1001 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Because Krem is obviously the second in command of the Chargers, relaying Bull's orders during his personal quest and is the ''face'' of the Chargers (which IB isn't because he's a bigger character than that). It's that simple. RPGs are chock full of characters who are ''just there'' and don't possess any particular personality quirks, existing only to be X's number 2. I am playing TW3 currently and could point out several of them Why's it suddenly bad because it's Krem now?

Krem has a bigger role than that: he's the morality pet. He's there to be the IBs good friend (hence why he features in cinematic scenes) so that you will feel that the IB is effectively impacted by Demands of the Qun. That's more purpose than someone like Bianca has in DAI.

[DuskWanderer]

How is this different from a generic mercenary who's gimmick is that her obvious magic staff is a bow? Each charger is a gimmick. They're all outcasts. Krem is as much of a token character as Dalish is a token elf mage.

 

A.) Because Dalish was actually funny, as was her banter.

 

B.) Dalish was only in one scene, and not interactable beside that point. That was really all you needed.

 

C.) Dalish's backstory was completely independent of her personality. 

[In Exile]

A.) Because Dalish was actually funny, as was her banter.

B.) Dalish was only in one scene, and not interactable beside that point. That was really all you needed.

C.) Dalish's backstory was completely independent of her personality.

1. "I liked the character so the inclusion was justified" is nonsense reasoning.

2. Dalish actually had a speaking part in two scenes and it was the same one-note about the bow/staff.

3. What does this even mean? No one's personality is influenced by their background. Dalish's "personality" was 100% defined by her background which was that she was a Dalish mage kicked out by her clan. Her only lines are about how she's totally not a Dalish mage.

4. Krem's back story has nothing to do with his "personality" unless you think being transgendered ties in with how serious or dour someone is as a person. And if you think that, well, go meet people.

[DuskWanderer]

1. "I liked the character so the inclusion was justified" is nonsense reasoning.

2. Dalish actually had a speaking part in two scenes and it was the same one-note about the bow/staff.

3. What does this even mean? No one's personality is influenced by their background. Dalish's "personality" was 100% defined by her background which was that she was a Dalish mage kicked out by her clan. Her only lines are about how she's totally not a Dalish mage.

4. Krem's back story has nothing to do with his "personality" unless you think being transgendered ties in with how serious or dour someone is as a person. And if you think that, well, go meet people.

 

As a published writer, let me give you a free bit of advice: The goal is to write characters the audience enjoys. 

 

Dalish had one "line" about the staff in another scene, and she was not interactable

 

Where, exactly, was Dalish's personality defined by her getting kicked out of her clan. She could have been a Circle mage and the story wouldn't have changed. 

 

Krem's backstory is all about being trans, and lying about gender in order to be seen as a man. That's the only personality trait Krem has. For someone who's in far more scenes than Dalish and the supposed face of the Chargers, being generic mercenary just trans doesn't cut it.

[In Exile]

As a published writer, let me give you a free bit of advice: The goal is to write characters the audience enjoys.

Dalish had one "line" about the staff in another scene, and she was not interactable

Where, exactly, was Dalish's personality defined by her getting kicked out of her clan. She could have been a Circle mage and the story wouldn't have changed.

Krem's backstory is all about being trans, and lying about gender in order to be seen as a man. That's the only personality trait Krem has. For someone who's in far more scenes than Dalish and the supposed face of the Chargers, being generic mercenary just trans doesn't cut it.

Let's say I believe you're a "published writer" (as if that means anything; lots of "published writing" is hot garbage). The fact that some people like a character can't possibly justify the inclusion of that character. More importantly, there are other people who like Krem as a character. Your subjective like or dislike is irrelevant.

Two - Dalish couldn't actually be a Circle mage. Her lines are all about how her staff is a special elven bow. If she were a Circle mage (1) she couldn't hide the fact she was a mage because she would definitionally be one and (2) there would be no way for her to theoretically know how to use a bow, since there's no stereotype of mages using bows (and martial training for mages is outlawed if DAO is any indication). I'm kind of impressed you've managed to miss the point of a character who is literally defined by a one-note joke and two lines.

Three: Krems backstory is actually defined by being a non-mage from Tevinter who happens to be somewhat poor. His gender is more of an issue than a quirk because of Tevinter military policy.

And most importantly you never have to be exposed to that back story. It only comes up if *you ask Krem about his back story*.

[KaiserShep]

As a published writer, let me give you a free bit of advice: The goal is to write characters the audience enjoys. 

 

Man, isn't that kind of a given? It's a good thing this advice was free...

[Captain Wiseass]

As a published writer, let me give you a free bit of advice: The goal is to write characters the audience enjoys. 

As an also-published writer, let me give you a free bit of advice: Being condescending to people generally doesn't dispose them to agree with you.

[9TailsFox]

How is this different from a generic mercenary who's gimmick is that her obvious magic staff is a bow? Each charger is a gimmick. They're all outcasts. Krem is as much of a token character as Dalish is a token elf mage.

Exactly we don't need t have charger NPC, Krem Dalish ... doesn't mater Charger exist only to expend iron bulls character. They all can just die. Krem is irrelevant but we still have him as NPC we can talk. All other chargers we meet only once in one cut-scene and it's enough. Krem is only to say "look look I am different"

[DuskWanderer]

As an also-published writer, let me give you a free bit of advice: Being condescending to people generally doesn't dispose them to agree with you.

 

He already doesn't agree with me, and is deadset on worshipping Krem. I see no reason to be polite for his sake.

[In Exile]

He already doesn't agree with me, and is deadset on worshipping Krem. I see no reason to be polite for his sake.

"Worshipping" Krem? I'm not especially fond of his character. I just don't think he's a token character, because he has a role in the plot quite separate from his gender identity and his experience fits with the motif of the chargers being outcasts. His reveal is totally on the nose and the Inquisitor's dialogue is a bit silly, but that's a long way from an accusation of being a token character.

[DuskWanderer]

Let's say I believe you're a "published writer" (as if that means anything; lots of "published writing" is hot garbage). The fact that some people like a character can't possibly justify the inclusion of that character. More importantly, there are other people who like Krem as a character. Your subjective like or dislike is irrelevant.

Two - Dalish couldn't actually be a Circle mage. Her lines are all about how her staff is a special elven bow. If she were a Circle mage (1) she couldn't hide the fact she was a mage because she would definitionally be one and (2) there would be no way for her to theoretically know how to use a bow, since there's no stereotype of mages using bows (and martial training for mages is outlawed if DAO is any indication). I'm kind of impressed you've managed to miss the point of a character who is literally defined by a one-note joke and two lines.

Three: Krems backstory is actually defined by being a non-mage from Tevinter who happens to be somewhat poor. His gender is more of an issue than a quirk because of Tevinter military policy.

And most importantly you never have to be exposed to that back story. It only comes up if *you ask Krem about his back story*.

 

1.) Given that Dalish is significantly more popular than Krem, despite having less screen time, I'd have to disagree. Tis the same with Movran the Under. Small role, but hilariously fun to watch.

 

2.) I didn't miss the point. She also never describes her trick as a Dalish one, but an elven one. Dalish is also "definitely" a mage even when she's Dalish. Remember, all mages are apostates at this point, Leliana states as such. There is no indication that martial training is outlawed for mages, other than the fact that they use staves.

 

3.) Krem's story has nothing to do with being a non-mage. Krem never brings up not being a mage. 

 

4.) Same with Dalish, she only says she's not a mage if you don't talk to her.

 

 

I mean, I really get it, you love Krem. Good for you. Stop bashing a character that was fun just because we don't like the character you like

[DuskWanderer]

"Worshipping" Krem? I'm not especially fond of his character. I just don't think he's a token character, because he has a role in the plot quite separate from his gender identity and his experience fits with the motif of the chargers being outcasts. His reveal is totally on the nose and the Inquisitor's dialogue is a bit silly, but that's a long way from an accusation of being a token character.

 

When compared to Rocky, Dalish, and Skinner, Krem has no personality at all. Even Gaider admits this, that's why they did that trans crap. They tried to make a boring character interesting by saying "Hey look, trans!" and it just ended up being token pandering.

 

Krem is hardly the only offender: Dorian's worse eight ways to Sunday. But Krem is nothing more than a generic mercenary. You just have to accept it. 

[In Exile]

I'm going to stop participanting now. If your takeaway is that I like Krem and don't find Dalish hilarious, then clearly I have failed at the most basic form of communication.

[AresKeith]

As a published writer, let me give you a free bit of advice: The goal is to write characters the audience enjoys. 

 

Implying everyone is going to enjoy every character

[AlanC9]

When compared to Rocky, Dalish, and Skinner, Krem has no personality at all. Even Gaider admits this, that's why they did that trans crap. They tried to make a boring character interesting by saying "Hey look, trans!" and it just ended up being token pandering.

Are you sure "trans crap" is your best rhetorical play there? It makes it sound like you're hostile to the nature if the content, and that's counterproductive to your case.

[WikipediaBrown]

 

We talked to our VO department if they'd be willing to work with that. Because it's like, can we find a transgender voice actor? Possibly – now certainly more than before. But, whether a voice actor, one that is signed up with a voice agent that we can deal with. Is that an option?

 

I think if we do something like that again, we need – actually, not need. That's a bad word. I think the next step would be to see if we could actually find a transgender performer. I think that should be our first stop, at least to see if that's an option. I don't actually know what the hurdles are.

 

If Bioware wants to put a trans character in the game to appeal to LGBT gamers fine, it's their game they can do what they want. Can we not pretend that there is a double standard though? 

 

Why is it so important to have a transgender voice actor for a trans character, but casting Indira Varma (an Indian/Swiss actress) to portray Vivienne, a black woman, is just fine? Just seems a little odd to me if you are going to claim you're all about "diversity" and "representation" and can't find a single black actress...

 

 

(I thought both actresses did a terrific job, I'm just trying to make a point.) 

[DuskWanderer]

Are you sure "trans crap" is your best rhetorical play there? It makes it sound like you're hostile to the nature if the content, and that's counterproductive to your case.

 

I simply do not like the idea that making a trans character immediately makes someone interesting. As was stated earlier, if the only thing you can say about a character is "He's trans!" then, honestly, the character is a failure.

[AlanC9]

Why is it so important to have a transgender voice actor for a trans character, but casting Indira Varma (an Indian/Swiss actress) to portray Vivienne, a black woman, is just fine? Just seems a little odd to me if you are going to claim you're all about "diversity" and "representation" and can't find a single black actress...

It's an interesting question. I don't see the logic of it either.

[AlanC9]

I simply do not like the idea that making a trans character immediately makes someone interesting. As was stated earlier, if the only thing you can say about a character is "He's trans!" then, honestly, the character is a failure.

That's why I said that "trans crap" was a bad rhetorical move for you. It makes you sound like one of those guys who gets his panties in a twist over trans people.

[In Exile]

Why is it so important to have a transgender voice actor for a trans character, but casting Indira Varma (an Indian/Swiss actress) to portray Vivienne, a black woman, is just fine? Just seems a little odd to me if you are going to claim you're all about "diversity" and "representation" and can't find a single black actress...

 

It is a bit weird, but I figure that casting a woman for Krem is a bit of a necessity, since the character called for a female voice with a deep affect, vs. Vivenne calling for a refined British accent. I also wonder to what extent views on diversity at Bioware are influenced by being in Canada (where there are different racial issues from the US, esp. re: black/white/latino which predominates US culture). 

[WikipediaBrown]

It is a bit weird, but I figure that casting a woman for Krem is a bit of a necessity, since the character called for a female voice with a deep affect, vs. Vivenne calling for a refined British accent. I also wonder to what extent views on diversity at Bioware are influenced by being in Canada (where there are different racial issues from the US, esp. re: black/white/latino which predominates US culture). 

There are plenty of black British voice actresses, but I get what you are saying.   Yes, having Krem voiced by a woman makes sense, because having a trans person that has taken testosterone deepens the voice way too much. That's why I questioned the necessity of looking for trans actors in the future to play trans characters when there are no hormone injections or magic spells in Thedas. 

[BansheeOwnage]

There are plenty of black British voice actresses, but I get what you are saying.   Yes, having Krem voiced by a woman makes sense, because having a trans person that has taken testosterone deepens the voice way too much. That's why I questioned the necessity of looking for trans actors in the future to play trans characters when there are no hormone injections or magic spells in Thedas. 

I'd assume they'd look for a transgender VA if they have Maevaris or another transwoman in a game. Like you said, it's not required and even counter-productive for a transman.

[Wyvernet]

This is how I see it: Krem is a quest-giver, and like other people hanging around the Inquisition, such as Harritt or Threnn, he will give you his backstory if you ask for it. He just has more backstory because his life was more interesting and it reveals things about Tevinter culture. For example, slavery is ruining things for paid lower class people, some people willingly sell themselves into slavery, and it is illegal to 'lie' on military documents (which is punishable by execution or slavery).

[KaiserShep]

I simply do not like the idea that making a trans character immediately makes someone interesting. As was stated earlier, if the only thing you can say about a character is "He's trans!" then, honestly, the character is a failure.

 

The problem here is that this seems more a takeaway from what fans on the forum like to fixate on, more than what we actually see in practice in the game. You can talk to Krem at some length without ever touching on this subject, but I'm not really sure what people are looking for when it comes to the character's personality, considering how minor a role he really has. We get to see his relationship with Bull at couple of times, and like the rest of the Chargers, his character is reflected by the other members of the group, Bull in particular, with whom he appears to be the alter ego. Of course, all of this is putting aside that Krem being a trans is only half of what ties into the shared theme of being outcast among the Chargers, since Maevaris doesn't have to worry about that sort of thing.

[Panda]

If Bioware wants to put a trans character in the game to appeal to LGBT gamers fine, it's their game they can do what they want. Can we not pretend that there is a double standard though? 

 

Why is it so important to have a transgender voice actor for a trans character, but casting Indira Varma (an Indian/Swiss actress) to portray Vivienne, a black woman, is just fine? Just seems a little odd to me if you are going to claim you're all about "diversity" and "representation" and can't find a single black actress...

 

 

(I thought both actresses did a terrific job, I'm just trying to make a point.) 

 

There is also people who think PoC characters should be voiced by person who is same race as then. However I don't find either case so important, voice actor is just voice of the character after all. Like Bart Simpsons voice actor is adult woman so is Edward Elrics (in original language) and so on so I don't see that as important.

 

Although maybe transman could have done better job with Krem's voice than Hale? I didn't personally see problem with his voice, but some say that they thought Krem was either woman or teenager boy, because of it.