159 réponses à ce sujet

[ALTBOULI]

I think there might be an issue with long-shot, I was told by a friend that it was nerfed by around 20% but the damage i'm seeing is significantly less than this. I'm now doing around 1200 damage on a crit with long-shot. I was almost 3000 at times with it previously. Is anyone else having this issue?

[Felis Menari]

Do please expedite. I am really sick of the AW tank and I really really really wanna play my Legio into Perilous without mandatory Shield Wall.

 

Pretty please with a cherry on top?

So long as the AW can still do what he currently does for the most part, then sure I guess. If the change breaks the melee AW...well, so much for the Arcane Warrior.

[yarpenthemad21]

I think there might be an issue with long-shot, I was told by a friend that it was nerfed by around 20% but the damage i'm seeing is significantly less than this. I'm now doing around 1200 damage on a crit with long-shot. I was almost 3000 at times with it previously. Is anyone else having this issue?

The same for me. Best gear (dragon bow, rings, everything) and crit for 1,3k
On targets after first 2,3k sometimes. Explosive shots hits way harder.

[Dragkonias]

Also. I get what you're saying.

 

Not so much a percentage but general tweaks to increase/decrease effectiveness.

 

I'm all for that. 

[Drasca]

Like 3 cunning, 4 wisdom and 18 con ('ish, I don't have the exact figures but it's not more than that).

 

Turn the bolt, trust the steel and turn the Blade makes for alot of damage reduction.

 

So those talents needs a nerf at some point if our Armour rating are going up. Otherwise Bioware would need to give archers even more armour piercing abilities, which would defeat the point of buffing our armour rating in the first place.

 

Not that AR is going to massively increase anytime soon, but you'll still be flanked by archer fire and backstabbed to death. The AR doesn't work the way you think it does with these defenses though. They work before defense does, not after, so the relative damage decreased isn't that much.

 

Simplified Example with S&S warrior with turn the bolt, being attacked from the front.

 

500 damage archer shot vs 0 armor front on S&S with Turn Bolt  -> 100 Damage arrow  0% of damage was reduced by armor before defense

500 damage archer shot vs 50 armor front on S&S with Turn Bolt -> 90 Damage arrow 10% of damage was reduced by armor before defense

500 damage archer shot vs 100 armor front on S&S with Turn Bolt -> 80 Damage arrow 20% of damage was reduced by armor before defense

500 damage archer shot vs 150 armor front on S&S with Turn Bolt -> 70 Damage arrow 30% of damage was reduced by armor before defense

500 damage archer shot vs 200 armor front on S&S with Turn Bolt -> 60 Damage arrow  40% of damage was reduced by armor before defense

500 damage archer shot vs 250 armor front on S&S with Turn Bolt -> 50 Damage arrow  50% of damage was reduced by armor before defense

500 damage archer shot vs 300 armor front on S&S with Turn Bolt -> 40 Damage arrow  60% of damage was reduced by armor before defense

 

An increase of 50 armor resulted in only a decrease of 10 damage with max defenses. We won't actually see huge increases in armor like this in the game. The 'rock armor' increase is pathetic, and so are all the passives. War cry comes out closest, but only lasts for a few seconds before quickly tapering off armor boost effectiveness. Regardless, the armor boosts are not signifigant in Perilous.

 

In Routine and Threatening, the relative value of armor increases because the absolute value of enemy damage is far lower -- armor reducing up to all but one damage of enemy attacks.

[Dragkonias]

Yeah. Like the Virtuso has a move that increases armor for the party by a flat 100+.

 

Makes most of those +20%(which is only like 10-20 points) look pretty lame in comparison, even if they are permanent. 

[Xeck]

I don't think Barrier should be nerfed. I think it has to be significantly more protective than Guard because it depletes. The advantage of Guard is that it doesn't deplete, but is weaker, and vice versa. That said, I think Guard could certainly use a buff, but nerfing Barrier won't help anything.

Totally agree! A 30% certainly sounds excessive. Barrier is the only thing right now keeping pugs tolerable. 

[BansheeOwnage]

It's directly proportionate to the amount of stamina you are losing (assuming you have 100 max). If you're successfully blocking you essentially convert stamina in to guard.

Also, what I meant by my previous comment is that barrier as a system should be about 20-30% weaker and guard 100% stronger. Thus doesn't necessarily mean the raw values will shrink/grow by those numbers.

Thanks for the clarifications!

[TheThirdRace]

Unbowed is on a 8 or 12 second recycle timer now, Sheldwall gives easy access to Guard on demand, Warcry generates it on use as does Counterstrike.
 
It's not in as bad a spot as you claim to be, especially with promotions.
 
I would wager that Guard in it's current form is not that different from the Elusive coin system that Isabella is using from a defensive perspective. It's easily replenished and absorbs enough to keep your health bar full.

First thing first, let's make this clear: Anything is viable in Threatening, I mean anything. If you're basing your judgment on a lower difficulty than Perilous, then you should stop arguing because you wont't see why Guard's current state doesn't work.

Unbowed is only 10% per enemy for 12 seconds. It's "good", but you'd need 10 enemies to get the full 100% Guard. If you play with relatively good players, there will never be 10 enemies alive near you. That 100% Guard would still be only 750 extra "health" at best (and I mean very best), which goes out in 1 hit on Perilous. You can't replenish Guard to 100% easily with it so you usually get 30% to 50% at most, which is at most 375 extra "health"... Compared to a 4k Barrier, it's nothing.

As for comparing it to Elusive, you're completely wrong. Elusive ignore 100% of damage, it doesn't "bleed" on your health when you're hit like Guard does. Also, it's easy to rotate 3 skills to collect Elusive on a 8 second cycle which means you can almost never run out of it. Name me 1 ability that generates Guard that can be used with such a cooldown, cost about nothing, give you 100% damage reduction and most of all, hit like a truck. Because all those Elusive abilities also deals 1k damage on top of that... Now, name 3 abilities that can give me Guard that I can use every 8 seconds on 1 character without ever suffering from low stamina and always keep my Guard up. Please, do not compare Elusive with Guard, it's in another ballpark.

I've also seen some other posters bring up Walking Fortress. It's not easy to generate Guard with it when you're playing with good players. Everything dies so quickly you simply don't get hit more than once or twice, giving you very low Guard. It's simply not sustainable in Perilous. Even when surrounded by 5 or 6 enemies, Payback Strike will put them all on their backs long enough that you have time to kill them before Walking Fortress could become really effective. I also don't understand why it was nerfed from 8 seconds of invulnerability to 6 seconds. I mean, what a Legionnaire can do if not soak up damage? Deal damage? You're joking right? Walking Fortress is still a very good skill, but due to its nature and how it applies in game, it's not a good source of Guard.

Finally, I've also seen players talking about Shield Wall. Maybe they'll be surprised to know this, but most good players on Perilous ditch it as soon as they can. Why? Because this skill doesn't bring anything really useful. The only reason I've seen it used lately is because you can animation cancel with it and deal "amazing" damage... for a Legionnaire... The problem with Shield Wall is that you become a statue, you stay there, deal no damage, soak up 1 or 2 arrows then everything's dead because your teammates dealt with the enemy. Some people will say that's fine because you're supposed to be a tank, but why is it that a Keeper can soak up more damage and deal an extraordinary amount of damage at the same time? I mean, if a tank sole purpose should be to stand there, I mean why would there be anything else that does that better and deal more damage? The thing is, as soon as you have Barrier, the notion of a "tank" disappear completely and that's the reality. So instead of insisting playing a Legionnaire should be staying in place doing nothing useful, maybe we should ask that he should be buffed a bit in generating his Guard.

And before anyone tells me I'm preaching for my favorite character, let me say this. I have 23 Constitution total, that's 13 promotions (about 50 promotions for Cunning, another 50 for Willpower so it's far from "favoritism"). I don't hate Warriors, but I don't see the point. Rogues and Mages does the same job better. They protect their teammates by actually killing things and this make clearing a stage much faster too. I just feel it's a waste of time to play a Warrior, unless you just like playing one very very much. I do like some Warriors, but I really want to LOVE them instead as much as I love Rogues and Mages. In their current implementation they aren't as useful as they should, they're lagging behind the 2 other classes. Generating more Guard would help alleviate this problem, but there are certainly other things that should be done to make them equal to Rogues and Mages. Warriors should have been able to close up faster with the enemies. There is the great Shield Bash and the slightly less useful Lunge and Slash for that, but it needs more to keep up with our ranged teammates. Movement speed should also be improved, it's annoying to get to a target and see it dies before you land your first hit...

[Dragkonias]

Honestly, I prefer playing the Katari to the Legionnaire these days.

 

He generates guard pretty well and he actually kills things. 

 

I'd say Walking Fortress is the only thing Legionnaire has over him and that got nerfed.

 

Still needs barrier support from time to time on Perilious though. 

[TheThirdRace]

@Dragkonias
You're absolutely right. The Katari is the best example of generating Guard. I still find Guard goes down too quickly, but at least you can generate it constantly with the Katari.

Without going the exact same way as the Katari with Guard on hit, it could be simply generating Guard whenever the Legionnaire or the Templar use an ability that physically hit the enemy. That way, Shield Bash, Lunge and Slash and Payback Strike would provide 3 skills generating a small amount of Guard and you could rotate that on a 8 seconds cycle. This wouldn't as survivable as Isabella's Elusive or even remotely dealing as much damage, but at least it would open up the possibility of playing the Legionnaire "offensively". And by "offense" I mean dealing a normal amount of damage for a character that should be front and center to protect its teammates. He won't transform in a killer machine like the Reaver or the Templar (W+P), but at least he'll be more versatile.

[BiggyDX]

When it comes to the partially destroyed walls on Zone 5 of the Fereldan Map, would you guys be able to make them destructible only when if the Dragon hits them? I find that it becomes a brutal fiasco when having to deal with so many Red Templar archers because he basically destroyed any potential cover you might have had.

[FRZN]

I think there might be an issue with long-shot, I was told by a friend that it was nerfed by around 20% but the damage i'm seeing is significantly less than this. I'm now doing around 1200 damage on a crit with long-shot. I was almost 3000 at times with it previously. Is anyone else having this issue?

Yep. It was supposed to have gone from 500% to 400%, but the damage I'm seeing is more like 250%.

[Drasca]

Yep. It was supposed to have gone from 500% to 400%, but the damage I'm seeing is more like 250%.

 

The minimum longshot distance was increased, and mininum bonus damage for close range shots was also decreased.

[FRZN]

The minimum longshot distance was increased, and mininum bonus damage for close range shots was also decreased.

Yeah, it's just basic attack damage for shots under 15m. Beyond 15m though it's dealing less damage than explosive shot.

[Drasca]

First thing first, let's make this clear: Anything is viable in Threatening, I mean anything. If you're basing your judgment on a lower difficulty than Perilous, then you should stop arguing because you won'' see why Guard's current state doesn't work.

 

I totally agree on this. I have to break down your wall of text to properly reply though. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to say guard is trivial and you should not rely on guard, but I must disagree on specific points even though we both agree that the current state of most guard abilities is not worth pursuing.

 

 

Compared to a 4k Barrier, it's nothing.

You can't replenish Guard to 100% easily

That 100% Guard would still be only 750 extra "health" at best (and I mean very best), which goes out in 1 hit on Perilous.

 

You can easily go to 100% guard with SW. I get 500-600 guard without trying though on Katari, and 700+ on Templar with one passive.

On on my mage, 8-9k, with barrier ring and SoS, AND it is cast on up to 4 players. Guess which I prefer.

 

On S&S warriors with Turn Bolt/Blade, they'd max front defense easily (regardless of promotions), making most melee hits doing about 50, and hits from bosses around 100-150. That's anywhere from 3-5 hits vs bosses, and a dozen vs regular mobs.

 

It is not just 'one' hit on perilous. Arrows also do trivial damage to shield wall's stamina, and a lot less damage in general to S&S warriors.

 

2H Warriors have it rougher defense wise. Katari depends on mobility, guard on hit and sometimes TTD. Reaver, its replenishing health pool + Combat Roll / War horn, and Avvar on AoE damage performing HoK, with some minor Guard + Defense from KM, and occasional speed buffs.

 

 

Everything dies so quickly you simply don't get hit more than once or twice, giving you very low Guard. It's simply not sustainable in Perilous.

what a Legionnaire can do if not soak up damage? Deal damage? You're joking right?

 

When this is true, you don't use the defensive abilities, and focus your attention on attack. With my Lego builds, I can PBS + SB through giant mobs, putting them on their backs as you say, which opens up Isabela's Bolt abilities since they will no longer be blocked, if I am not the one directly killing them myself. AoE KD is very valuable in addition to damage, and guard smashing.

 

 

but most good players on Perilous ditch it as soon as they can.

Only the Lego, not the Templar. The amazing templar players keep SW. The stupid ones take unbowed and line in the sand.

 

 

I don't hate Warriors, but I don't see the point. Rogues and Mages does the same job better. They protect their teammates by actually killing things and this make clearing a stage much faster too.

 

Third has forgotten how fast I clear on Warriors, and how I've topped the scoreboard (and killboard) every time I was on warrior on the same games. The stronger Warrior players were doing the same in our games too.  I do the same even faster now on Avvar, beating even Audacity Isabellas, and definitely newly nerfed Archers + AW's.

 

There are pitfalls, but the rewards are present.

 

Weaker warrior players will still die a lot, and it is far too easy to fail as a warrior whereas mages are far more forgiving, and so are archers (because they can dps from range next to the keeper/virtuoso). The virtuoso is a big step in correcting the survivability of players as a whole.

 

 

In their current implementation they aren't as useful as they should, they're lagging behind the 2 other classes. Generating more Guard would help alleviate this problem, but there are certainly other things that should be done to make them equal to Rogues and Mages

 

Movement speed should also be improved, it's annoying to get to a target and see it dies before you land your first hit...

 

I still totally agree with this. I do awesome on here, but I totally know how much it really sucks to be melee/warrior, especially without gear, builds, knowing what to do, lag, and dozens of issues with their abilities, tracking and lag.

 

You absolutely have to run forward and past trash mobs just to have a fair chance of killing bigger groups as a warrior. Basically, solo them all or gtfo. Avvar has Furious blows and Scenting Blood, both helping with his movement speed -- but if you have terrible (base) critical chance it sucks hardcore to play him without those movement buffs.

 

Really, don't get me wrong, warriors need some love, we both agree on that. Third is just wrong about certain specifics.

 

Yes Third, you are biased against warriors... but that doesn't mean the issues don't need addressing.

[Drasca]

Yeah, it's just basic attack damage for shots under 15m. Beyond 15m though it's dealing less damage than explosive shot.

 

If you join my games in PC, I can demonstrate in-game my crits doing 3 to 4.5k damage. ES did get better but LS is still king (just not for everyone, because it requires gear + build + L2P skill now)

[MGW7]

If max guard was raised, say 400% of current (1:1 guard/health iirc), if current guard generation as a percent is too high then simply reduce that percentage by a scaling amount, this would allow generating a big pool of guard, and maintaining it would still be trickier than with barriers.

 

And guard is only on 4/15 characters (all tanky melee characters), and none of the warriors can spread guard to others, 3 mages can put barriers on the entire team, so why are barriers 10x stronger.

 

I would also like to see team given guard powers, it would fit the buff based nature of the legionnaire and Templar to buff up their team with guard, even if a new character could spread guard it would be nice.

[FRZN]

If you join my games in PC, I can demonstrate in-game my crits doing 3 to 4.5k damage. ES did get better but LS is still king (just not for everyone, because it requires gear + build + L2P skill now)

That's due to passives, ability ring, and crit damage though, right? I'm not saying you can't make it hit hard, but either the damage on the ability itself is significantly less than the advertised 400% or there's some more complicated issue reducing its damage.


edit: I tested with my long shot ring it looks like it's taking my longshot from ~250% to ~433% (and the tooltip from 100+300 to 166+498). So the base damage is messed up but the ring is about twice as strong as it's supposed to be and makes up a lot of the difference. I guess the lesson is use it with the ring or don't use it at all.

[TheThirdRace]

@Drasca
I'm not disagreeing with you, you do far better than I do with Warriors. You have better insight into their mechanics and you play them masterfully.

On the other hand, you forget you are very very skilled with Warriors. You can't expect people to come even close of how good you are with them. It might seem natural to you, but it's not the same for 99% of the player base... You also have a crazy amount of promotions which screw a bit your impressions and conclusions. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I disagree on some points because you forget that your situation is far from being the norm.

The way I see it, Rogues are the "hardest" to play, especially melee ones (except maybe Isabella). They survive by Stealth and/or great DPS. Mages are the easiest to play, they survive with Barrier or Death Syphon, both of which are more than amazing, and they can deal a pretty good amount of damage. Warriors are all about surviving. They don't attack much, they stand there trying harder than everyone else to stay alive using all their abilities just for that. Unless you have tons of promotions, the best gear or you're not playing Perilous, that's the role you're gonna get as a Warrior. It makes no sense...

I'm currently having a blast using Payback Strike, Lunge and Slash, Unbowed and Shield Bash on the Legionnaire. My party always has a Keeper or a Virtuoso so Walking Fortress wasn't really useful. And it's freaking fun, I move on the battlefield like crazy, that Lego has wings when you're allowed to spread them! With that setup, I come close to the other mages in the kill department. I finally feel like I actually contribute. I wish I could do this without having someone to babysit me, I'm a freaking Warrior, I should be able to tank those things, not cower in fear until I get Barrier...

[DrakeHasNoFlow]

Like most, I agree guard mechanics are in a desperate need of a revision in DAMP. It doesn't make sense for a class to be labeled warrior and have abysmal defense. If this class specializes in up front offense, than they shouldn't be so reliant on gear and promotions to be viable and less of a burden on support classes. If I'm hugging walls and rolling around trying to evade the next arrow, than im not a warrior rather a ballerina rogue. If my charging bull is blocked by a shieldless mook, who weighs one hundred pounds less than a katari, than either this warrior class was intended to be lesser by default. Currently, there is really only one warrior that you could specify as being absolute tanky and he is a mage and that is sad.

[ALTBOULI]

That's due to passives, ability ring, and crit damage though, right? I'm not saying you can't make it hit hard, but either the damage on the ability itself is significantly less than the advertised 400% or there's some more complicated issue reducing its damage.edit: So I tested with my long shot ring it looks like it's taking my longshot from ~250% to ~433% (and the tooltip from 100+300 to 166+498). So the base damage is messed up but the ring is about twice as strong as it's supposed to be and makes it a lot of the difference. So I guess use it with the ring or don't use it at all.

Yup, a friend who has the ring is doing almost 1000 more damage than I am without the ring. If you dont have the ring and high stats from promoting then its really not worth it now, with spiketrap i'm doing over 2k on a crit so I know its not an issue with the build i'm using

[Dragkonias]

Yeah, I don't have a ring and I shot the ability at max distance. The damage was kind of sad. Figured it was bugged.

[edog808]

Any plans to fix the Hidden Step evolution (or at least its description) to Evade? The decoy you spawn lasts for only a fraction of a second, not the stated 3. Would be an amazing upgrade if it worked as described.

Thanks for all the great tweaks so far!

[BansheeOwnage]

Unbowed is only 10% per enemy for 12 seconds. It's "good", but you'd need 10 enemies to get the full 100% Guard.

Actually, with the upgrade it's a lot more than 10%. It says it "increases generation by 100%" which is a bit confusing, but implies to me that you get 20% per enemy. In my experience though, I feel like I often get 100% Guard with only 3 enemies around me.