1001 réponses à ce sujet

[Capone666]

looks like the sotry is finally getting picked up! http://www.gamespot....r/1100-6427587/

[SwobyJ]

I consider Bioware to be at the forefront of sexual diversity in gaming. However, I do leave it to others to master the implementation of this diversity. Most of the time, I regard it as relatively weak compared to what I think it could be. It gets better though. Female characters are getting better and better (or at least more of them are better in each game). Gay characters have gone past the novelty, secondary, and strangeness barrier (but still have a little more to go). Trans has a LOT to go and I personally consider Krem a rather weak character, while not nearly as bad as pretty much any other company would portray trans so there's that.

 

A good thing is that Bioware generally 'keeps up' with societal trends and liberal standards on sexuality in the West (or at least USA). It doesn't lag at it until it is clearly profitable, or until it is clearly unprofitable to not go for it. It just goes for it, whatever it thinks it can get away with (which I admit is not much sometimes, but still something). While I may sometimes disagree with the tone and content of the scenes etc, I'm glad that, for example, there's even more sex liberal/positive and more sex negative/conservative options one could pick for their stories. Options for everyone.

 

I don't think Gaider's approach to sexuality in games is the best (but I don't feel like getting into that), but he's at the same time one of the best approaches currently in the industry, or at least allowed to do bigger things in the industry. So I appreciate that.

 

They're learning. For (more or less) mainstream gaming, they're learning. The things that more conservative gamers rail on about Bioware today will be things that in 5-10 years they actually (even if only lightly) complain if it ISN'T in their games. Like by now, even many of the most hetero macho etcetc gamers might note if there's been a h-o-m-o(really, censoring?)-erasure in a story when it would have made a lot of sense to have it in/brought to forefront. That's nice to see. Trans will get their day for that, but it may take into the 2020s imo. Virtual tech that allows people to more directly take the perspective of others may also push a cultural change in that direction, but that's another thing imo haha.

 

I'm gay but I would have liked Dorian with a little less gay. That is, I'm fine enough with the companion quest itself, but it didn't give me insights on things I find much more interesting than his sexuality. Frankly, the father-relationship stuff could have been left for a romance with him and I'd have liked that. I actually felt I was intervening on something I really shouldn't have been (I was romancing IB). 

 

Krem was just kinda boring to me. But you know what? So were the rest of the Chargers. I have them saved for IB's sake, not their own. 

[OhNoWhyHow]

That's honestly my biggest issue with Krem: how achingly dull he is.  Even the interview with Gaider more or less says that the character in his place originally was just a generic mercenary dude.  Now he's "generic mercenary dude who happens to be transgendered."  I wish the first transgendered character in the game was memorable for something besides that.  They need to take an already interesting character and decide to make them transgendered rather than take a dull character and say "How can we spice them up?  I know, transgender!" 

[Legion of 1337]

That's honestly my biggest issue with Krem: how achingly dull he is.  Even the interview with Gaider more or less says that the character in his place originally was just a generic mercenary dude.  Now he's "generic mercenary dude who happens to be transgendered."  I wish the first transgendered character in the game was memorable for something besides that.  They need to take an already interesting character and decide to make them transgendered rather than take a dull character and say "How can we spice them up?  I know, transgender!" 

When diversity is decided via checklist, making a character and then having them just happen to be X sexuality is unlikely to happen. I mean FFS Dorian, as good as he is, wasn't written and then just made gay on a whim (though I suspect Sera WAS, and that's a step in the right direction). Gaider specifically wrote him with the idea he would be gay, and you can tell he wrote him around the idea of him being gay because he still exhibits stereotypical "gay" attributes (Since Gaider is gay I suspect this is not due to actual stereotyping but the fact Gaider himself probably possesses these traits) and his personal quest is mostly about him being gay, despite what others insist.

[OhNoWhyHow]

I really don't care if a character is designed to be gay from the drawing board.  This may be the case with Dorian, but he still has an interesting personality and a perspective we haven't seen before (non mustache-twirler Tevinter mage) that he would still have whether he was gay or not.  In and of itself, their sexuality should have as little bearing on the overall character as their biological sex has or their hair color.

 

My point is that a character's race/sex/gender/sexuality shouldn't be what makes them interesting or meaningful as a character, especially if that's the only thing making them so.

 

Dorian would still be a completely interesting, viable character if he was straight instead. 

 

If Krem wasn't transgendered he would literally be nothing but "this mercenary dude."

 

*Edit* A better way of putting it might be that if the only descriptive you can come up with for a character is their race/sex/gender/sexuality, they are probably pretty dull. 

[Legion of 1337]

I really don't care if a character is designed to be gay from the drawing board.  This may be the case with Dorian, but he still has an interesting personality and a perspective we haven't seen before (non mustache-twirler Tevinter mage) that he would still have whether he was gay or not.  In and of itself, their sexuality should have as little bearing on the overall character as their biological sex has or their hair color.

 

My point is that a character's race/sex/gender/sexuality shouldn't be what makes them interesting or meaningful as a character, especially if that's the only thing making them so.

 

Dorian would still be a completely interesting, viable character if he was straight instead. 

 

If Krem wasn't transgendered he would literally be nothing but "this mercenary dude."

 

*Edit* A better way of putting it might be that if the only descriptive you can come up with for a character is their race/sex/gender/sexuality, they are probably pretty dull. 

That's why it's obvious Krem is only there to be trans. You can't talk to any of the other Chargers, only Krem, but Krem has nothing interesting to say. It's fine if Krem is trans, but just have him be another one of the Chargers. The fact you can only talk to Krem and not the rest makes the tokenism blatantly obvious.

[In Exile]

When diversity is decided via checklist, making a character and then having them just happen to be X sexuality is unlikely to happen. I mean FFS Dorian, as good as he is, wasn't written and then just made gay on a whim (though I suspect Sera WAS, and that's a step in the right direction). Gaider specifically wrote him with the idea he would be gay, and you can tell he wrote him around the idea of him being gay because he still exhibits stereotypical "gay" attributes (Since Gaider is gay I suspect this is not due to actual stereotyping but the fact Gaider himself probably possesses these traits) and his personal quest is mostly about him being gay, despite what others insist.

I don't think you get how character writing works for minor characters. Oftentimes you'll be bouncing ideas off the wall to make a minor background figure a bit more interesting. And it can get silly. Stuff like "What if we made him visually interesting? Maybe a big mustache?" or "How about a quirk?" Etc.

The IB has a huge team of outcasts. Every single NPC in the chargers is a social outcast in their own society. They decided to use "gender identity" as the thing that makes Krem an outcast when Krem already had a role in the story as the IBs morality pet. That's outright the opposite of a checklist.

[WikipediaBrown]

Wasn't there supposed to be several interviews with Gaider and Weekes? Have they not released them yet or anyone know when they are going to be published? 

[Legion of 1337]

I don't think you get how character writing works for minor characters. Oftentimes you'll be bouncing ideas off the wall to make a minor background figure a bit more interesting. And it can get silly. Stuff like "What if we made him visually interesting? Maybe a big mustache?" or "How about a quirk?" Etc.

The IB has a huge team of outcasts. Every single NPC in the chargers is a social outcast in their own society. They decided to use "gender identity" as the thing that makes Krem an outcast when Krem already had a role in the story as the IBs morality pet. That's outright the opposite of a checklist.

This would be true, if A) Krem were otherwise invisible, like the rest of the chargers; or You could talk to the other chargers. But you can't.

 

Again, I'm not against Krem existing, or being trans. I'm pointing out that since Krem is singled out for attention among the other Chargers with no real justification, it seems logical to conclude this emphasis was simply to convey "Hey, we have a trans character everybody", and that's it.

[Capone666]

Wasn't there supposed to be several interviews with Gaider and Weekes? Have they not released them yet or anyone know when they are going to be published? 

 

Sorry it's taking a while to compile 

[WikipediaBrown]

Sorry it's taking a while to compile 

Thanks for answering. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Well. Guess we know which race will be inventing the first programming language of Thedas!. Maybe that's why they're so technically advanced? They're robots they think in IF ... THEN statements?

Doesn't everyone do this? How else can we understand meaning?

[AlanC9]

This would be true, if A) Krem were otherwise invisible, like the rest of the chargers; or You could talk to the other chargers. But you can't.
 
Again, I'm not against Krem existing, or being trans. I'm pointing out that since Krem is singled out for attention among the other Chargers with no real justification, it seems logical to conclude this emphasis was simply to convey "Hey, we have a trans character everybody", and that's it.

Characters need "justification"?

I'm also not sure your "seems logical" works. I guess if your mind jumps to that conclusion, then it jumps, but mine didn't.

Why wouldn't they write Krem the way they did because it's interesting?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I know that boat has kind of sailed, but I think it might be interesting to add the Qunari's apparent view on gender might not be so crazy as it seems. As in, humans have done it.

In ancient Egypt, Hatsheptsut took on male attributes and was identified as male because a woman couldn't possibly be a pharaoh.

A nine year-old girl was crowned Jadwiga I, King of Poland, to demonstrate that she ruled outright, rather than as someone's consort.

[Legion of 1337]

Characters need "justification"?

I'm also not sure your "seems logical" works. I guess if your mind jumps to that conclusion, then it jumps, but mine didn't.

Why wouldn't they write Krem the way they did because it's interesting?

Unless you think representing a sexual minority is itself a justification.

 

I don't because I think it's superficial, but whatever floats your boat. Won't stop me from noticing the artificiality of it.

[9TailsFox]

Characters need "justification"?

I'm also not sure your "seems logical" works. I guess if your mind jumps to that conclusion, then it jumps, but mine didn't.

Why wouldn't they write Krem the way they did because it's interesting?

Yes it does. Like in mage quest in Redcliffe. Alistair just walks in. Why? He just walk in say one line and leaves. It superficial and exist only for the sake of cameo. Same Krem she have nothing to say. Iron bull can say everything. Why Krem we have other chargers, Dalish mage I mean archer thousand times more interesting then Krem and we see her only once.

[QuarianOtter]

Yes it does. Like in mage quest in Redcliffe. Alistair just walks in. Why? He just walk in say one line and leaves. It superficial and exist only for the sake of cameo. Same Krem she have nothing to say. Iron bull can say everything. Why Krem we have other chargers, Dalish mage I mean archer thousand times more interesting then Krem and we see her only once.

 

We only see him once.

[AresKeith]

That's why it's obvious Krem is only there to be trans. You can't talk to any of the other Chargers, only Krem, but Krem has nothing interesting to say. It's fine if Krem is trans, but just have him be another one of the Chargers. The fact you can only talk to Krem and not the rest makes the tokenism blatantly obvious.

 

Krem is the second in command of the Chargers, he's no different than any other side character you talk to at Haven/Skyhold

[esper]

Krem is there to humanize the chargers and personally I would swap him out with Iron Bull on the team any day. (I like his stories better and I like his personality better).

[AlanC9]

Yes it does. Like in mage quest in Redcliffe. Alistair just walks in. Why? He just walk in say one line and leaves. It superficial and exist only for the sake of cameo. Same Krem she have nothing to say. Iron bull can say everything. Why Krem we have other chargers, Dalish mage I mean archer thousand times more interesting then Krem and we see her only once.

The first line means that characters do need justification? The meaning of the "it" there isn't clear. (Your English is a little sloppy today.)

I'm not quite sure what you're proposing. That Krem's wordcount should be broken up among several different Chargers? I guess it would work, but I don't see how it's better.

[AlanC9]

Unless you think representing a sexual minority is itself a justification.

My point was that justification isn't a useful concept, not that this was sufficient justification. I thought that expressing confusion over the concept of justification would make that point, but I can see I was wrong. I shouldn't have shorthanded that.
 

I don't because I think it's superficial, but whatever floats your boat. Won't stop me from noticing the artificiality of it.

Everything's artificial; the whole game is written, as you know. Any character in Krem's position would have to have some reason written for being an outcast. What's wrong with this one, again? Among other things, it gives us insight into how the qunari handle gender issues, which cleans up some confusion left over from Sten's interactions with a female Warden in DA:O. Remember, we got here because Weekes thought it might be cool, and the team realized that doing this raised interesting questions.

[DuskWanderer]

Yes it does. Like in mage quest in Redcliffe. Alistair just walks in. Why? He just walk in say one line and leaves. It superficial and exist only for the sake of cameo. Same Krem she have nothing to say. Iron bull can say everything. Why Krem we have other chargers, Dalish mage I mean archer thousand times more interesting then Krem and we see her only once.

 

Yep. The Chargers were extremely interesting, and although the flavor text of the mission was interesting, Krem felt like nothing more than tokenism (Gaider even seemed to admit it)

 

That's a problem. If this is what BioWARE thinks of when they're writing "interesting" characters: Okay, but generic mercenaries whose only gimmick is being this orientation or that, they can count me out. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

That's why it's obvious Krem is only there to be trans. You can't talk to any of the other Chargers, only Krem, but Krem has nothing interesting to say. It's fine if Krem is trans, but just have him be another one of the Chargers. The fact you can only talk to Krem and not the rest makes the tokenism blatantly obvious.

Because Krem is obviously the second in command of the Chargers, relaying Bull's orders during his personal quest and is the ''face'' of the Chargers (which IB isn't because he's a bigger character than that). It's that simple. RPGs are chock full of characters who are ''just there'' and don't possess any particular personality quirks, existing only to be X's number 2. I am playing TW3 currently and could point out several of them Why's it suddenly bad because it's Krem now?

[In Exile]

Yep. The Chargers were extremely interesting, and although the flavor text of the mission was interesting, Krem felt like nothing more than tokenism (Gaider even seemed to admit it)

That's a problem. If this is what BioWARE thinks of when they're writing "interesting" characters: Okay, but generic mercenaries whose only gimmick is being this orientation or that, they can count me out.

How is this different from a generic mercenary who's gimmick is that her obvious magic staff is a bow? Each charger is a gimmick. They're all outcasts. Krem is as much of a token character as Dalish is a token elf mage.

[DuskWanderer]

I really don't care if a character is designed to be gay from the drawing board.  This may be the case with Dorian, but he still has an interesting personality and a perspective we haven't seen before (non mustache-twirler Tevinter mage) that he would still have whether he was gay or not.  In and of itself, their sexuality should have as little bearing on the overall character as their biological sex has or their hair color.

 

My point is that a character's race/sex/gender/sexuality shouldn't be what makes them interesting or meaningful as a character, especially if that's the only thing making them so.

 

Dorian would still be a completely interesting, viable character if he was straight instead. 

 

If Krem wasn't transgendered he would literally be nothing but "this mercenary dude."

 

*Edit* A better way of putting it might be that if the only descriptive you can come up with for a character is their race/sex/gender/sexuality, they are probably pretty dull. 

 

Eh, Dorian's relationship with Tevinter is nothing more than your token Heroic Orc. Better can be done.