1001 réponses à ce sujet

[Geth Supremacy]

I can't see which (if any) of my posts you're quoting but I don't have any harsh feelings toward you at all. If I sound abrasive it's because I'm unfortunately a but abrasive in my manner. IRL I tend to mitigate that with a lot of easy smiles and dry wit but writing doesn't really convey either without a liberal use of emoticons, and then I just look 12.

I'm just trying to understand how your experience is different from mine. Normally when I have these conversations it just ends with someone throwing a tired of SJW insults at me. You and I are genuinely communicating so I'm trying to get perspective (and share my own).

 

No I wasn't quoting anything.  I just put that there so you would get the notification that I made that post.  I was referring to the post I had made much earlier to you.

 

I am the same way.  I don't enjoy having to beat a around a bush at the expense of hurting someones feelings who is not a child and I prefer for people to do the same to me.  I know the world doesn't work like that obviously, and I try my best to keep it in check (mostly in daily life) but I do find at times my sensitive meter is off and I need to say things like the post I made.  I just didn't know if this was one of those times or not.  I have given in and I do make use of emoticons though....it makes life a lot easier in text haha.  There are times I come off way different than I intend.  Luckily I'm starting to get a good grasp on that now.

 

I'm not the type of person who resorts to insults.  You don't have to worry about that from me.  I go through times when my patience is thin, but at those times I try to take a break.  I save the insults for my buddies, not people I argue with (not that we were ever arguing) haha.  In my mind when someone resorts to insults that is when they have given up and know they are wrong.

 

I enjoy when people actually post and say their side and I can where they are coming from.  I am more than capable of seeing things from other people's view, but at the same time I expect the same from them (which I see you are able too when its properly explained).  I do know a lot of people around here don't see things the way I do.

 

I just went back and had read that post I made and i was just kinda like "ehhhh that might have had a little to much spice on it" and did that as a "just in case" measure.

[Shadow Fox]

Well 1: if you story is about gay people, equal split dont make much sense. Make most of the cast gay. So theres that.

My original reason was believability. The chances that half your romancable party members happen to not be straight (as they are now) is very low, because there just arent a lot of non straight people. It becomes obvious when you do it those characters are there for the sake of their sexual orientation (like token blacks or the like).

Not this **** again...

[BabyPuncher]

Are you referring to the one-sided conversation where you complained that certain women make your dick wilt, and I said I didn't care? 'Cause I still don't.

I'm referring to you to you reacting with rage and horror to the idea of a transgendered person being excluded from being considered beautiful and alluring (presumably because you think it's wrong to bar someone from something they deeply desire over a quality they have no control over) and then derisively calling another character hideous.

[The Elder King]

I'm referring to you to you reacting with rage and horror to the idea of a transgendered person being excluded from being considered beautiful and alluring (presumably because you think it's wrong to bar someone from something they deeply desire over a quality they have no control over) and then derisively calling another character hideous.

As far as I recall it wasn't about beauty, it was Transgendered women not being true women (In your opinion).

[Andraste_Reborn]

I'm referring to you to you reacting with rage and horror to the idea of a transgendered person being excluded from being considered beautiful and alluring (presumably because you think it's wrong to bar someone from something they deeply desire over a quality they have no control over) and then derisively calling another character hideous.

 

She said Ashley's make-up was hideous. That's not the same thing.

 

Suggesting that Ash could maybe lay off the mascara is not really comparable to saying that there are no attractive trans women.

[Hunter111]

She said Ashley's make-up was hideous. That's not the same thing.
 
Suggesting that Ash could maybe lay off the mascara is not really comparable to saying that there are no attractive trans women.

Out of curiosity, what does it matter if person X thinks there's no attractive trans women, at least that he or she has seen?

There are some groups that I myself don't find attractive. The obese, for example. Now, while I have not seen every obese person in the world, I can say I've never seen one I've found attractive, can't I? And in general, I can make the statement, "I don't find the obese attractive."

Now, while I would mostly keep that to myself in order not to hurt anyone's feelings, I would argue that there is nothing "wrong" with finding a particular group unattractive for whatever reason. There's no arguing over someone's perception of attractiveness, is there?

Or do we have to strive to find everyone equally attractive in order not to be accused of some particular -ism?

[vertigomez]

I'm referring to you to you reacting with rage and horror to the idea of a transgendered person being excluded from being considered beautiful and alluring (presumably because you think it's wrong to bar someone from something they deeply desire over a quality they have no control over) and then derisively calling another character hideous.

No, I said "gay and trans people should be included in the game".

You said "I don't find trans women attractive dOES THAT MEAN YOU'RE GONNA MAKE ME BANG THEM AT GUNPOINT?!?!"

And I said "wtf does your penis have to do with their inclusion or worthiness as characters"? The answer: nothing.

The difference between you and me is that I don't think Ashley should be excluded from the game simply because I don't think she's hawt.

[Andraste_Reborn]

There's no arguing over someone's perception of attractiveness, is there?

 

Nope. There's nothing wrong with not finding a particular group of people attractive. I think that writing off entire broad categories of people who have few physical characteristics in common (like trans women) is pretty silly, but I don't think it's wrong.

 

There is something wrong with saying that because you don't find a particular group of people attractive, they shouldn't be in stories.

[vertigomez]

BabyPuncher brought up not finding trans women attractive out of NOWHERE. Nobody was even discussing that when he waltzed in and felt a fierce need to share his feelz.

The only thing said was that gay and trans people should not be excluded from the game. That's it.

[BabyPuncher]

As far as I recall it wasn't about beauty, it was Transgendered women not being true women (In your opinion).

Don't you think that's a necessary part of being a 'real woman'? Being desired, being alluring? Being courted? Having your 'femininity' valued and appreciated and loved?

They do want those things, yes? They want more than existing as an effectively asexual being with the 'female' box checked off on some piece of paperwork in a file cabinet?

[vertigomez]

Don't you think that's a necessary part of being a 'real woman'? Being desired, being alluring? Being courted? Having your 'femininity' valued and appreciated and loved?
They do want those things, yes? They want more than being an effectively asexual being with the 'female' box checked off on some piece of paperwork in a file cabinet?

No.

And you don't know anything about real women.

[Hunter111]

Nope. There's nothing wrong with not finding a particular group of people attractive. I think that writing off entire broad categories of people who have few physical characteristics in common (like trans women) is pretty silly, but I don't think it's wrong.
 
There is something wrong with saying that because you don't find a particular group of people attractive, they shouldn't be in stories.

Gotcha. I understand and agree with that, the comment I quoted seemed to be implying though, that it was bad to not find a particular group attractive. Since I've misunderstood, I'll show myself out.

[BabyPuncher]

No.
And you don't know anything about real women.

Fantastic.

If it's not necessary, there shouldn't be any issue in excluding transgendered people from certain places in stories, yes? Like the beautiful princess who receives the big kiss at the end with the fireworks and spinning camera around her, for example.

[Panda]

This thread sure is going to weird places

[Andraste_Reborn]

Don't you think that's a necessary part of being a 'real woman'? Being desired, being alluring? Being courted? Having your 'femininity' valued and appreciated and loved?

 

*dies laughing*

[BabyPuncher]

*dies laughing*

I'm glad you think a transgendered person wanting to be considered alluring and attractive is such a laughable, ridiculous thing. That makes this very easy.

Again, if they really don't want such a thing, it shouldn't be any issue to exclude them from it.

[Lady Artifice]

I'm glad you think a transgendered person wanting to be considered alluring and attractive is such a laughable, ridiculous thing. That makes this very easy.

Again, if they really don't want such a thing, it shouldn't be any issue to exclude them from it.

 

 

You are having a different argument from the one people you are arguing with are having. 

 

They are saying that a character's physical attributes do not define their worth as a character. 

[syllogi]

Don't you think that's a necessary part of being a 'real woman'? Being desired, being alluring? Being courted? Having your 'femininity' valued and appreciated and loved?

They do want those things, yes? They want more than existing as an effectively asexual being with the 'female' box checked off on some piece of paperwork in a file cabinet?

 

No, being desired, alluring, and feminine is not part of being a "real woman."  Some people, male, female or other, want those things, and that's fine, but that's not an essential part of being a woman.

 

Why would being feminine and desirable be the only way to include "real women" in stories anyway?  

[Lady Artifice]

Out of curiosity, what does it matter if person X thinks there's no attractive trans women, at least that he or she has seen?

There are some groups that I myself don't find attractive. The obese, for example. Now, while I have not seen every obese person in the world, I can say I've never seen one I've found attractive, can't I? And in general, I can make the statement, "I don't find the obese attractive."

Now, while I would mostly keep that to myself in order not to hurt anyone's feelings, I would argue that there is nothing "wrong" with finding a particular group unattractive for whatever reason. There's no arguing over someone's perception of attractiveness, is there?

Or do we have to strive to find everyone equally attractive in order not to be accused of some particular -ism?

 

My understanding is that this isn't what Gomez was saying. Rather, she was suggesting that one person's level of attraction to a character cast no reflection on that character's place in a story. The assumption Babypuncher seems to be making, is that a female character's allure is a high priority to that character's creator, and if they do not have allure for him, then that creator has failed. 

 

He does not seem to factor in the possibility that a female character is not defined by their romantic and sensual appeal.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I'm glad you think a transgendered person wanting to be considered alluring and attractive is such a laughable, ridiculous thing. That makes this very easy.

 

That really isn't what I find funny here.

 

(Spoilers: it's your assumptions about women.)

[vertigomez]

Fantastic.
If it's not necessary, there shouldn't be any issue in excluding transgendered people from certain places in stories, yes? Like the beautiful princess who receives the big kiss at the end with the fireworks and spinning camera around her, for example.

Yeah, I'm done with you.

I think trans women should definitely have the opportunity to be the leading lady. The fact that you don't want to kiss them is completely ****** irrelevant.

[Lady Artifice]

That said, I recommend not getting too deeply bogged down in a debate with Babypuncher on this thread. I've never seen it end well. 

[BabyPuncher]

You are having a different argument from the one people you are arguing with. 
 
They are saying that a character's physical attributes do not define their worth as a character.

Tell me, what does it say when one type of character always gets the big kiss, the fireworks, the ballroom dance, the gazing into each other's eyes at sunset, the embrace in the rain...and another type always stands off to the side? Getting a line here and there, being allowed to 'exist' in the story, but always, always second class? The story is of course never rude enough to say so out loud, but it's always there.

Does that say they're of equal worth?

[vertigomez]

My understanding is that this isn't what Gomez was saying. Rather, she was suggesting that one person's level of attraction to a character cast no reflection on that character's place in a story. The assumption Babypuncher seems to be making, is that a female character's allure is a high priority to that character's creator, and if they do not have allure for him, then that creator has failed. 
 
He does not seem to factor in the possibility that a female character is not defined by their romantic and sensual appeal.

Bless this post.

[vertigomez]

Tell me, what does it say when one type of character always gets the big kiss, the fireworks, the ballroom dance, the gazing into each other's eyes at sunset, the embrace in the rain...and another type always stands off to the side? Getting a line here and there, being allowed to 'exist' in the story, but always, always second class? The story is of course never rude enough to say so out loud, but it's always there.
Does that say they're of equal worth?

It says there's something wrong with a society that denies them this.

Ugh, I said I was done...