1001 réponses à ce sujet

[Capone666]

This is some of which I truely enjoy most about the forums; Lore discussions and interesting perspectives 

True enough but it often gets stuck on a single point 

[QueenCrow]

Well, by 'propaganda' I only really brought it up for comparisons sake, as I don't actually consider DAI to be propaganda at all. Propaganda is something that I would consider to have a very specific goal, so as to promote some specific state policy, war, agenda, etc. It may be heavily biased and contain deliberately misleading facts or information, or may attempt to discredit or ridicule dissent in some way, etc. I do see games as having the potential for that, as in any other type of mass media. On the flip side, they also have the potential to break though propaganda and open minds, as art and literature have.

As far as what the end goal would be, I think that is irrelevant, even if I might agree with the end goal, that doesn't necessarily justify the means. But again, I would not consider discussion of sexual diversity as propaganda. I would just consider it social commentary. The point at which it might cross into propaganda might be, for example, deliberately misrepresenting someone or something, or being intentionally dishonest, etc.

 

Thank you.  I appreciate your answer.

[Medhia_Nox]

I'm really curious about the saarebas.  We have a very limited understanding of the practice.  

It's reductive to say that the qunari mage population is simply brainwashed.  Certainly some, perhaps even many, arebut I find any that chose that path to neither be self-hating nor deluded.  I believe a very sensible, cautious qunari mage could see the merits of this "activity". 

 

But here's the questions I have.  Are all saarebas immediately given the treatment we see Katonjin(sp?) subject to?  Do they go through these treatments as punishments perhaps?  Misuse of magic leads to lips being sown up or something?  Are saarebas given a place of honor in qunari society like was suggest in DA2?  If so, what is the place of honor for the "blessed cursed"?  When do qunari show magical aptitude and how does that timeline match with the process of sorting them into their different job aptitudes?  

 

I would have loved to talk to Katonjin (sp) more - here his rebuttals to your arguments and counter with his own.  He didn't seem to struggle with his choice to die and I refuse, for the sake of having a mind not closed to possibly not understanding someone elses thoughts, that he was simply a brainwashed puppet with a self-destruct switch.  

 

More and more I want DA:4 to NOT be about fighting the Qun - but to be a part of it (with the option to reject it of course and become Tal Vashoth).  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well Ketojan can still speak with his lips sown together, so clearly they aren't sown shut. I think Ketojan is the standard for Saarebas treatment. The misuse of magic results in tongue being cut out in the Qun.

[In Exile]

I'm really curious about the saarebas.  We have a very limited understanding of the practice.  

It's reductive to say that the qunari mage population is simply brainwashed.  Certainly some, perhaps even many, arebut I find any that chose that path to neither be self-hating nor deluded.  I believe a very sensible, cautious qunari mage could see the merits of this "activity". 

 

But here's the questions I have.  Are all saarebas immediately given the treatment we see Katonjin(sp?) subject to?  Do they go through these treatments as punishments perhaps?  Misuse of magic leads to lips being sown up or something?  Are saarebas given a place of honor in qunari society like was suggest in DA2?  If so, what is the place of honor for the "blessed cursed"?  When do qunari show magical aptitude and how does that timeline match with the process of sorting them into their different job aptitudes?  

 

I would have loved to talk to Katonjin (sp) more - here his rebuttals to your arguments and counter with his own.  He didn't seem to struggle with his choice to die and I refuse, for the sake of having a mind not closed to possibly not understanding someone elses thoughts, that he was simply a brainwashed puppet with a self-destruct switch.  

 

More and more I want DA:4 to NOT be about fighting the Qun - but to be a part of it (with the option to reject it of course and become Tal Vashoth).  

 

There is a thread here about WOT2 and how the Sareebas are treated. It's pretty bad; in fact, from the content of that thread, it actually sounds worse than what we think based on what's been shown in DA2. 

 

If I previously said the mages were brainwashed, I'd like to retract the comment; it isn't representative of what I think. The Sarebaas has an interesting role in the Qun - one DA2 codex suggests in some ways it's an honoured position, because of the extent of the struggle to maintain your role and "be" unlike everyone else in the Qun. I think the reality of it is kind of like how e.g. women are "honoured" in certain cultures, which is to say that the underlying treatment is terrible but the belief surrounding the role is venerating. 

 

Ketojan to me is the most fascinating character in DA2, and the absolute best representation of the Qun's notion of certainty. He was certain in his role - and his role demanded that he die. So he did. 

 

Edit: According to the WOT2 thread, the mask the Sarebaas wear has some verse from the Qun, which is all they're allowed to see. It's almost absurdly abusive from an outsider POV. 

[Toasted Llama]

You know when it comes to sexuality. I honestly think trying to explain the difference between various terms is almost pointless. The fact is, even the more well known sexualities will mean something different to different people. For instance, some women identify as lesbians even though they sometimes have sex with men. Yet for some women, sleeping with men by definition means you can't be a lesbian. And the reverse is true as well. Sometimes people fall in love with someone of the same gender but don't iedfity as gay or even bi because it only happened once or twice and they still feel they identify as straight. 

 

I've seen videos by pansexual people attempting to explain why pansexuality is different from bisexuality and frankly they've only made the issue more confusing to me. In fact, I saw one person explain the difference in a way than another person directly contradicted. 

 

I actually did see a good explanation of what the difference was here but I can't remember what it was. But basically my point is, there's going to be a lot of overlap with as many labels as there are. I doubt there is going to be a satisfactory explanation for everyone as to why each and every one is different from the other.

 

I just now typed demisexuality into google. The website about it explained a little about how different/similar it was to asexuality. And even demisexuality.org talks about how some demisexuals enjoy sex and others don't. So that label is also probably going to mean different things to different people, even among those who identify as it.

Yeah this is one of those things I'll never understand.

Why label things/have names or definitions for things if you're just going to change it anyway? Why label/have names or definitions for things things when the label means something else to other people? It's pointless and it's throwing the very foundation of human language under the bus.

Don't like being called a thief? **** it, just change the definition!

*grumble grumble*

[Legion of 1337]

I was gonna post but the conversation is no longer really on topic. Ill just wait til it is.

[In Exile]

I was gonna post but the conversation is no longer really on topic. Ill just wait til it is.

Bring us back on topic.  

[Geth Supremacy]

I was gonna post but the conversation is no longer really on topic. Ill just wait til it is.

 

Gonna be a while?

 

Spoiler

 

 

Don't mention it.

 

[Legion of 1337]

Bring us back on topic.

Can do.

Gaider can tart it up however he wants. He's gay, he feels a need as a result to make sexual identity checklists for his games. Dorian is a blatant self projection of Gaider himself. Plus it gets him social justice cred and hipster points with the tumblr crowd. So what if half of it is shoehorned and the diversity is statistically remote - it works for him.

[Hiemoth]

Can do.

Gaider can tart it up however he wants. He's gay, he feels a need as a result to make sexual identity checklists for his games. Dorian is a blatant self projection of Gaider himself. Plus it gets him social justice cred and hipster points with the tumblr crowd. So what if half of it is shoehorned and the diversity is statistically remote - it works for him.

 

Out of curioisty, do you know Gaider? Or what do you base the argument that it is a blatant self projection? Did you feel Isabela was a blatant self projection of Sheryl Chee?

 

I also kind of love that the only reasons someone would apparently write a gay character is to either get social justice cred or be gay themselves, as apparently characters can only function as a self projection.

[Geth Supremacy]

Can do.

Gaider can tart it up however he wants. He's gay, he feels a need as a result to make sexual identity checklists for his games. Dorian is a blatant self projection of Gaider himself. Plus it gets him social justice cred and hipster points with the tumblr crowd. So what if half of it is shoehorned and the diversity is statistically remote - it works for him.

 

Wasn't he lead writer on the previous DA games?  IMO in those games they were part of the game yes, but not shoved in your face at every chance and more the focus theme over everything else including the game itself.  I never felt like there was a checklist or a quota until DAI.  If you're saying this was a progressive thing then I can see where you coming from, but this is the first game where I feel like this was "shoehorned"  Thats just my opinion on the matter.

[vertigomez]

Can do.
Gaider can tart it up however he wants. He's gay, he feels a need as a result to make sexual identity checklists for his games. Dorian is a blatant self projection of Gaider himself. Plus it gets him social justice cred and hipster points with the tumblr crowd. So what if half of it is shoehorned and the diversity is statistically remote - it works for him.

LGBT folks just existing is "shoehorning".

lololol ool

[Legion of 1337]

Wasn't he lead writer on the previous DA games?  IMO in those games they were part of the game yes, but not shoved in your face at every chance and more the focus theme over everything else including the game itself.  I never felt like there was a checklist or a quota until DAI.  If you're saying this was a progressive thing then I can see where you coming from, but this is the first game where I feel like this was "shoehorned"  Thats just my opinion on the matter.

I would agree with this. Well, for Origins. DA2s playersexual companions were...well, worse actually.

[BansheeOwnage]

Demisexuality is also borderline redundant IMHO, because it seems to classify the preference for casual sex VS relationship sex as a sexuality. Asexuality I can understand and something I'd like to see in future Bioware games.

What I understood demisexuality was is kind of like half of someone's orientation. But it's not a preference for casual sex or relationship sex. It's that a demisexual only feels sexual attraction after bonding (which I find very interesting), so I'd say it's different enough to not be redundant.

You know when it comes to sexuality. I honestly think trying to explain the difference between various terms is almost pointless. The fact is, even the more well known sexualities will mean something different to different people. For instance, some women identify as lesbians even though they sometimes have sex with men. Yet for some women, sleeping with men by definition means you can't be a lesbian. And the reverse is true as well. Sometimes people fall in love with someone of the same gender but don't iedfity as gay or even bi because it only happened once or twice and they still feel they identify as straight. 

 

I've seen videos by pansexual people attempting to explain why pansexuality is different from bisexuality and frankly they've only made the issue more confusing to me. In fact, I saw one person explain the difference in a way than another person directly contradicted. 

 

I actually did see a good explanation of what the difference was here but I can't remember what it was. But basically my point is, there's going to be a lot of overlap with as many labels as there are. I doubt there is going to be a satisfactory explanation for everyone as to why each and every one is different from the other.

 

I just now typed demisexuality into google. The website about it explained a little about how different/similar it was to asexuality. And even demisexuality.org talks about how some demisexuals enjoy sex and others don't. So that label is also probably going to mean different things to different people, even among those who identify as it.

Basically all that. Labels are funny. Some of them mean different things to different people, and that's because everyone is different. We'd need 7 billion labels to accurately describe people, but obviously that's absurd. So, we have labels that might fit with a group, more or less. And that's fine, in my opinion. Labels can be helpful. It would be pretty annoying if people had to explain everything about them in painful detail when they could use a word or two instead. Labels are inevitable, I think, and that's fine. Just know that they're loose definitions of people.

[Legion of 1337]

LGBT folks just existing is "shoehorning".
lololol ool

Most companions are shoehorned in DAI.

In terms of sexuality:

Sera is fine. Dorian wasnt shoehorned until his personal quest. Krem is irrelevent and only exists to be transexual. Iron Bull is bisexual because then all fans can romance him because hes a fanservicey cool character, he has no purpose in the story. Josephine is bisexual just because - which is fine.

[In Exile]

Can do.

Gaider can tart it up however he wants. He's gay, he feels a need as a result to make sexual identity checklists for his games. Dorian is a blatant self projection of Gaider himself. Plus it gets him social justice cred and hipster points with the tumblr crowd. So what if half of it is shoehorned and the diversity is statistically remote - it works for him.

 

Well, that's not where I thought this was going to go. If Dorian is a self-projection, then he should project himself into every character - Dorian is awesome. I'm not even sure where you get the shoehorned or statistically remote bits. 

 

Wasn't he lead writer on the previous DA games?  IMO in those games they were part of the game yes, but not shoved in your face at every chance and more the focus theme over everything else including the game itself.  I never felt like there was a checklist or a quota until DAI.  If you're saying this was a progressive thing then I can see where you coming from, but this is the first game where I feel like this was "shoehorned"  Thats just my opinion on the matter.

 

There's no substantive difference in how DA:I handles romance or diversity from DA:O, with the difference that one character's personal quest revolves around his refusal to have a sham M/F marriage. I don't see how it could possibly be shoehorned in. Other than, I suppose, people objecting to the very fact that Dorian and Krem exist. 

 

 

Most companions are shoehorned in DAI.

In terms of sexuality:

Sera is fine. Dorian wasnt shoehorned until his personal quest. Krem is irrelevent and only exists to be transexual. Iron Bull is bisexual because then all fans can romance him because hes a fanservicey cool character, he has no purpose in the story. Josephine is bisexual just because - which is fine.

 

I don't think you get what "shoehorning" means. It's one to to say that you thought the execution of a quest is poorly done - it sounds like that's your issue with Dorian. But a character doesn't "become" shoehorned. More to the point, Dorian is pretty tied to the plot. In fact, Dorian is one character who's actually tied to the main plot - unlike Viv, Blackwall, Sera and the IB. 

[vertigomez]

Most companions are shoehorned in DAI.
In terms of sexuality:
Sera is fine. Dorian wasnt shoehorned until his personal quest. Krem is irrelevent and only exists to be transexual. Iron Bull is bisexual because then all fans can romance him because hes a fanservicey cool character, he has no purpose in the story. Josephine is bisexual just because - which is fine.

Right, I'm sure you have all this on very good authority, and aren't just pulling it out of your ass.

[Geth Supremacy]

 

There's no substantive difference in how DA:I handles romance or diversity from DA:O, with the difference that one character's personal quest revolves around his refusal to have a sham M/F marriage. I don't see how it could possibly be shoehorned in. Other than, I suppose, people objecting to the very fact that Dorian and Krem exist. 

 

I disagree.

 

I've never had any run ins with you before and I'm sure you're just sharing your opinion, but if I'm honest this feels a bit like grasping at straws to me.  I clearly stated I never felt this way in previous games and characters of all kinds were included yet you still tell me despite that their very existence is the only way you can understand my objecting.

 

To me I cannot understand how someone CAN'T get that feeling when playing DAI.  That's not to say that I don't believe they do.  It's just such a huge part of the game you can't miss it. 
 

[Legion of 1337]

Out of curioisty, do you know Gaider? Or what do you base the argument that it is a blatant self projection? Did you feel Isabela was a blatant self projection of Sheryl Chee?
 
I also kind of love that the only reasons someone would apparently write a gay character is to either get social justice cred or be gay themselves, as apparently characters can only function as a self projection.

Only Dorian is likely a self projection. Gaider, we know, putba lot of heart and soul in writing that character. None of the other characters have their sexual orientation become a plot point because in Thedas its not a big deal, but Dorian does, and in place of more important ideas like being a political rebel. But no, it all turns into a classic "My father doesnt like Im gay" story. Its so typical, i can only see Gaider, who knows that, doing it if it has some kind of personal meaning for him.

[Toasted Llama]

LGBT folks just existing is "shoehorning".

lololol ool

No you see, they're allowed to exist, they just can't be too LGBT.

If they're LGBT but still like the opposite sex like DA:O and DA2, then it's juuust fine.

But a 100% LGBT character? Oh noez! something something IMMERSION something.

[Legion of 1337]

Right, I'm sure you have all this on very good authority, and aren't just pulling it out of your ass.

A writer wouldnt typically state they only included something because of an agenda, even if they did.

[BansheeOwnage]

There's no substantive difference in how DA:I handles romance or diversity from DA:O, with the difference that one character's personal quest revolves around his refusal to have a sham M/F marriage. I don't see how it could possibly be shoehorned in. Other than, I suppose, people objecting to the very fact that Dorian and Krem exist. 

Well, it's quite different in diversity because DA:O/DA2 didn't have any homosexual characters, barring potentially yours.

[9TailsFox]

Only Dorian is likely a self projection. Gaider, we know, putba lot of heart and soul in writing that character. None of the other characters have their sexual orientation become a plot point because in Thedas its not a big deal, but Dorian does, and in place of more important ideas like being a political rebel. But no, it all turns into a classic "My father doesnt like Im gay" story. Its so typical, i can only see Gaider, who knows that, doing it if it has some kind of personal meaning for him.

it's nice to be lead writer king.

[BansheeOwnage]

No you see, they're allowed to exist, they just can't be too LGBT.

If they're LGBT but still like the opposite sex like DA:O and DA2, then it's juuust fine.

But a 100% LGBT character? Oh noez! something something IMMERSION something.

I get your point but I think you mean the LG part only.