1001 réponses à ce sujet

[Malthier]

1.) Given that Dalish is significantly more popular than Krem, 

 

No. 

 

 

I mean, I really get it, you love Krem. Good for you. Stop bashing a character that was fun just because we don't like the character you like

 

 

This post may lead to an irony overdose

[Dieb]

Why is it so important to have a transgender voice actor for a trans character, but casting Indira Varma (an Indian/Swiss actress) to portray Vivienne, a black woman, is just fine? Just seems a little odd to me if you are going to claim you're all about "diversity" and "representation" and can't find a single black actress...

 

Uhm... I don't think black people are at the same level of acceptance compared to the LBGT community. I'd go as far as saying I'd feel uncomfortably presumptuous to even suggest that - being allowed to get married and not being considered criminals in some countries because of the way we were born is an advantage.

 

Casting the actress alone is primarily a sign. Which in this case & state of affairs, is sadly still a necessity.

[WikipediaBrown]

Uhm... I don't think black people are at the same level of acceptance compared to the LBGT community. I'd go as far as saying I'd feel uncomfortably presumptuous to even suggest that - being allowed to get married and not being considered criminals in some countries because of the way we were born is an advantage.

 

Casting the actress alone is primarily a sign. Which in this case & state of affairs, is sadly still a necessity.

 

I'm not a tumblr SJW crusader trying to right all the wrongs of the world from my desk chair, I'm just trying to make a point that if they are going to go out of their way to find an hire a transgender person for a role then they can do the same for other minorities, or they could just hire the best person for the job regardless of gender identity or race in all circumstances? 

 

I'm not going to engage in a privilege-off, few people have it easy in life regardless of race, sexuality, gender, etc. I'm just saying that fair is fair.

[Dieb]

Nah, I wasn't implying that either.

 

My point is, (it is my humble assumption) they were hiring a trans actor for a trans character, because they are taking a stand for trans folks in this very instance in particular. And I find nothing wrong with that for once; since they definitely are the least represented groups of all. I know it's not a competition, I just feel no need for overcorrection towards the opposite.

[WikipediaBrown]

Nah, I wasn't implying that either.

 

My point is, (it is my humble assumption) they were hiring a trans actor for a trans character, because they are taking a stand for trans folks in this very instance in particular. And I find nothing wrong with that for once; since they definitely are the least represented groups of all. I know it's not a competition, I just feel no need for overcorrection towards the opposite.

I get what you are saying.

 

Well they used Jennifer Hale(FemShep) for Krem, who as far as I know is not a trans person? I think there was some backlash against that (as there is backlash anytime anything happens on the internet ever). The interview mentions that Bioware was looking to get a trans actor for future trans characters. I'm just saying if they feel the need to get a trans voice actor to voice a trans person in the future I would like to also see that type of representation across the board. 

[daveliam]

I've never understood the outrage that people have about who voices which character.  I could not care less if Vivienne's VA is black or Dorian's VA is gay or Bull's VA has giant bull horns.  I can understand the origins of the concern:  back when Hollywood was a white exclusive club and they would take white actors and put them in blackface or 'yellowface' in order to play minority characters simply because actors of other races were excluded from contention.  But I honestly don't see the problem with not having gay, lesbian, trans, etc actors for similar characters today.  And especially in voice acting, given that the actor isn't even shown.  Maybe I'm missing something (I'll admit that I might be), but it just seems an odd thing to argue about when the entire point of the gig is acting.

[WikipediaBrown]

I've never understood the outrage that people have about who voices which character.  I could not care less if Vivienne's VA is black or Dorian's VA is gay or Bull's VA has giant bull horns.  I can understand the origins of the concern:  back when Hollywood was a white exclusive club and they would take white actors and put them in blackface or 'yellowface' in order to play minority characters simply because actors of other races were excluded from contention.  But I honestly don't see the problem with not having gay, lesbian, trans, etc actors for similar characters today.  And especially in voice acting, given that the actor isn't even shown.  Maybe I'm missing something (I'll admit that I might be), but it just seems an odd thing to argue about when the entire point of the gig is acting.

 

I thought Indira Varma as Vivienne was perfection, and Jennifer Hale's great voice as Krem was one of the first things that stood out for me when meeting the character in the game (I never played ME, so I didn't recognize the actor.)

 

I have absolutely no problem with just casting the best person for the job as they always have done. If they decide to go in a different direction and say that trans actors are necessary to portray trans characters, then I don't think there is anything wrong with asking them to, for example, cut a black woman a check to play a black character either. 

 

(Sorry for monopolizing the thread, back to your regularly scheduled program.) 

[Ieldra]

I have absolutely no problem with just casting the best person for the job as they always have done. If they decide to go in a different direction and say that trans actors are necessary to portray trans characters, then I don't think there is anything wrong with asking them to, for example, cut a black woman a check to play a black character either. 

I would have a problem with it if the minority status is the primary requirement and quality comes second.

 

I also find it troublesome for a different reason. You see, fairness is a universal standard, and the final goal of all those minority movements should be "nobody cares if you're <insert minority trait of your choice>" outside of personal relationships where that trait may become important for unavoidable reasons. Instead, people end up enshrining their minority-defining differences as something with special value. To some degree, this is necessary because in order to become accepted, these minorities need to become visible first, but I often get the impression that some people keep on enshrining the differences as an end in itself and forget that the goal is "It doesn't matter", and that tends to end up as just another kind of exclusivity-centered ideology of which there are already more than enough in the world.

[Dieb]

I would have a problem with it if the minority status is the primary requirement and quality comes second.

 

I disagree.

 

I found it a very brave move to boldly present a representative of the Jessica Chobot community to the world. It definitely raised awareness and acceptance of Jessica Chobots all over the world.

[OhNoWhyHow]

The problem here is that this seems more a takeaway from what fans on the forum like to fixate on, more than what we actually see in practice in the game. You can talk to Krem at some length without ever touching on this subject, but I'm not really sure what people are looking for when it comes to the character's personality, considering how minor a role he really has. We get to see his relationship with Bull at couple of times, and like the rest of the Chargers, his character is reflected by the other members of the group, Bull in particular, with whom he appears to be the alter ego. Of course, all of this is putting aside that Krem being a trans is only half of what ties into the shared theme of being outcast among the Chargers, since Maevaris doesn't have to worry about that sort of thing.

 

Since I'm the one that posted that original comment, I'll go ahead and clarify what I meant by it.  I don't really expect anything more from Krem because Krem just isn't that important in the grand scheme of DA.  He's a tertiary character at best who provides a bit more characterization for Iron Bull and some exposition on lore.

 

My complaint is that if a transgendered character was to be put in, I wish they were a primary or secondary character.  The reason things are different for Krem than a comparable tertiary character (Dalish say) is that Krem is addressing a RL representation issue whereas Dalish is a completely made up category of person: Dalish elf mage.

 

It would be like if the only black person Bioware put in the game was horsemaster Dennet, and Vivienne didn't exist.  For me at least, it cheapens the whole purpose of addressing a RL issue and does make it seem more like check in box tokenism.     

[OhNoWhyHow]

I've never understood the outrage that people have about who voices which character.  I could not care less if Vivienne's VA is black or Dorian's VA is gay or Bull's VA has giant bull horns.  I can understand the origins of the concern:  back when Hollywood was a white exclusive club and they would take white actors and put them in blackface or 'yellowface' in order to play minority characters simply because actors of other races were excluded from contention.  But I honestly don't see the problem with not having gay, lesbian, trans, etc actors for similar characters today.  And especially in voice acting, given that the actor isn't even shown.  Maybe I'm missing something (I'll admit that I might be), but it just seems an odd thing to argue about when the entire point of the gig is acting.

 

I don't get the issue either so long as the VA gets the accents right.  That part does matter.  I'm Southern and thoroughly sick of many Southern characters' accents sounding either like Foghorn Leghorn or Mater from Cars.

[WikipediaBrown]

I don't get the issue either so long as the VA gets the accents right.  That part does matter.  I'm Southern and thoroughly sick of many Southern characters' accents sounding either like Foghorn Leghorn or Mater from Cars.

 

Ha, true! Well luckily (or unluckily) Southern accents don't show up much in fantasy genre games. When I played Bound By Flame I almost fell out of my chair in shock hearing one. The character Private Bumpkin is like a cross between Elvis and Forrest Gump, it was...something else.  https://youtu.be/G3-Ifv0smZk?t=85

[In Exile]

I would have a problem with it if the minority status is the primary requirement and quality comes second.

 

I also find it troublesome for a different reason. You see, fairness is a universal standard, and the final goal of all those minority movements should be "nobody cares if you're <insert minority trait of your choice>" outside of personal relationships where that trait may become important for unavoidable reasons. Instead, people end up enshrining their minority-defining differences as something with special value. To some degree, this is necessary because in order to become accepted, these minorities need to become visible first, but I often get the impression that some people keep on enshrining the differences as an end in itself and forget that the goal is "It doesn't matter", and that tends to end up as just another kind of exclusivity-centered ideology of which there are already more than enough in the world.

 

I think you need to google substantive equality. Advocacy groups aren't exactly a paragon of intellectual purity - you'll see advocacy for a subset of the population like with any other lobby group and to be honest it's a bit silly to expect small groups to always be consistent on big ticket policy items (e.g. asking LGBT advocacy groups when it comes to media representation to simultaneously be concerned about race issues). 

 

At the same time, you can't just treat things that are unalike as being alike based on a superficial feature and call it equal. People don't start from the same place. People aren't equal. That's why something like communism is a purely fantasy from a conceptual level: people aren't equal - and they wouldn't be equal just in virtue of their natural abilities even if we could take away other social accidents of status and privilege - and we, as a society, need to decide what to do about it. 

 

Having different groups advocate for specialized interests isn't an issue. The issue is that we don't have a conversation about it: we have a chest-thumping echo chamber where we all privilege ideology over practical solutions. 

[In Exile]

It would be like if the only black person Bioware put in the game was horsemaster Dennet, and Vivienne didn't exist.  For me at least, it cheapens the whole purpose of addressing a RL issue and does make it seem more like check in box tokenism.     

 

But that's not what "box tokenism" is as a term. A "token" character is one whose inclusion is solely to just have "diversity". Krem isn't there for that issue. Krem is part of the story in the same way Dorian is, which is to say that all the plot justification is largely independent from the supposed "hot-button" issue IRL. 

[OhNoWhyHow]

But that's not what "box tokenism" is as a term. A "token" character is one whose inclusion is solely to just have "diversity". Krem isn't there for that issue. Krem is part of the story in the same way Dorian is, which is to say that all the plot justification is largely independent from the supposed "hot-button" issue IRL. 

 

I dunno.  Taking a largely insignificant preexisting character and sticking "diverse" traits on them doesn't seem functionally much different than creating a largely insignificant character with diverse traits from the ground up.

 

Either way you are left with a largely insignificant character who's major defining attribute is that they are diverse, and who was given diverse traits principally as a redress for a representation problem.  

 

That the character fulfills some minor plot function is for me irrelevant.  If Krem fulfilled *no* function, than he shouldn't be in the game at all, let alone transgendered. 

[daveliam]

I think it's slightly disingenuous to portray Krem as offering nothing but being transgender.  Yes, it's the most memorable of his traits, but for a fairly minor quest giver character, he's got other things going on.  We know what his personality is like from his relationship with Bull and we gain interesting insight on Tevinter that we didn't know prior.  The fact that his gender identity is related to both of those things makes people misinterpret it as only being about his gender identity. 

 

I don't think he's a fascinatingly deep character or anything.  He's a somewhat dull minor character.  I think he's vastly overrated by many of his fans who try to make him into more than he is, but I also think unfairly villainized by many of his haters for being less than he is as well. 

 

It's an interesting 'damned if they do; damned if they don't situation'.  If Krem's gender identity is highlighted then he's a token and it's forced.  If it's not, then he's a token and it's forced. 

[OhNoWhyHow]

My underlying issue is that Krem was apparently made transgender to "unboring" him.  He was always going to be ridiculously scrutinized by way of being Bioware's first in-game transgender character.  I suppose that makes their caution in not making him a bigger, more important character understandable.  I just wish there was more to him than "this character who would be utterly forgettable if he wasn't transgendered."  At the end of the day, it's always going to be a matter of personal taste. 

[In Exile]

My underlying issue is that Krem was apparently made transgender to "unboring" him. He was always going to be ridiculously scrutinized by way of being Bioware's first in-game transgender character. I suppose that makes their caution in not making him a bigger, more important character understandable. I just wish there was more to him than "this character who would be utterly forgettable if he wasn't transgendered." At the end of the day, it's always going to be a matter of personal taste.

That's a bit like saying Varric would be utterly forgettable if he weren't really funny. And you kind of DO see that in DAI.

[KaiserShep]

My underlying issue is that Krem was apparently made transgender to "unboring" him.  He was always going to be ridiculously scrutinized by way of being Bioware's first in-game transgender character.  I suppose that makes their caution in not making him a bigger, more important character understandable.  I just wish there was more to him than "this character who would be utterly forgettable if he wasn't transgendered."  At the end of the day, it's always going to be a matter of personal taste. 

 

I suspect Krem will be remembered mostly for something else entirely:

 

[mjb203]

I suspect Krem will be remembered mostly for something else entirely:

And that right there is the reason I always go for the Qunari alliance. I despise seeing Krem sitting like that every time I walk in the tavern.

[9TailsFox]

I suspect Krem will be remembered mostly for something else entirely:

 

This . Krem just stand on chair for me not sit.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I suspect Krem will be remembered mostly for something else entirely:

 

 

My first Inquisitor was a dwarf, so when I first noticed his weird habit, I wondered if he was mocking her .

[OhNoWhyHow]

That's a bit like saying Varric would be utterly forgettable if he weren't really funny. And you kind of DO see that in DAI.

 

Well, I've said before that Varric basically serves no notable function in DAI.  I love Varric but I wish he'd stayed in DAII, or else that the devs had given him something meaningful to do.

[Dieb]

And that right there is the reason I always go for the Qunari alliance. I despise seeing Krem sitting like that every time I walk in the tavern.

 

Have you ever been the headmaster of a school that one Ferris Bueller attended?

[In Exile]

Well, I've said before that Varric basically serves no notable function in DAI. I love Varric but I wish he'd stayed in DAII, or else that the devs had given him something meaningful to do.

Varric doesn't really serve a function in DA2 besides being the narrator. His being a writer (Tale of the Champion) is about as integral as Krem being an outcast. He's just a sassy sidekick so people like him. But really DA2s whole plot barely justifies itself when you remove the obvious fact Hawke was meant to be the one stuck with the Anchor.