonias]

Also...I think calculating these stats for 100 constitution and such is silly.

 

Average player isn't going to get even half of that.

[BansheeOwnage]

That's how I feel on the matter as well, but Luke has expressed intentions of nerfing barrier durability by 20-30%, which is unfortunate. As you said, barriers should provide better protection than guard, since they have a finite duration.

I agree. I'm kind of jealous of the Rage Demons, Calpernia... all the enemies have non-depleting Barriers! It's like they're way better at magic than us and is mildly lore-breaking. I think I would prefer a weaker non-depleting Barrier.

[TheThirdRace]

Why Guard should be inferior to Barrier? Wouldn't it be more fair to have both using different mechanics but achieve the same result?

Yes, Barrier depletes. It also does so at a rate it's easy to keep it up permanently. It negates over 4000 damage and it's renewed to full in less than 10 seconds... How is not overpowered?

On the other hand, Guard doesn't depletes. It also melt from any hit on Perilous which makes keeping it up almost impossible. It negates between 250 to 750 damage with all upgrades (+50% max Guard) and you can't generate much of it every 10 seconds. How is not underpowered?

I think what St.BLuke suggested is pretty fair. Nerfing Barrier by 20 to 30% will still negate between 2800 and 3200 damage, it's hardly a catastrophe especially since you can fully renew it every 10 seconds. Doubling Guard will negate at most 1500 damage with no way to regenerate it easily every 10 seconds. So even with a very generous buff to Guard and a slight nerf to Barrier, Barrier will still negate about twice as much damage. And people are still saying Guard is good as it is?

[TormDK]

Why Guard should be inferior to Barrier? Wouldn't it be more fair to have both using different mechanics but achieve the same result?

Yes, Barrier depletes. It also does so at a rate it's easy to keep it up permanently. It negates over 4000 damage and it's renewed to full in less than 10 seconds... How is not overpowered?

On the other hand, Guard doesn't depletes. It also melt from any hit on Perilous which makes keeping it up almost impossible. It negates between 250 to 750 damage with all upgrades (+50% max Guard) and you can't generate much of it every 10 seconds. How is not underpowered?

I think what St.BLuke suggested is pretty fair. Nerfing Barrier by 20 to 30% will still negate between 2800 and 3200 damage, it's hardly a catastrophe especially since you can fully renew it every 10 seconds. Doubling Guard will negate at most 1500 damage with no way to regenerate it easily every 10 seconds. So even with a very generous buff to Guard and a slight nerf to Barrier, Barrier will still negate about twice as much damage. And people are still saying Guard is good as it is?

 

Unbowed is on a 8 or 12 second recycle timer now, Sheldwall gives easy access to Guard on demand, Warcry generates it on use as does Counterstrike.

 

It's not in as bad a spot as you claim to be, especially with promotions.

 

I would wager that Guard in it's current form is not that different from the Elusive coin system that Isabella is using from a defensive perspective. It's easily replenished and absorbs enough to keep your health bar full.

[Dragkonias]

Also, I would like a buff to guard because I think it would allow a bit more leeway with Legionnaire and Templar builds.

 

Also, I kind of think the guard shield wall generates against low level enemies should be buffed.

 

From the looks of it...its like 5 percent of the guard meter, which is basically nothing.

[yarpenthemad21]

Unbowed is on a 8 or 12 second recycle timer now, Sheldwall gives easy access to Guard on demand, Warcry generates it on use as does Counterstrike.
 
It's not in as bad a spot as you claim to be, especially with promotions.
 
I would wager that Guard in it's current form is not that different from the Elusive coin system that Isabella is using from a defensive perspective. It's easily replenished and absorbs enough to keep your health bar full.

Show me perilous video in which you can maintain guard on lego or templar. Shield wall needs full stamina to get full guard, warcry and unbowed need 5 enemies to get full guard, Countestrike need 65 stamina and has looooong cooldown.
5 enemies in melee rang for full guard, when 3 at most hits remove this guards.

[Dragkonias]

Unbowed is on a 8 or 12 second recycle timer now, Sheldwall gives easy access to Guard on demand, Warcry generates it on use as does Counterstrike.

 

It's not in as bad a spot as you claim to be, especially with promotions.

 

I would wager that Guard in it's current form is not that different from the Elusive coin system that Isabella is using from a defensive perspective. It's easily replenished and absorbs enough to keep your health bar full.

 

My problem with this is then of the 4 skills you have, you've basically got 2-3 dedicated to just keeping you upright. Makes playing the class kind of boring.

 

Mages equip one spell that works on the entire party, and they still have room for other fun stuff.

[TormDK]

Shieldwall protects anyone behind you, Warcry controls placement of mobs, Counterstrike the same.

 

It's only Unbowed that is selfish.

[Dragkonias]

Shieldwall protects anyone behind you, Warcry controls placement of mobs, Counterstrike the same.

 

It's only Unbowed that is selfish.

 

Well, problem with that is they still have to work in tandem and when they do it kind of shows you the problems with guard.

 

Shield Wall can on stay up for only so long since its a pretty big stamina hog, and Warcry draws aggro but if you're stuck in the animation while you're doing it chances are you're going to lose a chunk of the guard you just generated.

 

Thing is for Legionnaire Walking Fortress is the ability that ties all that stuff together. You basically have 6(down from 8) seconds of full invulnerability, where you generate guard and reduce the cooldown on all your other guard generation abilities. Without that freebie, keeping guard up is actually kind of annoying.

 

Templar on the other hand isn't that concerned with aggro, though that does take away from the whole "protecting everyone behind you" thing you mentioned. And even then, you're either stuck with the combo(which works against shield wall because of the stamina usage) or a party buffer(which is iffy at best since most of her buffs don't even work against all enemies). 

 

Sure, you can use Shield Wall to block one attack, but the guard generated is pretty minor against anyone but the biggest targets and goodness help you if you're currently being swarmed because that little sliver you've just generated will probably be gone as soon as you get it. 

[Hellsteeth30]

Just more guard would do.

So it can take a few hits.

OR bring back gating just for guard. Pretty sure that would not be possible though.

Demon commander is absolutely back on form though. Panic wave + shoryuken = fade for anything without shield wall or barrier up.

[Luke Barrett]

Also, I kind of think the guard shield wall generates against low level enemies should be buffed.

From the looks of it...its like 5 percent of the guard meter, which is basically nothing.

It's directly proportionate to the amount of stamina you are losing (assuming you have 100 max). If you're successfully blocking you essentially convert stamina in to guard.

Also, what I meant by my previous comment is that barrier as a system should be about 20-30% weaker and guard 100% stronger. Thus doesn't necessarily mean the raw values will shrink/grow by those numbers.

[AbyssMessiah]

It's directly proportionate to the amount of stamina you are losing (assuming you have 100 max). If you're successfully blocking you essentially convert stamina in to guard.

Also, what I meant by my previous comment is that barrier as a system should be about 20-30% weaker and guard 100% stronger. Thus doesn't necessarily mean the raw values will shrink/grow by those numbers.

Do please expedite. I am really sick of the AW tank and I really really really wanna play my Legio into Perilous without mandatory Shield Wall.

 

Pretty please with a cherry on top?